Help! I'm trapped in the Twilight Zone! PA says "respect choice."

Catholic Living Family Life
#1

In a recent thread, I shared with you the views of our Pastor regarding the abortion issue (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1230).

In our June 6th weekly parish newsletter, our Pastorial Associate followed this up with an admonition to us “fundamentalists” to “respect choice” on life issues (when this column becomes available electronically I will add it to this thread). My initial reaction was to send her an email to ask for clarification on her use of the word “choice” (actually my initial reaction was to tell my wife I have had it and we are changing parishes, but I calmed down and am continuing to fight for MY parish.) I have yet to receive a reply.

In the same column she goes on about how the Church used to call God “mother” and that “change is messy” and we “usually” achieve change through disobedience of Rome. The entire column was sort of a heredoxical buffet this week. I suspect it may have been in response to outrage at the Pastor’s column cited above.

I will contact the Bishop, but I am convinced it will be a waste of time. Sometimes I think I live in the most theologically challenged diocese in the country.

As Catholics, we are called to “hate the sin but love the sinner.” But “respect choice???” I feel like I am in a bad episode of the Twilight Zone, when I find myself arguing for pro-life issues with a priest and a PA :banghead: .

#2

I am in the Rochester diocese. It is a constant struggle. Please keep fighting for the Truth.

#3

I know the feeling. My University Catholic Center is uber-Heterdox. I am contemplating moving to a local parish that is more conservative for my Sunday Mass. Sounds like your pastoral associate is a little left of center theologically. If being pro-life and pro-Magisterium is to be a Fundamentalist. I am a Fundamentalist.

The Pastoral Associate at my Church calls the Holy Spirit “She,” wants Women Priests, and pretty much sounds like a combination of your priest and PA. Think of it as purgatory on earth. Really, “respect choice” – I think not. You love the person who had the abortion, but you HATE THE ABORTION. Loving someone is telling them that they made a mistake, that they are in error. It means telling that person that her abortion was wrong. To use a hypothetical.

I guess I am a Fundamentalist, cool. I think Karl needs to retitle his work. Fundamental Catholicism and Fundamentalism.

#4

I think I sense a change of venue coming up.

Given what your pastor said, I’ll guess that he won’t tell the pastoral associate to alter the rhetoric, and there seems little likelihood that either one of them will be open to criticism.

#5

Oy vey! I will pray for you.

Actually, that is not a bad start. Challenge her: “The choice to do what?” Choice is not an empty word, you need to choose something. Make her be explicit, whether it be to admit “the choice to deny the constant teaching of the Church” or the “choice to kill an unborn baby” – Make her explicitly admit what her loaded words are pointing to.

In the same column she goes on about how the Church used to call God “mother” and that “change is messy” and we “usually” achieve change through disobedience of Rome.

Again: Challenge her. “Change what?”

#6

While we don’t want to become parish “shoppers” - changing parishes for frivolous reasons until we find one that “fits” us - I have no problem switching from a parish that is not teaching the truth in union with the Church to one that does. Especially if children are involved, it is not worth eroding the faith of your family or endangering their grasp on truth in order to try to “save” such a parish.

I just had this “debate” with my moral theology class (high school), but we had already prefaced the debate with an understanding of true freedom and the role of law and authority. Students fairly readily came to the conclusion that “pro-choice” on the abortion issue is a fallacy. Two students held out due to strong political/parental influences, but even they came to respect the pro-life standpoint (“I see what you are saying , but I just can’t accept it right now”). Sharing the truth with those who are open but misinformed is fruitful, but trying to convince those whose hearts are hardened takes a lot more effort and energy. It may best be done from the “outside” in the case of a parish like yours.

#7

I hope you don’t mind me adding my experience quickly. I returned to the Church a couple of years ago. I originally met with an 80 year old priest who was great but “Old school”. I moved to years later to the next town over and met with a preist right out of seminary. He did not believe ion the devil and didn’t think highly of Pope John Paul II because of his opposition to women priests. I was floored. I spoke to the priest of my former Parish and he was outraged. He said this is what is taught in seminary nowadays.

I commend you for fighting for your parish. That’s my attitude. I’m not going anywhere a few others parisheners and myself speak up when something doesn’t sound right.

#8

Shame on any christian that goes against the Word of God. Be bold,be strong, for thy Lord your God is with you. No choice is a choice. :confused:

#9

Yes, and let us remember that God is pro-choice as He states in–
Deut. 30:19 *
I call heaven and earth today to witness against you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. **Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live, ***

Kotton :wink:

#10

Saw a great bumper sticker the other day:

“Some choices are WRONG!”

