1 Big difference: World View, Would Catholics say the world is good, people are good,

[malachi_a_serva]

Is the way we look at the world. Would Catholics say the world is good, people are good, everything is good? Who really runs the show on earth? God? Satan? Man?

Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[Contarini]

malachi_a_serva:

Is the way we look at the world. Would Catholics say the world is good, people are good, everything is good? Who really runs the show on earth? God? Satan? Man?

Hopefully that makes sense.

The world is good but fallen. Everything is ontologically good. Existence is good.

But nothing in this world is unspoiled.

God remains in ultimate control, but the powers and principalities of the world are fallen.

This is my view and may not be identical to what the Catholics will say. But I think it is at the very least one legitimate Catholic position.

Edwin

 

[Eileen_T]

I’m not sure I fully understand what you are getting at but here’s my 2c worth.

All Creation is good because God cannot create something inherently evil. Evil is nothing more than the absence of good.

When God created the physical universe, everything God created was “very good” (Gen. 1:31), but man fell from this righteous state into a state of sin. Man is not evil (lacking goodness) by his nature, but by his own fault/free choice.

The devil [that is, Satan] and the other demons were created good by God; but they became evil through their own fault

“The whole world is in the power of the evil one”, I Jn 5: 19
Having noted that, the Acts of the Apostles tell us that after the descent of the Holy Spirit the apostles continued to expel demons, and all Christians have done so after them. So I guess Satan isn’t running the show.

The Second Vatican Council reminded us of this abiding teaching of the Church: “For a monumental struggle against the powers of darkness pervades the whole history of man. The battle was joined from the very origins of the world” (Gaudium et Spes, no. 37).

“Although he was made by God in a state of holiness, from the very dawn of history man abused his liberty, at the urging of personified Evil. Man set himself against God and sought to find fulfillment apart from God. Although he knew God, he did not glorify Him as God, but his senseless mind was darkened and he served the creature rather than the Creator” (no. 13).

“For He sent His Son, clothed in our flesh, in order that through this Son He might snatch men from the power of darkness and of Satan” (Ad Gentes, no. 3).

Now I wonder if I am making sense . . .

 

[Contarini]

I’m not sure I fully understand what you are getting at but here’s my 2c worth.

All Creation is good because God cannot create something inherently evil. Evil is nothing more than the absence of good.

When God created the physical universe, everything God created was “very good” (Gen. 1:31), but man fell from this righteous state into a state of sin. Man is not evil (lacking goodness) by his nature, but by his own fault/free choice.

The devil [that is, Satan] and the other demons were created good by God; but they became evil through their own fault

“The whole world is in the power of the evil one”, I Jn 5: 19
Having noted that, the Acts of the Apostles tell us that after the descent of the Holy Spirit the apostles continued to expel demons, and all Christians have done so after them. So I guess Satan isn’t running the show.

The Second Vatican Council reminded us of this abiding teaching of the Church: “For a monumental struggle against the powers of darkness pervades the whole history of man. The battle was joined from the very origins of the world” (Gaudium et Spes, no. 37).

“Although he was made by God in a state of holiness, from the very dawn of history man abused his liberty, at the urging of personified Evil. Man set himself against God and sought to find fulfillment apart from God. Although he knew God, he did not glorify Him as God, but his senseless mind was darkened and he served the creature rather than the Creator” (no. 13).

“For He sent His Son, clothed in our flesh, in order that through this Son He might snatch men from the power of darkness and of Satan” (Ad Gentes, no. 3).

Now I wonder if I am making sense . . .

You’re making a lot of sense to me. But I don’t know what Malachi will say!

Edwin

 

[Dimmers]

In my own opinion, the world is overall good. We see the good of the world through charities and through disasters. Where we all come together for a greater cause. Setting aside religious and political views to help out the world.

Problem is we are not aware of the good, because in this society we live in, the only thing they display is the evil which man does. The media, the newspapers, the internet etc… They only focus on the evil that men do.

Basically, all Christians I know, be it that they are Baptists, Fundamentalists, Catholic, Evangelists, etc… all believe that we should be good to our fellow neighbors.

There will always be bad fruits in the tree, but overall Good is greater than evil.

