One of the worst of all "witnesses" for Christ

I have seen some people on these and other forums, who having done things that are egregious enough to get them banned, they then circumvent that ban in order to return and harass the members.

I quit one Catholic online evangelistic forum group when they told me that they encouraged this kind of circumvention on forums that they deemed anti-Catholic and I have seen some a-Cs do the same thing on Catholic forums.

It is, IMO one of the worst kinds of “witness” for Christ, and I lose respect for the people that I see doing it, no matter what faith community they come from. I frankly think that it is sinful.

In reading the Bible and in studying the Catholic faith, I have found the following insights which I feel apply.

CHAPTER TWO
“YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF”

ARTICLE 8
THE EIGHTH COMMANDMENT

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.253

It was said to the men of old, "You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn."254

2464 The eighth commandment forbids misrepresenting the truth in our relations with others. This moral prescription flows from the vocation of the holy people to bear witness to their God who is the truth and wills the truth. Offenses against the truth express by word or deed a refusal to commit oneself to moral uprightness: they are fundamental infidelities to God and, in this sense, they undermine the foundations of the covenant.

Matthew 5:37 But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, nor by the earth, nor by any other oath. But let your speech be, yea, yea: no, no: that you fall not under judgment.

I think that has an application to the agreement to abide by their rules that one makes upon joining any forum, so that breaking those rules and then when banned circumventing that ban somehow to further harass them is actually a form of lying and deception.

The Catechism says the following about intention:

1752 In contrast to the object, the intention resides in the acting subject. Because it lies at the voluntary source of an action and determines it by its end, intention is an element essential to the moral evaluation of an action. The end is the first goal of the intention and indicates the purpose pursued in the action. The intention is a movement of the will toward the end: it is concerned with the goal of the activity. It aims at the good anticipated from the action undertaken. Intention is not limited to directing individual actions, but can guide several actions toward one and the same purpose; it can orient one’s whole life toward its ultimate end. For example, a service done with the end of helping one’s neighbor can at the same time be inspired by the love of God as the ultimate end of all our actions. One and the same action can also be inspired by several intentions, such as performing a service in order to obtain a favor or to boast about it.

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39

Further:
2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."281 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."282

2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.

2486 Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships.

1754 The circumstances, including the consequences, are secondary elements of a moral act. They contribute to increasing or diminishing the moral goodness or evil of human acts (for example, the amount of a theft). They can also diminish or increase the agent’s responsibility (such as acting out of a fear of death). Circumstances of themselves cannot change the moral quality of acts themselves; they can make neither good nor right an action that is in itself evil.
(Cont’d)

II. GOOD ACTS AND EVIL ACTS

1755 A morally good act requires the goodness of the object, of the end, and of the circumstances together. An evil end corrupts the action, even if the object is good in itself (such as praying and fasting “in order to be seen by men”).

The object of the choice can by itself vitiate an act in its entirety. There are some concrete acts - such as fornication - that it is always wrong to choose, because choosing them entails a disorder of the will, that is, a moral evil.

1756 It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.

Based upon all this, I am wondering how anyone can justify doing this. I know I cannot.

CM,

I agree with you re: distaste for such tactics. I’ll add that it is not the the behavior of a Christian gentleman.

I don’t think one has to be a conniver in order to win souls for Christ. In fact, I think it does harm in the long run.

VC

(p.s. I fell the same way when I see people seemingly intentionally misrepresent things in order to “evangelize”.)

Thanks VC!

I mean, how does anyone figure that sort of dishonesty and harassment is Christian evangelism?

I am with you on this. There are people on this forum whom I believe to be members circumventing a ban. While many of these people I suspect not not Catholic, at least one of these suspects is.

Incidentally, nearly all of these people I suspect are on my ignore list because they are just too rude.

I do agree, this is a poor witness for Christ. It is also a telling witness about what kind of person they are. One thing to keep in mind about these people, and it has been posted here many times by many posters; if a person has to lie to make their point, their point is not worth considering.

One thing to keep in mind about these people, and it has been posted here many times by many posters; if a person has to lie to make their point, their point is not worth considering.

Thanks RPP,

I agree of course. Especially in view of the thread that was posted yesterday where one such guy, (who claims to be a pastor. :yup: ) claimed he was a Catholic who was convinced by CAF that he should reject the faith and become Protestant.

If one lies like that then how can anyone, even one’s own congregation, trust what you preach, and what would their congregation think if they saw that kind of behavior?

I belong to a public Catholic chat room (met my husband there:thumbsup: ) and we endure some of the most Hate filled bashers posting everything you can imagine against Holy Mother Church.

I like responding to their attacks (which never change). The regulars get a bit irritated with me at times about me dialoging with them, until I pointed something out to them.

If I can respond with charity and kindness (I am not perfect, and sometimes I do get frustrated and irritated as well), explaining and answering their objections (rather their attacks), then others who are watching/listening might learn something concerning our wonderful faith that they did not know. I answer, not for the education of the one attacking, though that would be nice to plant some seeds with him/her, but for the silent ones who are watching the exchange.

