Is This Masturbation???

Apologetics Moral Theology
#1

Hi,
I’ll try to be as delicate as possible but may use terms some find offensive so please note this before reading further:

Yes Church say masturbation is a grave sin. It define masturbation as the manipulation of the genitals for sexual pleasure.

Now here is what has happened to me twice now. With no external stimulation I retire to bed. I will then become aroused through no conscious acts. Almost as if my body is saying “it’s time”. Thoughts will naturally wonder in a direction of sex. I can usually keep the graphic details from manifesting. But my arousal will increase. I used to really struggle with this and generally it would go away without any grand praying or worrying. But quite often a very restless night.

Recently I stopped fighting it. As I said twice now as I lay perfectly still in bed; the the arousal will totally climax into a full blown orgasm. No rubbing, no touching. In fact knowing how I am I will make sure my penis is not touching a sheet or anything to stimulate it. I don’t move my body at all. Just giving myself the freedom to feel this seems to be all it takes.

Yes the thoughts of of a woman (none in particular) are present but more as an embrace not a masturbatory fantasy…Same thoughts I’ve had without sexual arousal…

Wet dreams are perfectly fine and these just feel like semi controlled ones. Those are ghenerally associatted with some quite vivid imagry! I’ll have a wet dream once or twice a month…but this time … Yes I’m wide awake. Yes it feels real good! One benefit seems to be a complete release. I have had dreams where I was approaching climax and feeling guilty stopped it with physical pain.

I think the pleasure is throwing me. In reality it’s just an incredible release! I’ve not tried to conjour this up but feel that may be tempting worse habits. But my goodness what doesn’t tempt us as humans! If I’ve resolved to not to initiate this, not to stimulate physically…

Since I returned the Catholic Church and learned of the sin of masturbation I have only twice done so and those in quick more of a release to get to sleep. No grand productions as in years past. The guilt was horrible and I ran to confession! I don’t like the way I feel after that and have no desire for any guilt!

I don’t feel the guilt like that now. This happened last night.

Is this common? What do you think?

T

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#2

Iv’e had this happen to me also. At one time I reasoned that it was not a sin. Then I started to reason that if this was not a sin, going a bit further would not be a sin. Before I knew it I was trying to rationalize that masturbation was not a sin. So for me, at the very least, this is a near occasion of sin. I have resolved to fight this, although it usually ends in a wet dream within the next day or two.

It sounds like you may have more self control than I do, so your experience may be different; but I would refrain from this. I know what you mean about the physical pain of stopping.

#3

Sex and the unmarried Catholic poses problems…to be sure!

I know I have done physical harm by denying an ejaculation. It’s called retrograde ejaculation (look it up if interested) and not a good thing.

I’ve actually woke up during a wet dream imagining I was really with this woman and noticing that I’m committing an immoral act (in the dream) and had the so called retrograde ejaculation which is painful and not good.

Ya know since masturbation is probably the worst of the real common sins don’t you think the Church should really spell it out for us. The idea that it’s grave and in fact a mortal sin under circumstances seems contrary to Christ’s teaching to me. Now directed fantasy based with prolonged external stimulation and imagery is obviously not good for the soul. But as I said the several times I had a “hands on” experience it was quick and just to release the anxiety and to prevent the retrograde ejaculation which is harmful.

One of the masturbations was reconciled in a face to face prolonged confession. Father said it wasn’t a mortal sin as it was more in the form of a release, but the nature of the act prevented us, or me from expanding the discussion. Face it we don’t start these sort of discussions with just anyone anywhere.

Advice outside the Catholic Church is masturbation is real good and healthy so I won’t be looking there for answers. Like I said getting the entire production as males can do is obviously against Church and natural law as i see it. But being sexual beings and sex a great thing between married couples how can more simple releases be considered contrary to Christ? If not lustful or habitual?

