For some reason, I’ve been thinking more about suffering and hunger in the world and why God doesn’t fix it. For some reason, this has been giving me doubts, but it may also be the fever I’m sporting. I don’t want to look like a skeptic, but I can’t work myself around the fact God lets all the suffering happen to people if he loves us so much. How is this justified, besides the promise of a good afterlife?
We show our own love by doing whatever we can to right the wrongs that present themselves to us in this world. To that extent, we’re given the power to be God here-to be His hands or not. By the way we help or fail to help we reveal how much we really value love - how much we really value God. If we blame Him for not doing all He could do-but haven’t done much that we could do, we show that we really don’t care anyway. This world is an exile from God, Adam & Eve having rejected His godhood so to speak, where man’s will reigns and we’re asked the question, should this be so?-are things really better this way?-how will we live* our* lives given the freedom to do more or less as we will?
In the Hebrew Scriptures (The Old Testament) there is a passage that talks about a time when God was the King of the nation. It was truly a Theocracy but, the people saw that the nations that were all around them were governed by human kings.
And so, they asked God for a human king…and God gave them a human king ever since.
The hunger and suffering and war and [stuff] you see everyday is not God’s fault… Especially in the US, we don’t want “royalty” as a matter of fact we have disdain for royalty…let alone a theocracy or a shared governance with a representative of God. We boast to our system of “separation of God and state.”
On this earth, in every country we elect a President, a King, a Prime Minister etc. other countries have a Dictator, a Leader. Some countries have a combination of the secular and the religious, so they have a President and a Religious Leader of some sort.
So you see, It is not God’s fault…as a matter of fact - God is the one who is keeping things from being worse. And yes, things could be worse with human rulers, kings and presidents.
1)Could you cite the scriptures in the Hebrew Bible for that?
- By now, we have seen that the old notions that one must have a King or King and Queen are no longer true. Doesn’t this highlight the flaws in the bible?
Hello my friend,
First of all come home to the Catholic church.
Now to your scripture question…1 Kings Chapter 8 verses 1 thru 10.
- When you read the above scripture, you will also read where God talks to Samuel and what He says will clarify the “old notions”. Besides, the flaws in our own system of governance are blatantly defective.
The Bible is not flawed. It’s the inspired word of God. I don’t mean that to be simplistic but where else does God leave a document of His caring and direction to future generations?
Our interpretation and scrutiny of His word…now that is more times than not…flawed. It is the reason we have His church which He himself instituted after His ascension into heaven and of which He left Peter as its first pope…266 popes later to Pope Benedict XVI. And the gates of hell will not prevail against her.
Happy Thanksgiving my friend.
Thank you for your answer Manny.
My wishes for you to have a Happy Thanksgiving also.
Your friend,
SJ
Its somewhat like having your wisdom teeth removed. Nobody likes that, it hurts and is just generally unpleasant, yet it has to be done to prevent larger problems later in life.
I view my sufferings in life as God’s method of preparing me to enter his kingdom, excising that which is not of God from me, and giving me a chance to show his love to others through my patient suffering (or not so patient as the case may be).
Suffering is temporal, Heaven and Hell are permanent. I consider it a blessing that I may suffer here for a time in order to live forever in God’s Grace (although at times I rail against my own suffering like a child refusing a bath).
Straw, m’main man! 
Here’s the deal, Lucille.
Jesus Christ, Son of God, is the “Word of God.” He, Himself.
We have two main “modes” of “transmission” of the “Word of God.”
Jesus came to earth and taught His truths to mankind…orally. He never wrote any of it down, as far as we know. He taught the Apostles orally, and commanded them to do the same to their predecessors, teaching all that He had taught them. (See Matt. 28:20) Some of what the Apostles taught got written down. Not all, though. (See John 21:25)
Around the end of the fourth century, the Magisterium of the Church (the Pope and the bishops), sat down and prayed to the Holy Spirit for guidance. Then, they went through over 300 documents that were considered to be “holy.” They chose 27 of those and declared them to be divinely “inspired.” These are what we call the New Testament. All Christians accept these books as being divinely inspired.
This same Church, with its Magisterium, is the earthly authority when it comes to interpretation of the Bible. One has to only look at the mess Protestant Christianity has made in the last 500 years, creating literally thousands of man-made, doctrinally disagreeing denominations, to see that self-interpretation isn’t the ticket to finding the fullness of Christ’s truth that He handed on to mankind. Even Peter, in 2 Peter 1:20, says that self-interpretation is a no-no.