#11

I’m in the same place. And heart problems aside, I don’t think Bishop C. is going anywhere too soon.

My biggest complaint with our Bishop isn’t that he promotes heresy, but that he doesn’t do nearly enough to quash it. It’s like he’s the invisible Bishop. The only thing he seems interested in sharing with the flock is stories of his nephews.

My parish is also pretty liberal- less so since the old pastor retired and was replaced with a nun pastoral administrator. My solution: I started getting involved in the church committees. I felt I could present a more conservative view point and encourage the other parishoners to also speak their minds. Now I’ve been asked to join the parish council where I can really have some influence!

#12

Part 1,

Gods peace be with you Theophilus,

I agree with SPOKENWORD, never go against Gods Word. God gave us the Catholic Church and the magisterium. These two authorities gave us the Bible with all 73 Books as inspired by God. Nowhere in those 73 Books nor in the Catechism does it say to ignore or reject His authority in His Church. Nowhere does it say to murder the innocent. Your priest needs a good Bible/Catechism study. This just shows that all religions have some bad clergy. You have found one in Christ’s body.

You may have to find a new parish, but first fight for yours. Perhaps God has chosen you to be there for a purpose? Changing parishes is OK but leaving Christ’s Church is not as written in Gods Word. So first, try to talk with other members of the parish and get involved to change things. Write letters and get others to write them also to the Bishop and others. The more letters the better. Also make sure everyone in the parish knows the ‘heresy’ your priest is teaching.

What is the difference between the ovens at Auschwitz and an abortion parlor? Is the guard at Auschwitz murdering Jews any different then a murderer in an abortion parlor? Murder is murder from conception onward. Your ‘priest’ needs to know this. Ask him why his help in murdering babies is any different then an accomplice in murder. He might as well do the killing himself if he is preaching for others to do it. Was the camp commander at a concentration camp innocent because he didn’t actually to the killing, only approved of it and encouraged others?

Martin Luther was a Catholic monk that taught Satanically ‘inspired’ theology and look what happened to him and Christ’s Church as a result after 1517. His uninspired theology has led to countless protestant sects now approving of abortion which has appeared to infect your priest.

Here is a short history of contraception in the US that led to our present delima: http://members.aol.com/insight944/APOL/Contracep.html .

The Pope is the leader of Christ’s body and has the ‘keys’ and ‘authority’ as granted him by Jesus Christ. His job is to preserve the deposit of faith that your priest is eroding away just like that evil monk in 1517. We obey the Pope so as to keep the Faith and Morals that Jesus gave His Church. Jesus promised to be with His Church till the end of time. She is the only Church that does not change Gods Word precisely because we do have authority that will act when needed to preserve Gods Word.

#13

Part 2,

Tell your priest if wants to believe any ‘whim and fancy’ there are over 33,000 protestant sects he can join. If he still can’t find a sect he likes he can start one up himself:bigyikes: . If he wants to be Catholic and stay in the body of Christ then he needs to obey Christ’s Church on matters of Faith and Morals – period. We can and do have a right to picket or protest leaders in our Church on many issues. Abortion is not one of them, it is a crime against God.

An unborn child murdered in its mothers womb never has a chance to vote, until it can vote, we must vote for it, in its favor. This issue is a single issue to decide whether or not to vote for a candidate. See the Catholic voting guide elsewhere on this web site for things that are a litmus test for Christian votes. We cannot vote pro-abortion regardless of virtually any other issue the politician is for.

Pray for your parish religious, they need it:bowdown: . Show them the following:

Psalm 71:6 “6 On you I depend since birth; from my mother’s womb you are my strength; my hope in you never wavers.”

Psalm 127:3 “Children too are a gift from the LORD, the fruit of the womb, a reward.”

Job 31:15 “15 Did not he who made me in the womb make him? Did not the same One fashion us before our birth?”

Jer 1:5 “5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you.”

Catechism:

“[2258](javascript:OpenPopupWindow() “Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being.””

“[2261](javascript:OpenPopupWindow() Scripture specifies the prohibition contained in the fifth commandment: “Do not slay the innocent and the righteous.” The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. The law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.”

The Holy Father is right, your priest is wrong.