T

#4

I don’t really have an answer for you on whether this is a sin (given the definition of masterbation, I don’t think it qualifies as that), but, how old are you? I know that spontaneous erections (don’t know if that’s the right term) are quite common w/ younger guys, and totally out of their control, so you’re surely not culpable for the original erection. The rest, I don’t know. You’re not touching yourself, but you are letting your mind wander a bit to the fantasy (although not pornographic) realm, correct? That’s the only part that, to me, may be problematic. What happens if you don’t try to stop it, but don’t “think nice thoughts” about it either (either try to keep your mind blank, or think about baseball or something?). If it continues on it’s own into an orgasm then I wouldn’t think it would be your fault at all (same as a wet dream).

My only consolation is that, if you are young (teens, early 20’s), this will likely dimish considerably as you age, especially if you marry. I will warn you that it may not go away entirely, though. My dh is 39, and still has spontaneous erections (during the day, totally uninvited, i.e., no attractive woman walking by or anything) and wet dreams on occasion (and not just when we’re abstaining during my fertile period to avoid a pregnancy), so if this is really causing problems w/ guilt, you may want to bring on the big prayers to stop it as it begins (or think about baseball, or someone you find totally unattractive naked, anything that works :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: ). I’ll keep you in my prayers.

In Christ,

Ellen

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#5

The issue here is that instead of continuing to fight, you just let it happen… we must remember sin is as much omission in many ways as comission. It is one thing to say I fought it and did not desire it. It is another thing to just sit there and do nothing hoping nothing happens (I mean would we sit there if we saw unstable ladder that could fall on a child below… and say oh I hope it does not fall… no we would do the best we could to prevent it).

Remember the devil uses an idle mind as his chariot to lead us from the innocent to the impure. But there is Good News because you can put him on hold by being on the phone with God (Sorry my grandmother had a funny sign saying keep love, patience and kindness on the phone so when sloth, lust, greed, envy, ect call, they will get a busy signal and will probably forget your number after awhile).

My suggestion: Get a good and holy book to read a little before bed whether lives of the saints or an encyclical, or the bible of course. That way you fall asleep to thinking about God and Satan will be on hold. If you do fall into temptation say the Saint Michael prayer or something quick prayer until it subsides like “Jesus help me a poor sinner.” If after doing those things, something still happens then you are innocent of such a thing happening or at most a venial sin if you briefly entertained impure thoughts. Yes it is a struggle like all crosses are, Paul had a thorn in the flesh as well, but it keeps us humble and helps us to see how much we truly need God and can do nothing on our own as our Lord told us.
Many Prayers, DB

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#6

[PLEASE NOTE I MAY OFFEND SOME WITH MY HONESTY AND LANGUAGE]

I can see why so many frown upon Catholicism as the question of causing physical harm doesn’t enter the equation.

Sex is good. An orgasm and ejaculation are good! They feel good! How many of us don’t wake up after a particular wet dream feeling quite satisfied?

I’m 47. I get several erections a day…so hundreds per year. I have a wet dream about once a month. Several times I hurt myself by worrying about the guilt and conciuosly halting the progress. As I said it’s called retrograde ejaculation where the semen is forced into the bladder. That’s not a good thing…very unhealthy in any conversation.

So, and we’ll see how this goes, I have been letting the feeling manifest by their own feelings. No imagery nor stimulation just a straight shot from flacid to what is actually a quite larger than normal experience.

It’s actually quite a liberating experience! As pleasurable as it is it feels more like a body process than sex or masturbation…

Is allowing ourselves to feel good a sin?

Oddly a quick search on line doesn’t provide much about this physiologically speaking. Certain anti-depressants could cause this but I’m drug free. A small amount of stress in my life but nothing too tragic. I really can’t explain it…

Perhaps it’s like anything that is a great pleasure like a huge brownie or an eclair or something. I know I shouldn’t but it’s only occational…and I’ll feel worse later… This is like eating the brownie and having it too so it’s an interesting guilt situation.