As far as who runs the show on Earth. Man does. Politicians and Corporations run the world today. Not religious figure heads. Not that all politicians and corporations are greedy. But the majority of them have only one GOD. That is the Almighty Dollar, Euro, Yen etc…

Just my point of view of the world. I could be wrong. It may not be all technical and use rich vocabulary, but its my honest perspective of the world today.

 

[Ignatius]

malachi_a_serva:

Would Catholics say the world is good, people are good, everything is good? Who really runs the show on earth? God? Satan?

He rules the world with Truth and Grace
And makes the nations prove
The glories of His righteousness,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders, wonders, of His love

God bless.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

I would say also, to think that creation or the world is not good would smack of Gnosticism.

 

[scylla]

God created the world so it is a good thing, just like human bodies are a good thing. Now using things of the world not to honor or even rejecting God is not good. We think of all created things as good but people or the devil choose to twist meaning or use of things to evil.

Food is good, too much of it is gluttony.
Sexual intercourse is good in procreation, for selfishness and out of wedlock it is turned to sin.
Wine is good, in excess or where it leads to sin(usually in excess) it use is turned into sin.

Etc. Etc…

God is in charge, but He does allow for free will since we are not robots and are free to choose to follow him, or to take the easy road and do what we want.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[JaneFrances]

Hi Again Malachi!

Another good question. . .Look forward to knowing your perspective, too!

Catholics have the freedom to view the world in a variety of ways. This is not subjective relativism. . .This simply means that our perspective of “goodness” versus “evil” depends upon our objective state of grace. Whatever our world view, our personal perspectives of the world must never interfere with the proper understanding and theology of creation, sin, and salvation. This is where Catholic doctrine comes into play.

As Catholics we must believe:

God himself created the visible world in all its richness, diversity, and order. (CCC 337)

**Each creature posssess its own particular goodness and perfection. For each one of the works of the “six days” it is said: “And God saw that it was good.” ** By the very nature of creation, material being is endowed with its own stabililty, truth, and excellence, its own order and laws. (CCC 339)

“God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.” Man occupies a unique place in creation: (1) he is “in the image of God”; (2) in his own nature he unites the spiritual and material worlds; (3) he is created “male and female”; (4) God established him in his friendship. (CCC 355)

Due to the Fall:

The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the
union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination. Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay.” Finally, the consequence explicitly fortold for this disobedience will come true: “man will return to the ground,” for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history. (CCC 400)

The doctrine of original sin:

The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man’s situation and activity in the world. By our first parents sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. **Original sin entails “captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil.” ** Igornance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action, and morals. (CCC 407)

The consequences fo original sin and of all men’s personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John’s expression, “the sin of the world.” (CCC 408)

As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers; subject to ignorance, suffering, and the domination of death; and inclined to sin (This inclination is called “concupiscence.”) (CCC 418)

The victory that Christ won over sin has given us greater blessings than those which sin had taken from us: **“where sin increased, grace abounded all the more” (Rom. 5:20) ** (CCC 420)

Christians believe that **“the world has been established and kept in being by the Creator’s love; has fallen into slavery to sin but has been set free by Christ, crucified and risen to break the power of the evil one. . .” ** (CCC 421)

SO. . .

This is the our doctrinal theology of creation, sin, and salvation.

All creation, including humanity, is created good. Man, in his disobedience, brought sin and decay (evil) into the world. Through this sin, Satan was given “a certain domination” in this world. However, through the life, death, and resurrection of our Savior Jesus Christ, creation is redeemed.

This does not mean that Satan and evil are now absent in the world. It simply means that we now, through our Lord’s sacrifice, have been given the immeasurable gift of grace to overcome evil. We, once again, can be in union and harmony with our God who is all good.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

JaneFrances:

Hi Again Malachi!Another good question. . .Look forward to knowing your perspective, too!

Hello JaneFrances, thank you for your thorough explanation. I think I agree with what you put forth.

I will say I also hold to the following:

"The Bible says that Satan is the God of this world and he will blind the eyes of unbelievers. Jesus called him the Prince of this world and the father of lies. The Bible continually warns us to stand against the wiles of the Devil with words like, “do not be deceived”, “be vigilant”(awake - open your eyes and be ready), has Satan snuck in? Has there been any deception in the Church? The are statistics like 50% of professing Born Again Christians deny Satan even exists…and we all know what will happen then - we let our guard down.