Like many things in life, there is a proper methodology to reading and interpreting the Bible. Here’s a (very) brief summary, if you’re interested:
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Always read the Bible in context of the whole, not in snippets.
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Always read the Bible in light of Holy Tradition (a.k.a., Oral Tradition, as described in 2 Thes. 2:15).
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Always read the Bible with the analogy of the faith, as taught by the Magisterium of the Church.
Do these three things, and you’re on the road to success. Leave out any one, and you’re headed for error.
Jesus Christ is the Word, and is God. God has a trinitarian nature, but within that Trinity exists a Divine unity. Wherever you find One Person of the Trinity, you necessarily find the Other Two. Similarly, the Word of God has a trinitarian flavor, if you will. The three parts of the Word of God are the Magisterium, Holy Tradition, and Holy Scripture. Leave any one of the three out, and you’re headed for trouble.
If you want more detail, download the first six .mp3 files from the following link. It’s a short course on how to read the Bible properly:
alabamacatholicresources.com/Fr_John_Corapi.html
These talks are by Fr. John Corapi, who has a doctorate in theology with an emphasis on Scripture. He received his degree from the University of Navarre in Spain, and graduated at the top of his class. Yet, he talks to where almost anyone can understand him.
God bless!
Well, a properly functioning Monarchy with a GOOD monarch is still the best system of government. It is efficient, inexpensive to maintain, and accountable (since everyone can point to one person and know who runs what).
That being said, when you have a man-made monarchy, run by a man or woman, you invariably get pride (due to our concupiscence) and we slowly begin to ruin what could be a good thing. Look at England’s history if you want to get a good understanding of the difference a GOOD king makes and the horrible consequences of a BAD king.
In the current age we have moved away from monarchies to limit the power that can be held by any individual out of fear of the consequences of having a BAD monarch (absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that). This has had the effect of limiting the GOOD aspects of monarchies listed above. In the case of the Church, with Christ as the King, how can we possibly have truly negative consequences from a monarchy? We may have what seems like negative results (suffering) but we can also have the assurance that our benevolent King uses all things for good.
Pieman it is because you are not getting the right answers to your questions. First of all let me recommend to you any talks from Fr.John Corapi and his DVD’s will enable you to answer all your doubts. I can explain a bit here if you will like. The question why God allows evil and suffering is this. To arrive at a better good. Look at the Cross of Christ to see this. Christ suffered terribly and we killed Him. But look what happened. What is seemingly evil and terrible brought out the greatest good ever. The Redemption of mankind. It is difficult to see good when evil seems to triumph. It takes a Saint and a very wise person to see beyond it. The real reason why there is suffering and evil is not because what is out there. That is not the problem. What we are seeing are visible eruptions of another type of problem. The problem is not what is out there. The problem is in each and everyone of us. The problem is sin. And for sin to be eradictated it must be dwelt with at one person at a time. The cure is there but it takes sacrifice and penance and patience if it is to be dwelt with. There is no other cure than the One who can give it and that is Our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is the antidote for all the poison we put ourselves into. You say why is God not fixing it? Well He is Pieman but He does this one person at a time. He is fixing alot of people. Many have been brought back to the Light. But Pieman you must understand and Catholics and Orthodox are all guilty of this as well am I that God needs our participation if He is going to " fix " the world. God has ordained that He will do nothing until the Church prays and ask for Him. God has the power to do anything but He has limited Himself and really has willed Himself to be dependent on His Church. That means God will not act at all until prayer is made before Him. Therefore the responsibilty of the world really rests on our shoulders. You cannot get away from it. God will not let you get away with it. He has made each and everyone of us responsible. Now that does not mean I have to do everything. On the contrary you are to do your bit for God and nation. But is it not great that God can do it as long as we will do our part. Man prayer moves the hand who made the world. If the world is crumbling before us as we see it on the news that tells me that the Church is not praying. God depends on our prayers so that He can give His Lifesaving Graces and Mercies to the world and especially to sinners. Only 20% of Catholics go to Mass every week and you wonder why the world is crumbling!! The reason for this mess is that the majority of Catholics are not praying. Thank God for at least the chosen ones who will carry this load and these burdens until the rest of the 80% wake up and do their part. God can do it but He needs our prayers and our participation. Let us attack this evil in the world one person at a time. Let us pray individually for those persons while been Catholic have decided not to do anything. Catholics who won’t do anything need God too. And God needs them as well. Let us give them God. Pray for someone you know who has been hurt or into drugs or whatever and ask God to fill them with the Holy Spirit. You will be amazed and astonished what God can do with your prayers. May I recommend the Divine Mercy devotions to pray for these devotions are medicines for our times. If you think about it when I said that God is dependent on our prayers, this is the reason why He sends Himself or His Holy Mother during times of dryness with apparitions to erupt in us faith again so that we will pray to Him or to His Holy Mother. He needs our prayers. He needs each and everyone of us.