It would just be nice to not have to worry about sex…

T

#7

Things that feel good are not necessarily good. Dying to ones own desires is painful, yes, but that is what it means to take up one’s cross daily and follow Him.
Masturbation does not have to be a physical stimulation… stimulation is stimulation and as you admit you desire the feelings that you get. Same thing goes for wet dreams… desiring them or rejoicing over the pleasure one may experience from them or entertaining the dream for that sake is still wrong. God gave purpose to the parts of our body and to seek the reward (pleasure) without the fulfilling the purpose is wrong. It is like putting an exclamation mark without having a sentence before it… the pleasure is meaningless by itself.
Retrograde ejaculation in itself does not do damage to you really, so I do not see your arguement there.
Finally, the most important thing I think you need to ask yourself is why I get to this point? No you let your mind be idle? Do you watch tv shows or movies of a sexual nature or stuff online in print or pictures? Do you try to grow closer to the Lord each day in prayer, and seek help through Our Lady through prayer especially the rosary? Do you have an opportunity to seek out Spiritual Direction from another? Could you go to mass more often than you currently are? Do you spend time in front of the Blessed Sacrament or have a chance to do Eucharistic Adoration?

The reason I say this is not to sound accusatory that you must not care about your faith, but in our life especially at momens of struggle we should know God is closer than he feels (just ask Jesus who stayed on a cross for us, which was more pain than we could ever imagine, even though he did not have to… he could have chosen that which would not cause him pain, but he chose to be obedient to his father thereby giving us an example). Throw your pains and temptations on the Lord and the Sheperd will lead you through the valley my brother. Otherwise, what fleeting pleasure this is, will hurt your relationships with others, and most importantly God. This trouble with arousal is worth the fight (and only through Christ can we win), because everlasting life with Him is worth the sacrifice (sell all you have for the pearl in the field my brother).

#8

[LANGUAGE WARNING!!!]

That’s silly! Of course it’s not good and we have to reset our discussion.
Now as I understand it the ONLY place for my semen is in my wife.
Specifically in her vagina. Not on her or other places in her. Specifically via intercourse inside her.

Am I wrong? I know sodomy is definatly wrong! as is homosexuality. What about oral sex? Or playing with ones wife where the semen is on her as a result?

So retrograde ejaculation is not only harmful it’s depositing the semen in my bladder which is then eliminated via urination…That to me is patently un natural! The pain of that and complications make that obvious.

Certain facts;
Males create semen that must be released periodically.
This release is pleasurable.

What we’re trying to do is relieve the guilt associatted with a natural act. The previous post suggests enjoying a good dream not so good…c’mon!

Seculars suggest masturbation part of the male estate. Since there HAS to be a periodic release why would this be wrong? Females may have urges but I’m unsure if there is a physiological cause and effect. Regardless of what you or I think/ beleive I will continue to have ejaculations/orgasms (there is a difference).
Once again I clearly see that an ochestrated production of lustful masturbation that is initiated for the sole purpose of pleasure is sinful on several levels depending upon the individual.

But can the natural release, the natural process of the body be a wrong thing be a sin? Does this all center around where the semen ends up? Is it the pleasure associated with it? To merely be laying in bed with out even visual stimulation nor any contact and enjoying the natural process. Could it be any wronger than ejaculating ON my wife? And is THAT a sin?

Sorry for some of the language and ideas. Sex is naturally a subject we find hard to talk about sometimes as suggestions can snowball to emotions-actions etc…But I guess I have more questions than I knew.

Thanks,
T

#9

Of course all of this is good, why would it not be as that is the way that God created it so that we would share that love with our spouse to bring about new life. But let me say this (with all due respect) you have missed the point of what sex is and why it is a gift to us from God. Sex is not about the feeling of that orgasm. You are focusing on the wrong feeling here. True, it does feel good, but it is so much more than that.

The marital embrace is about a husband and wife coming to gether in a renewal of their wedding vows. They give themselves to each other, freely, totally, faithfully, and fruitfully. They are uniting with each other in the deepest and most expressive way of sharing their love as a married couple with each other. While the entire time being open to new life given to them by God.

