ECF, Catholicism, and Scripture Alone

This is a split thread from Protestant Service vs. Mass

We Catholics do have a personal relationship with Jesus. We received him weekly on Sundays, and daily Mass for those who are able to received the Body and Blood of the Lord worthily.

To be honest with you, I’m not looking for affirmation. What Catholics believe is up to them, but they shouldn’t kid themselves. If the Scripture can’t stand alone, it is worthless. If it needs tradition to be complete, it violates what it says about itself. I don’t “attack” just because I disagree. I think there is a sad truth that, when a person feels they have lost ground in a discussion, the natural defense is to become a “victim” - thus the “Catholic bashing” bandwagon.

The Catholic Church and many Catholics who remain obedient to her teachings based their belief on Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium of the Church. We don’t put Scripture aside.

As for logic - it most definately is on the side of Protestantism. This is one of the great differences between Catholics and Protestants - when running up against logical problems, Catholics will inevitably claim that key tenets of their faith are “mysteries”.

“en arche en ho logos, kai ho logos en pros ton theon, kai theos en ho logos.”

They are mysterious because God’s nature cannot be explained by human reasons. No one here truly understand how God can be One God but three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We leave it to our faith to believe in the Trinity. It was the Church who doctrinated the Trinitarian doctrine.

In the beginning was the “word”, not “tradition”. The logos is logic. God doesn’t expect us to follow Him by turning around everytime something gets difficult - and calling it a “mystery”.

For centuries, Catholics discouraged the reading of scripture because of the obvious incongruities with Catholic teaching. The Magisterium has had hundreds of years to come up with answers to these Biblical problems, but that’s all they have done - come up with answers - but not necessarily the right ones. Many of those answers are in confllict with Scripture, but are believed by millions anyway.

I see you do lack any knowledge about history. The Catholic did not discourage reading the Scripture. If they did, the Scripture would not be read in the Liturgies for people to hear. What the Catholic Church did was discourage reading erroneous translation of the Bible. Since the start of the printing press, there were some early translation of the Bible like the Wyncliff Bible that contain errors on it. The Church condemned it and said any translation of the Bible need to have footnotes from the Church to prevent it from any form of misinterpretation.

The Wyncliff Bible by the way have the 73 OT Books and the 27 NT books.

They are not in conflict with Scripture. We Catholics intepret the Bible in the ful context of both the OT and NT. Unlike Protestantism which only PICK and CHOSE what ought to be believed.

I leave you with these points that I hope will come to mind when you continue your studies:

“Come now, let us reason together,”
says the LORD. Isaiah 1:18

(there is no room for “mystery” when reasoning out, and working out your salvation)

One more thing - when Paul was addressing the Bereans, and he noticed they measured everything he was saying against the Scriptures, he commended them. He didn’t say “Uh, wait a minute, you should really consider what Peter had to say about this.” And he didn’t suggest that they should turn to their tradition for help. He also didn’t suggest that they merely continue in ritual and be comfortable there. He advocated the Scriptures as the ultimate source of truth - God breathed.

He also said to “hold fast the traditions that we have taught you either by letter or word of mouth.” Second, Peter have authority, he is the first to speak during the Pentecost, and the first to speak in the Council of Jerusalem, and he is always listed first amongst the Apostles.


Second you commented about Catholics being the largest group of Christians.

They are but the majority of them do not practice nor they believe in the teaching authority of the Church because they are poorly catechized in the faith.

There are only a few of us who are practicing our faith, and many of them are in here in the Forum defending the Catholic Church, and evangelicizing fellow Catholics either through RCIA programs (RCIA programs that remain consistent with the teaching of the Church).

I pray for these caferia Catholics for their conversion. Numbers doesn’t mean anything to me, I am only concern with their souls. Catholics ought to be obedient to the Church because Jesus gave the Church authority.

I was Catholic for 34 years and what I found was that most Catholics do not know their own faith well at all. They seem to be the type of people who wish to be led blindly. I believe that if they began to gain knowledge of Catholic doctrine, they would be leaving the church in droves. I left the church when I realized that the truth cannot possibly remain to be the truth over time if you apply 100% Catholic logic to it. It is impossible!

Most don’t know their faith due to poor instruction of the faith. I disagree with you that if they gain knowledge of Catholic doctrine they would leave in droves.

Many of the converts from Protestants to Catholic convert because they study Christian history, they read the writings of the ECF, documents from the Church Councils, and they find the Catholic Church has complete fullness of truth.

Scott Hahn attest to this testimony, Alex Jones, Steve Ray, Jimmy Akin, Tim Staples, David Currie, Cardinal Newman, Pat Madrid. These men studied the Bible and Christian Church in history. They were lead by the Holy Spirit that Jesus established One Church, and this Church is Catholic.

Since 1990s there has been many Protestant ministers and others who converted to the Catholic Church. Even James White’s own sister Patty Patrick Bond who is through her study of St. Patrick lead her to the Catholic faith.

St. Ignatius of Antioch first came up with the word Catholic in his letters to the Smyrnaeans in 110 AD.

He wrote:

((continue on to the other thread))

Traveller - some basic netiquette dictates it is time to stand up or stand down.

In the scant 15 posts you have merrily spread accross CAF you have mostly written a sentence or two or three as to why you are NOT Catholic with gems like:

***Why does the Roman Catholic church really lack that zeal for fellowship and out reach?

***If faith alone were not true, then how could a man who sinned graveously his entire life be saved just breaths before death by our one and true savior himself? Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise, not if you say a set number of Hail Mary’s and such maybe you will make it through purgatory. ***

***There are many reasons why I left Catholicism and social behavior is just merely one of the smaller reasons. True tradition and doctrine would be two much larger ones.

I’m really sorry that you look at it that way. If you really and truly believe that God wishes you to be guilt ridden your entire life, than I think unfortunately you have missed the boat.

My favorite barb being the most recent:

I left the church when I realized that the truth cannot possibly remain to be the truth over time if you apply 100% Catholic logic to it. It is impossible!

And it makes it all the harder to see this comment as ANYTHING by disingenuous:

*** Very sad that we can’t consider each other at least somewhat in focus together.***

Traveler, if you want to discuss the Catholic Faith here great. If you want to discuss questions you had over matters that lead you to leave, very good. If you want to get a feel for Catholic sensibilities on certain matters beyond your parochial world-view of your individual experience, wonderful.

If you don’t share Catholic views - we can live with that. If you disagree with us and play nicely, that is spectacular - there is room for that. If you want to post thoughtful posts that are a little longer than three-sentences and have a back and forth dialogue rather than make broad claims like “the truth cannot possibly remain to be the truth over time if you apply 100% Catholic logic to it. It is impossible!”, well let’s talk.

But to pop in and out of threads it begs the question:

Are you hear to discuss difference, and ask questions, or to troll the forum with snide comments about how Catholocism got this that and the other thing wrong, and after 34 years you saw the light and became an Anglican?

What are you here to do?