Please give your priest directions to this forum!:yup:

A prisoner of Christ

#14

Malachi, I would like to bring up the Keys that was given to Peter. I want you to know I recieved one of those keys. Jesus gave those keys to Peter to distribute to His church. In recieving one of these keys I have been set free from the chains and bondage of satan. I am free and with this key [CHRIST} I can walk through the gates of the kingdom. Peter went on to establish the church along with all of the other appostles. That church is catholic [universal]. That church is the Body of Christ, and I am part of the body and so is any christian. Its not about any denomination, its about Christ living in us. We are His church. With this key {Christ] I have the power in the name of Jesus Christ to loose and bind here on this earth,{ not reserved for the select few]. My prayer is for unity in the Body of Christ, that we as christians will come through the gates of heaven with the Keys that were distributed by Peter through His church.

#15

Spokenword, I too pray for the union of all christians. I am thankful for your love of Jesus and your willingness to follow Him. I too want to give Him my all.

Were do you find this idea of everyone being given the keys. From my reading of the Word, Jesus gave the keys to Peter. Jesus gave all the apostles to power to bind and loose but only gave the keys to Peter. When were the keys passes out?

It is not consistent with the type of “keys” Isaiah 22:15-25 and even before that when Pharoah gave Joseph power over his house. Genesis 41:39-40 "So Pharoah said to Joseph, “Since God has shown you all this, there is none so discreet and wise as you are; you shall be over my house, and all my people shall order themselves as you command; only as regards to the throne will I be greater than you.”

As Catholics, we read the old with the new. Can you show any instance in the OT were they were told to share authority. Moses is a type of Jesus and shares his authority only with the 70 That is why 70 as used in the NT.
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#16

I agree, you should stay and battle it out (besides, according to the postings from others in your diocese it doesn’t sound like you have an abundance of other alternatives available). But know that you have a looooooong battle ahead of you. And as Swami Karl points out, it is unlikely either the priest or p.a. will budge. Your only hope is to unite others in the common cause and call attention to the TRUTH. People will listen.

But I have one concern. If you have children in religious education, youth ministry, etc. you may want to consider changing parishes anyway or enrolling them in the programs of another parish. Depending on their ages, they don’t need this kind of rubbish infiltrating their brains (a well-grounded older teen however could be quite helpful in properly catechising his/her fellow teens).

#17

Stories like this are simply heartbreaking to me. I cannot help but think of some of the Saints’ visions of hell, where the worst suffering was reserved for Priests and others in the Church who, rather than lead many to heaven, actually led many to hell.

Please, please, pray for all priests and others who are espousing unfaithful doctrine. They need our prayers big time, and so do all those who blindly follow them on the path to destruction.

I see nothing wrong with a change in venue, but keep them in your prayers always.

#18

I know that we all need to stand and fight for our Church. I urge you all to keep up the fight. However, while fighting, you still need to protect your children…find a more orthodox parish asap. It will be too confusing for them if mom and dad say one thing and the priest says another. jkmcl

#19

Believe me, it’s tough on the other side of the ambo, too! In April, after Senator Kerry decided to host his own pro abortion rally in DC, my homily discussed, in no uncertain terms, the issue of “Catholics” who publicly and persistently sin and their right to receive Holy Communion. The aftermath was interesting, with the vast majority of the parishioners’ comments VERY positive, and a very few (four or five who contacted me) coming down on the liberal side of things.My email conversations that week were quite heated, believe me!
Those five also contacted the pastor, who then reamed me out and threatened to remove me from the preaching rotation if I discussed “controversial” (read “conservative”) topics in my homilies. He said that we have to be “pastoral” (read "wishy-washy) and that we have to minister to everyone. (Read here, “don’t upset the liberals”)
I consider myself simply a minister of the Gospel, proclaiming the word and telling it like it is. And I think that reminding EVERYONE of their responsibilities as Catholics IS ministering to everyone!
I’m waiting for another opportunity to explain Church teaching on one of these issues. It’ll be interesting what happens! :
I’ve attached that homily slightly edited for length. You guys tell me - was I out of line?

#20

This is outrageous and well, perhaps worse than outrageous. Yet in so many posts here and in other Catholic discussions I hear how it’s useless to contact the bishop or archbishop. Either they are afraid of controversy, or they themselves are part of the problem. But how can one go higher that a bishop? I mean, way out there in Rome, surrounded by conniving, political, subserviant Cardinals each with their own power agenda, and many of them also traitors to the Faith, does the Holy Father actually know, I wonder, of the terrible, almost catastrophic, condition of the Church in the United States? Is prayer our only weapon? The frustration I hear all around me from friends and family, young and old, is amazing, from all parts of the country. People are leaving the church in droves, not for the appeals of protestantism, but because the Church is becoming protestant itself! Or worse, an amalgamation of liberal politics, psuedo-theology and goddess-worship theories. This is so even in the monasteries. It’s hard to fight when no one cares…I mean if your bishop unresponsive, what can you do?