I am continually amazed that people can regard God’s torture-schemes as “good.” On the contrary, God’s plan to torture himself and then subject a large percentage of human souls to their own tortuous afterlife is downright despicable. The fact that God could be an even more menacing beast if he wanted does not mitigate the terror he has promised for us.
That said, I should perhaps observe that the problem of evil (e.g. the evil plans of God) does not threaten the existence of God. It just means the God you worship is a monster.
Can you devise a worthwhile world entirely free from hardship and suffering?
On the contrary, God’s plan to torture himself and then subject a large percentage of human souls to their own tortuous afterlife is downright despicable.
Are you never prepared to sacrifice yourself for others even if it entails being tortured and killed?
The fact that God could be an even more menacing beast if he wanted does not mitigate the terror he has promised for us.
The only menacing beast is within yourself! And everyone else who has free will…
That said, I should perhaps observe that the problem of evil (e.g. the evil plans of God) does not threaten the existence of God.
The fact that you recognise the reality of evil implies that you recognise the inadequacy of materialism… How do you explain the reality of goodness and the immense value of existence? Do they occur by accident?
It just means the God you worship is a monster.
It just means the God you reject is a distortion of reality!
Who is directly responsible for the suffering and hunger in the world? Do you blame a father for what his adult offspring do?
Of course I can! Can’t you? Just imagine a world with God, and a few other minds which experience only happiness.
Are you never prepared to sacrifice yourself for others even if it entails being tortured and killed?
Maybe, but I don’t see how that’s relevant. God didn’t need to have himself tortured. That’s just what he wanted to have happen, for some strange and unknown reason.
According to his omnipotence, God need expend no effort whatsoever in order to save people from eternal torture. That he does not do so for unbelievers means he really does want them tortured—and that is downright monstrous.
The fact that you recognise the reality of evil implies that you recognise the inadequacy of materialism… How do you explain the reality of goodness and the immense value of existence? Do they occur by accident?
What does the existence of evil have to do with materialism? A materialist might simply describe evil as a property of material systems, or give another of a any number of accounts of evil which are compatible with materialism (to the extent that materialism is intelligible, at least).
However, the problem of evil involves an internal critique of Christianity. It is not necessary that evil should actually exist for Christians to feel the force of the criticism. It is sufficient to point out that if God exists then he is evil.
Mind if I answer? (It is, after all, my thread) How can you appreciate perfection in the world with no pain? Even in heaven, we will have the memories of an imperfect life to remind us how amazing the place is.
Maybe, but I don’t see how that’s relevant. God didn’t need to have himself tortured. That’s just what he wanted to have happen, for some strange and unknown reason.
God’s torture of his Son was done solely for the reason to demonstrate his love for us. Sure, he could have said “you’re saved now, 'K bye”, but think about it. If by his sacrifice, he saved us, we would know in our hearts he loved us.
According to his omnipotence, God need expend no effort whatsoever in order to save people from eternal torture. That he does not do so for unbelievers means he really does want them tortured—and that is downright monstrous.
Not all unbelievers will go to hell. Those who follow the teachings of Jesus, and seek God with a sincere heart, will be saved, perhaps after a period of purgation. This is different from Universalism, note. The atheists and agnostics who hate God, or who don’t seek him, or live unjust lives, will not be saved, however.
What does the existence of evil have to do with materialism? A materialist might simply describe evil as a property of material systems, or give another of a any number of accounts of evil which are compatible with materialism (to the extent that materialism is intelligible, at least).
I’m not entirely sure what he meant, and I don’t get involved in materialism vs dualism, so I’ll let Tony answer.
However, the problem of evil involves an internal critique of Christianity. It is not necessary that evil should actually exist for Christians to feel the force of the criticism. It is sufficient to point out that if God exists then he is evil.
That’s a non-sequitur. God’s allowance of evil in the world doesn’t make him evil. Considering the easy-in paradise for an afterlife, the presence of good in the world, and the morals he has given us, both through natural law and his Son’s teaching, I would say he is a good God, if not omnibenevolent. Some of the conclusions non-theists reach with the problem of evil are honestly absurd. And being evil doesn’t make God not exist, it makes him not omnibenevolent, which is not required for his existence.