Sex is not about an orgasm. That is one of the effects of the sexual act as is the pleasure that is derived from that act, but it cannot be the essential purpose or the main motivation for that act.

Jesus Christ once told us “this is my body, give up for you, take it…” and that is what we say to each other, as husband and wife, when we engage in this act. We give all that we are to our spouse in this most intimate moment.

I would assume that most women do not. However, aside from that, your feeling of ‘satisfaction’ with a wet dream are, again, a side effect of the act of ejaculation. The main purpose of that wet dream as we all know is the release of that exess sperm and semen that the body has created.

So you are saying that you are a normal functioning male, check.

If we are not culpable for this act, what is the reason to halt or stop it?

So I would think that the logical thing to do would be to not do this?

Are you alseep when all of this happens or is this something that happens while you wake up throughout the night?

As pleasureable as this may seem, if it is truly a wet dream then I fail to see how you are committing any sin. If you are somehow allowing yourself to have this orgasm/ejaculation by some other means, I think that you are walking a fine line with using your God given sexuality in a way that it was not intended.

It depends on that the “feel good” of the act is. Sure it may feel good to have sex with someone other than your spouse, but since it feels good is it not a sin?

To me, it seems as if this is a situation that you can take care of easily, but I question if that is your true desire. If the momentary pleasure of this orgasm that you can or cannot control is more important to you than the truth of what sex really is?

#10

Correct.

Correct

3 for 3

You are batting 1.000

Right

Oral sex/stimulation of one’s spouse as a means of foreplay is okay within the marital embrace to orgasm for the female (before or after sexual intercouse) and the husband must have his orgasm inside his wife’s vagina.

Semen should not be on her, it should be in her.

Again, I think that your focus needs to be on how you can stop this from happening.

Are there are right ways and wrong ways for this to happen.

Are we to follow what the “seculars” suggest? It is wrong because Jesus Christ says that it is wrong.

And they can occur in the proper way.

Natural by whose definition? The “seculars?” They would say a natural process is masturbation.

It centers around God’s meaning and desire for creating the sexual act. Please read JPII’s Theology of the Body or the summaries of this work by Christopher West.

Again, pleasure is a side effect of these acts.

It is not a matter of what is “wronger” or which is worse. They both go against God’s desire for the sexual union.

Absolutely.

Suggested reading “The Good News About Sex and Marriage” by Christopher West

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#11

Now here is what has happened to me twice now. With no external stimulation I retire to bed. I will then become aroused through no conscious acts. Almost as if my body is saying “it’s time”. Thoughts will naturally wonder in a direction of sex. I can usually keep the graphic details from manifesting. But my arousal will increase. I used to really struggle with this and generally it would go away without any grand praying or worrying. But quite often a very restless night.

The Church teaching is pretty clear on the culpability regarding this sin. If you fall asleep, are beset with “erotic” dreams and wake in the midst, your cooperation with this sin is mitigated as you are not in full control of your free will. Having some type of spontaneous release (or even encouraging one) during these compromised moments is not your fault. But what you are describing appears to be different (correct me if I’m wrong!). You claim this happens when you “retire” and that your thoughts just “wander” without your participation. Sorry, but that sounds odd. If you are still fully conscious as you “retire to bed”, you are still in control of both thoughts and actions. This is the perfect time to grab hold of the rosary and recite the prayers.

Recently I stopped fighting it. As I said twice now as I lay perfectly still in bed; the the arousal will totally climax into a full blown orgasm.

Again, how could this happen unless you are allowing your mind to “wander” onto thoughts that provoke such a response? Whether they are of a pornographic nature or not, it may be that any thoughts of a sensual nature stir this type of reaction for you. Sometimes even concentrating or becoming aware of physical responses themselves can generate inappropriate pleasures. Your decision to “stop fighting it” is worrisome. As an other poster stated, simply remaining complacent is the first step towards the “loophole express”.