Take the HIGH ROAD, even if the attacker is not willing to listen, others who read these post without responding MIGHT just learn a thing or two. At least they will see what true Catholic Charity is all about. That is the Best way to Witness for Christ on these and other forums.:thumbsup:

May God’s mercy fall on all, Saint and Sinner alike.

L4M, that’s a good reminder of what we are called to.

CM,

your example is perfect.

I just don’t understand why someone thinks that obfuscating or bending the truth, or even outright misrepresentation or lying, is permissible. . . or even effective. You can’t trick someone into a theological position or into a church.

Do you think Catholics do this much? (I mean orthodox Catholics).
I don’t see much evidence of it.

What do you think the reason for that is?
VC

.

I just don’t understand why someone thinks that obfuscating or bending the truth, or even outright misrepresentation or lying, is permissible. . . or even effective. You can’t trick someone into a theological position or into a church.

Do you think Catholics do this much? (I mean orthodox Catholics).
I don’t see much evidence of it.

What do you think the reason for that is?
VCLying? No. Circumventing suspensions and bans? Yes, there are few. As I said I left one Catholic online evangelistic group when they told me that they considered this an acceptable practice.

Don’t worry about people like that. The overall community will not be judged by a few bad apples. :slight_smile:

I would hope not. :thumbsup:

Lying is a sin, often driven by pride.

Having gone several rounds with and called out on occasion at least one of these impostors, it is always only a matter of time before they are banned and return like the living dead in a zombie flick.

They discredit themselves, fool no one, and ultimately are a waste of time (Ignore is a sanity-saving option).

At the Air Force Academy, our Honor Code was simple:

“We will not lie, steal, or cheat, nor tolerate among us anyone who does.”

Good advice for an Internet forum too.

How do you know that this person is lying? Because he wouldn’t have had time to become a pastor in the time CAF has been up and running? I wouldn’t assume this for sure. Some fundamentalist churches might make an ex-Catholic a pastor quite quickly. But I agree that it does seem a bit fishy.

Edwin

Actually I know of him from another forum where he has used the same name as one banned here, and the remarks are the same style and content there too.

The lie was the nature of the whole thread, meant to mislead people by asserting that he had converted away from the faith because of what he reach and learned here. The thread has since been pulled and he was banned (again :rolleyes: ).

If I recall right, you and I have both responded to him in at least one or two of his reincarnations. I won’t name names on a public thread, but shoot me a PM and and I can tell you probably 3 or 4of his last 10 or so. These are just the ones that I am pretty sure of.

Even so, the real point of this thread is the sinful deception and unChristian behavior of circumventing bans and harassing people’s forums like that.

I mean, after all, what did Our Lord say to do when people reject us?

Matt.10:14 And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town.

The best witness it the one that took me from Fundamentalism into the Church. That is a kind, gentle and patient witness, never mean or condescending. Lying or aggressive behavior would have confirmed my worst suspicions and I would have never explored that which led me into the fullness of the faith.

I have seen some people on these and other forums, who having done things that are egregious enough to get them banned, they then circumvent that ban in order to return and harass the members.

I quit one Catholic online evangelistic forum group when they told me that they encouraged this kind of circumvention on forums that they deemed anti-Catholic and I have seen some a-Cs do the same thing on Catholic forums.

It is, IMO one of the worst kinds of “witness” for Christ, and I lose respect for the people that I see doing it, no matter what faith community they come from. I frankly think that it is sinful.## :thumbsup: **I couldn’t agree with you more. **

Well said Georgia! :thumbsup:

When this kind of behavior happens, it isn’t just the one doing the lying who gets hurt. It isn’t even just the ones who might have been swayed because of that lie who get hurt.

Believe it or not, the ones who ‘catch’ the lies and expose the ‘truth’ can get hurt too, in two ways: Spiritual pride (hah, I ‘caught’ a liar, yay for me). . .and boy, is THAT hard to avoid. . .and also the aftermath (recognizing that pride and then worrying if, in one’s zeal to unmask lying, one went too far–winning the battle but losing the war.)

I am definitely with you. This kind of behavior has so many different and far-reaching repercussions to ALL people that I think it is personally the most heinous behavior on these forums. . . worse than frank proselytizing because at least there one recognizes the wolf. To have the wolf pretending to be the sheep is most dangerous.

Lying is the way of the world, dont tell the truth under any condition

the wolf. To have the wolf pretending to be the sheep is most dangerous.A good point. In my case, I am so active in apologetics that I stumble across these types pretty often and it just gets weird when some noob shows up in a thread to take up the same arguments on a thread where his previous nom de guerre was just banned.

IOW…the end justifies any means?

I know that you were not condoning this behavior, so be sure that I am not saying that you are. You make a good point too.

Yes, I agree that is the way of carnal and worldly thinking. Something that we never see Our Lord doing.