I look at the story of the Prodigal son. The young man went to his father and asked for his inheritance and took his money, went to far away country and spent it on riotous living. Jesus said later in the parable that it was spent on prostitutes. Famine came to the land. His friends left him. The only job he could get is feeding pigs and as he sat on the pigsty he started contemplating eating the pig food and as he did he came to his senses and said even my father’s servants have it better than I. He said, I will go back to my father and say I have sinned against Heaven and in your sight, make me a hired servant. So he did…he got out of the pigsty and went back to his father. The Bible says the father was actually looking for him, waiting for him and when he saw him, ran to him kissed him, put a robe around him and ring for the finger and shoes for his feet. He said kill the fatted calf we are going to have a feast, for once my son was dead but now he is made alive.

I see this parable as a picture of every person before they come to Christ. We turned away from God to serve the devil and the pleasures of sin. The bible actually says there is a spirit that works in the children of disobedience and I John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil. Remember what Jesus said to the religious hypocrites of his day, “you are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father you will do…”

The Bible teaches us that unsaved people live in spiritual darkness. It is as simple as this. If you are serving sin…you are serving Satan (I know I sound like Giver…). Our natural appetites are unclean… i.e. we desire “pig food”. Just look at what people crave…think about what is in out soap operas, our prime time television programs, it is filled with things like lust, Adultery, jealousy, greed, fornication, rape, gossip…or the popular movies today with violence, filthy language and graphic murder and explicit sex. Look at the covers of magazines in the superstores, and food chains…the models on the covers are wearing (or not wearing) what years ago would amount to soft-core pornography. The video games now…the kids crave are extremely violent and sexually perverted. Today’s music…explicit sexuality, blasphemy and dark satanic side…rap music that talks about rapping his mother and sexual sickness that I can’t even mention (eminem cd…bad stuff).

continued below…

 

[malachi_a_serva]

con’t…

Think about the Internet multibillion-dollar hard core porn industry or how the average person uses filthy words and blasphemy in everyday speech…life in the pigsty is normal and natural and completely acceptable.

Yes Satan is the God of this world and he has deceived millions…even moving into the church.

“for such men are false apostles, deceitful workman. Masquerading as apostles of christ…and it is no wonder for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light; so it is not surprising if his servants also masquerade as ministers of righteousness…”

Satan has contaminated the Gospel, how it brings people to Christ. Churches are here to serve the people as oppose to the people humbling themselves to serve God. Other stats say less than 2% of Christians regularly share their faith with others. Instead it appears they would rather look for what they can get from God…health, wealth and prosperity…it appears that modern Christianity caters to selfishness…it is self-seeking, self-centered and self serving.

James 1 says lay aside all filthiness in other words get up out of the pigsty and leave. Then - be doers of the word, not hearers only, deceiving you own self."

“You are of your father the Devil, and the lusts of your father you will do” John 8:44

“…and the children of the Devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God,…”

Here the Holy Scriptures illustrates that there are “children of the Devil”.

“But as many as received him, to them gave the power to become the sons of God,…”

Here, the Holy Scriptures illustrates that in receiving Christ you “become” sons of God. This implies before one would not be sons of God, but rather “children of wrath” (Eph. 2:3 & Eph 6:4) and “because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” (Eph 5:6 & Col. 3:6)

“Wherein time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience”

Here it shows not the Holy Spirit in people, but Satan’s spirit.

I think what is important here that many people dismiss…we are in a spiritual war. We must put on the full armor of God in order to survive. “Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil” Eph 6:10

In summary, I believe we were put on this earth to fellowship and serve God. Then Adam sinned…and now we - before we come to Christ - want to live our life, serve ourselves, enjoy this that and the other thing - worshipping the creation rather than the creator. WE are self centered instead of Christ centered…therfore when that happens…satan is running the show.

And now the biggest proof that Satan is running the show is when Satan was tempting Jesus in the desert, …
"Again, the devil took him up into an exceedingly high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; and said to him, **All these things will I give you if **you will fall down and worship me.

Jesus did not say, “wait a minute Satan, you can’t give me these nations, they are not yours to give”…no, he didn’t, because they are his to give. Satan runs the show.

Jesus will come back to put an end to all of this lawlessness.

Too out there?