Yes the thoughts of of a woman (none in particular) are present but more as an embrace not a masturbatory fantasy…Same thoughts I’ve had without sexual arousal…

Well, in this particular situation (during the very vulnerable moments when we lay down to sleep), such seemingly innocent thoughts may be all that is needed to for arousal. You alone know the truth here. If engaging in thoughts that would be innocent in other situations is causing the response, it would seem obvious that redirecting your thoughts would help alleviate this problem.

Wet dreams are perfectly fine and these just feel like semi controlled ones.

Choo-Choo! Here comes that express I was talking about…

Those are ghenerally associatted with some quite vivid imagry! I’ll have a wet dream once or twice a month…but this time … Yes I’m wide awake.

Your admission here tells you all you need to know about your responsibility in this sin. What happens to us during sleep is not our fault. The argument could be made that God designed us so beautifully that he provided this “built in” mechanism for “relieving” biological “needs”. But generating this response on our own is a different story altogether.

Yes it feels real good! One benefit seems to be a complete release. I have had dreams where I was approaching climax and feeling guilty stopped it with physical pain.

Trying to stop something that happens during sleep is not an obligation for a Catholic. However, let’s not get all hung-up on the “physical pain” aspect. You can do all the research you wish on this topic but the FACT is you will not die or do permanent harm to yourself by preventing this “release”.

But my goodness what doesn’t tempt us as humans! If I’ve resolved to not to initiate this, not to stimulate physically…

Again, it may be that you do not NEED to engage physically for this response to occur. It may be that “innocent” thoughts are enough. Does that mean you should continue to engage in these thoughts when you obviously know they bring about this response?

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#12

Trust me…if there was enough willingness to post and honesty in reporting the scope of personal struggles with sexual urges and satisfying them through a variety of sexual and non-sexual experiences you would find you are NOT alone–and that includes the girls.

I’ll give you an honest (perhaps redfaced) for’instance: I have on any number of occasions had professional massages. NEVER anything other than professional, therapeutic and non-sexual in nature. There have nonetheless been several occasions where they have, quite unexpectedly, resulted in an orgasm. Did I go with that intent? Certainly not. Was the activity remotely sexual or inappropriate? Not at all. But there are times when our physical bodies go in directions we don’t anticipate nor can completely control. Does this mean I should never again have a massage? Hope not, because my intent is never anything immoral and the occasional and unpredicatable outcome does not outweigh the other intended benefits of stress/pain relief I do get. I think it proves the truth of the adage that the brain, not the genitals is the most sensitive sexual organ in the body.

#13

Going with the same sentement that is expressed on this forum with regards to this kind of release, I would recommend that you stay away from massages if they occasionally lead to this type of disordered release. Health benefits of massage aside, you commit what the Church calls a ‘gravely disorded’ thing by being massaged, so you really should do without. Even if it wasn’t your intent.

Thats what everyone on here preaches, anyway.

Honestly, I don’t think any pastor would find sin in this. The Pharasees here will.

#14

Seems to me release and disordered release are a fine line…

Too much tension can lead to more graphic thoughts and actions.

there are degrees of sin with masturbation. Each time I’ve confessed (twice) it’s met with more of a “take it easy” approach by Father.
I’ve heard some extreme cases of masturbation. Just look on line!

Is it the repression that causes this?

Look … my Jesus Loves me! If He sees me slipping off a cliff he doesn’t turn his back even if I approached the cliff of my own accord.

Since this is a common sin don’t you think the Church should come out and make it clearer? A “gravely disordered act” doesn’t sit well. It condemning! I’m sure many have left the Church due to their in ability to conform a lifestyle to Church doctrine. Face it most of the world sees masturbation as healthy and natural so it’s not like stealing or killing where we all agree.

Too bad we can’t talk too openly about this. Internet forums are one thing but human compassion is as obvious.

Thanks,
T

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#15
#16

But He has given you the map to avoid the cliff.

#17

Seems to me release and disordered release are a fine line…

This makes no sense. There is no “disordered release”. The act of masturbation, which is the intent to achieve genital sexual pleasure outside the marital act, is disordered.