“imagine” and “a few other minds” are the most significant words. A fantasy for the select few!
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Are you never prepared to sacrifice yourself for others even if it entails being tortured and killed?
Maybe, but I don’t see how that’s relevant.
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It’s relevant when you are faced with the reality of evils like blackmail, hostages and genocide…
God didn’t need to have himself tortured. That’s just what he wanted to have happen, for some strange and unknown reason.
How would** you **solve the problem of evils like war, revenge and violence? With nuclear weapons?
According to his omnipotence, God need expend no effort whatsoever in order to save people from eternal torture.
Can you force people who are determined to have everything their own way to co-exist in peace and harmony with others? Do you think pride and selfishness are compatible with a state of unending bliss in “splendid” isolation?
That he does not do so for unbelievers means he really does want them tortured—and that is downright monstrous.
It is monstrous to believe God is a monster! The reality is that the lust for power induces some people to torture themselves. All vices incur their own punishment in the long run. Nemesis is not simply a dramatic device but a fact of life…
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The fact that you recognise the reality of evil implies that you recognise the inadequacy of materialism… How do you explain the reality of goodness and the immense value of existence? Do they occur by accident?
What does the existence of evil have to do with materialism? A materialist might simply describe evil as a property of material systems, or give another of any number of accounts of evil which are compatible with materialism (to the extent that materialism is intelligible, at least).
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Since materialism is unintelligible the attempt to describe evil as a property of material systems is futile. Can you explain how valueless, purposeless objects acquire value and purpose?
However, the problem of evil involves an internal critique of Christianity. It is not necessary that evil should actually exist for Christians to feel the force of the criticism
If evil is a myth the problem of evil is also a myth! There is no point in criticising the Creator of an amoral universe…
It is sufficient to point out that if God exists then he is evil.
If God didn’t exist then evil wouldn’t exist. If only matter existed nothing would matter.
Without persons particles are pointless!
I don’t mind at all! I’m happy to talk to any number of people!
Now, in answer to your question, in a world with no pain or suffering, we can appreciate happiness in the very same way we appreciate it in this, our own suffering-decorated world. I don’t know about you, but my happiness is not predicated on memories of suffering. I see no reason to suppose that if my suffering disappeared then so too would my happiness. Quite the contrary!
God’s torture of his Son was done solely for the reason to demonstrate his love for us. Sure, he could have said “you’re saved now, 'K bye”, but think about it. If by his sacrifice, he saved us, we would know in our hearts he loved us.
I’m sure God had his reasons, but they could not have included a desire to show us love, because, on one hand, he can show us love using alternative means, including simply implanting the knowledge of his love in our minds, and on the other hand, self-torture is not an expression of love.
Not all unbelievers will go to hell. Those who follow the teachings of Jesus, and seek God with a sincere heart, will be saved, perhaps after a period of purgation. This is different from Universalism, note. The atheists and agnostics who hate God, or who don’t seek him, or live unjust lives, will not be saved, however.
Oh, sure; I’m sorry if I was imprecise. But my point is, for those people who go to Hell, it can only be because that’s what the omnipotent and omniscient creator of the universe wants. And a being who has human souls tortured eternally is a hideous monster.
That’s a non-sequitur. God’s allowance of evil in the world doesn’t make him evil. Considering the easy-in paradise for an afterlife, the presence of good in the world, and the morals he has given us, both through natural law and his Son’s teaching, I would say he is a good God, if not omnibenevolent. Some of the conclusions non-theists reach with the problem of evil are honestly absurd. And being evil doesn’t make God not exist, it makes him not omnibenevolent, which is not required for his existence.
Sorry if I was unclear, but I was NOT suggesting that God is evil because he allows evil in the world, nor was I arguing against the existence of God (cf. my earlier post). Instead, I’m suggesting that God is evil because he desires that human souls be tortured for eternity, and indeed He carries out that evil desire.
Let me interject one thought here. The statement, “for those people who go to Hell, it can only be because that’s what the omnipotent and omniscient creator of the universe wants” is true only if the concept of human freewill (and, consequently, human moral responsibility), is invalid-God’s omnipotence and omniscience notwithstanding.
If a concept of free will is at odds with the fact that an omnipotent and omniscient being will always get exactly what he wants, then it must be flawed in some way. Not all concepts of free will have that consequence, though.