Too much tension can lead to more graphic thoughts and actions.

What does that even mean?

there are degrees of sin with masturbation. Each time I’ve confessed (twice) it’s met with more of a “take it easy” approach by Father.

There are degrees of CULPABILITY. As I described before, in a sleep state, such nocturnal “releases” would not be your responsibility. What you described is PARTICIPATION in the act while alert and awake.

I’ve heard some extreme cases of masturbation. Just look on line!

So?

Is it the repression that causes this?

Silly. The exact opposite argument can be made. People who engage in sexual license, whether through promiscuity or masturbation, are more likely to develop compulsive behaviors that imprison them in their addiction to sexual pleasure.

Look … my Jesus Loves me! If He sees me slipping off a cliff he doesn’t turn his back even if I approached the cliff of my own accord.

I don’t see that He is turning His back on you. Are you turning yours on Him by trying to justify something that may be a sin?

Since this is a common sin don’t you think the Church should come out and make it clearer?

She has been very clear.

A “gravely disordered act” doesn’t sit well.

It’s always uncomfortable to be confronted with the truth of sin.

It condemning!

Only for the guilty.

I’m sure many have left the Church due to their in ability to conform a lifestyle to Church doctrine. Face it most of the world sees masturbation as healthy and natural so it’s not like stealing or killing where we all agree.

If we use this world as our barometer of what is healthy and natural, we might as well throw in the towel on our walk with Christ right now. If you can’t see how the world’s view of right and wrong has turned humanity on it’s head, then perhaps you should take a history course. Now that the lines have been blurred and people are more confused than ever about morality, we have only to turn on the evening news to see where the values of this world have led us.

Too bad we can’t talk too openly about this. Internet forums are one thing but human compassion is as obvious.

I thought we were talking openly. Or is it approval you are seeking?

#18

I can’t help but put my two cents in about this.
It seems that our thinking in the area of sexual purity is very often clouded.
We need to emphasize the point that it’s the intentional stimulation of oneself that makes for masturbation, not the arousal or sexual pleasure that one derives from it.
I also think we very often create a lot of unnecessary grief for ourselves in this area by blaming God and being scandalized by our weaknesses. That kind of thinking gets you absolutely nowhere. God loves us. God has promised us that he tempts no one and always gives us a way out. He knows what we’re going through because here’s there along with us. Sometimes we just have to accept to struggle and fail. That doesn’t mean that God has set us up or let us down. We need to get used to the idea that doing what’s right often is painful and seems impossible to us. It takes time to learn chastity, prudence, and the other virtues. But we have to keep struggling while keeping our absolute confidence in God and his infinite mercy.
God bless you all.

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#19

I had a near record going and went over a month before falling again but now I am back in the daily habit. It was the extreme stress and lack of ability to sleep due to trying to get my semester long paper due which I have been working on for months but of course had to finally go sleepless nights when necessary this week to complete it. I have my last paragraph to write still tonight. Anyways, the point is what started the problem again was a situation you described after it had been a month. So, ya, it is problematic but I think as long as I stop again now I can hold off on going to Confession for a while since I don’t think it’s a mortal sin until now when I am aware of the fact that I should now stop again.

#20

Many struggle with this topic. Yet, it sounds like you may have a procleativity toward this act as an addiction. There is help available.
Type on your keyboard “masturbation addiction” without the quotes and see what your search engine finds for you. The sexual urge is the strongest urge that we have. You know who attacks us where we are weakest. Excessive guilt plays a part in this too. Sometimes guilt can be a healthy sign that we have done something wrong. Sometimes we beat ourselves up emotionally to secretly justify committing the act again. People who give “theoretical” advice based on opinion and doctrine may be correct, but have not walked the talk so to speak. Everyone is different. Some hint that the “thorn in St. Paul’s side” was masturbation. I don’t know if this is true but I do know that we must pray for guidance when in doubt, and not stop trying to avoid the occasion of sin.