2 Questions on Apostolic Succession

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Were there gaps in the Church’s European apostolic succession? Also, what is the “Alexandrian Precedent”? I was recently having a discussion with a fellow poster (maybe he’ll find this thread 😉 ) about how Protestants do not have a valid Eucharist because they lack a valid priesthood. He is a Methodist and claimed that their Eucharist was valid. He wrote me the following:

I…know the history of Europe and the “gaps” that occured in apostolic succession, including the Alexandrian Precedent. I suspect that the Kingdom of God is much more interested in the passing on of apostolic tradition than a literal (and, at best, unprovable) hands-on succession.
With regard to the precedent in the Church of Alexandria, I found this:

Some Protestant churches, such as Anglicans (including those known in the U.S. as Episcopalians), the Church of Sweden, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvija, do have Apostolic Succession (also known as the “historic episcopate”). Bishops in the United Methodist Church do not claim to be within the historic episcopate. Their succession derives from John Wesley who was an ordained priest of the Church of England, but not himself a bishop and therefore had no power to consecrate others. He justified his practice of ordaining “elders” (“presbyters”) for Methodism by appealing to a perceived need and by citing a minority opinion among the early Church Fathers (and possible ancient precedent from the Church of Alexandria) which held that presbyters (“priests” or “elders”) could, at least collectively, indeed ordain other such presbyters and even consecrate, or “set apart” bishops.
Does anyone have any insight on this precedent in Alexandria? Also, can anyone provide a list of apostolic succession for just one bishop of the Catholic Church (excluding the pope)? Thanks!
 
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JSmitty2005:
Some Protestant churches, such as Anglicans (including those known in the U.S. as Episcopalians), the Church of Sweden, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvija, do have Apostolic Succession (also known as the “historic episcopate”).
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From Pope Leo XIII:
"36. Wherefore, strictly adhering, in this matter, to the decrees of the pontiffs, our predecessors, and confirming them most fully, and, as it were, renewing them by our authority, of our own initiative and certain knowledge, we pronounce and declare that ordinations carried out according to the Anglican rite have been, and are, absolutely null and utterly void. "
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13curae.htm
 
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doomhammer:
From Pope Leo XIII:
"36. Wherefore, strictly adhering, in this matter, to the decrees of the pontiffs, our predecessors, and confirming them most fully, and, as it were, renewing them by our authority, of our own initiative and certain knowledge, we pronounce and declare that ordinations carried out according to the Anglican rite have been, and are, absolutely null and utterly void. "
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13curae.htm
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Okay, so were they null at the time of Wesley? And what’s up with this “Alexandrian precedent”?
 
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JSmitty2005:
so were they null at the time of Wesley?
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yes, check the whole Bull.
“For an opinion already prevalent, confirmed more than once by the action and constant practice of the Church, maintained that when in England, shortly after it was rent from the center of Christian Unity, a new rite for conferring Holy Orders was publicly introduced under Edward VI, the true Sacrament of Order as instituted by Christ lapsed, and with it the hierarchical succession.”
“as a century had already elapsed since the adoption of the Edwardine Ordinal, for, as the Hierarchy had become extinct, there remained no power of ordaining.”
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JSmitty2005:
And what’s up with this “Alexandrian precedent”?
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no idea! but coming from protestants you can imagine…
 
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JSmitty2005:
Were there gaps in the Church’s European apostolic succession? !
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Here’s a list of Roman Pontiffs:
Name Birthplace From To
St. Peter Bethsaida 42? 67?
St. Linus Tuscia 67 76
St. Anacletus (Cletus) Rome 76 88
St. Clement Rome 88 97
St. Evaristus Greece 97 105
St. Alexander I Rome 105 115
St. Sixtus I Rome 115 125
St. Telesphorus Greece 125 136
St. Hyginus Greece 136 140
St. Pius I Aquileia 140 155
St. Anicetus Syria 155 166
St. Soter Campania 166 175
St. Eleutherius Epirus 175 189
St. Victor I Africa 189 199
St. Zephyrinus Rome 199 217
St. Callistus I Rome 217 222
St. Urban I Rome 222 230
St. Pontian Rome 230 235
St. Anterus Greece 235 236
St. Fabian Rome 236 250
St. Cornelius Rome 251 253
St. Lucius I Rome 253 254
St. Stephen I Rome 254 257
St. Sixtus II Greece 257 258
St. Dionysius Unknown 259 268
St. Felix I Rome 269 274
St. Eutychian Luni 275 283
St. Caius Dalmatia 283 296
St. Marcellinus Rome 296 304
St. Marcellus I Rome 308 309
St. Eusebius Greece 309 309
St. Meltiades Africa 311 314
St. Sylvester I Rome 314 335
St. Marcus Rome 336 336
St. Julius I Rome 337 352
Liberius Rome 352 366
St. Damasus I Spain 366 384
St. Siricius Rome 384 399
St. Anastasius I Rome 399 401
St. Innocent I Albano 401 417
St. Zozimus Greece 417 418
St. Boniface I Rome 418 422
St. Celestine I Campania 422 432
St. Sixtus III Rome 432 440
St. Leo I (the Great) Tuscany 440 461
St. Hilary Sardinia 461 468
St. Simplicius Tivoli 468 483
St. Felix III (II)2 Rome 483 492
St. Gelasius I Africa 492 496
Anastasius II Rome 496 498
St. Symmachus Sardinia 498 514
St. Hormisdas Frosinone 514 523
St. John I Tuscany 523 526
St. Felix IV (III) Samnium 526 530
Boniface II Rome 530 532
John II Rome 533 535
St. Agapitus I Rome 535 536
St. Silverius Campania 536 537
Vigilius Rome 537 555
Pelagius I Rome 556 561
John III Rome 561 574
Benedict I Rome 575 579
Pelagius II Rome 579 590
St. GregoryI(the Great) Rome 590 604
Sabinianus Tuscany 604 606
Boniface III Rome 607 607
St. Boniface IV Marsi 608 615
St.Deusdedit(AdeodatusI)Rome 615 618
Boniface V Naples 619 625
Honorius I Campania 625 638
Severinus Rome 640 640
John IV Dalmatia 640 642
Theodore I Greece 642 649
St. Martin I Todi 649 655
St. Eugene I3 Rome 654 657
St. Vitalian Segni 657 672
Adeodatus II Rome 672 676
Donus Rome 676 678
St. Agatho Sicily 678 681
St. Leo II Sicily 682 683
St. Benedict II Rome 684 685
John V Syria 685 686
Conon Unknown 686 687
St. Sergius I Syria 687 701
John VI Greece 701 705
John VII Greece 705 707
Sisinnius Syria 708 708
Constantine Syria 708 715
St. Gregory II Rome 715 731
St. Gregory III Syria 731 741
St. Zachary Greece 741 752
Stephen II (III) Rome 752 757
St. Paul I Rome 757 767
Stephen III (IV) Sicily 768 772
Adrian I Rome 772 795
St. Leo III Rome 795 816
Stephen IV (V) Rome 816 817
St. Paschal I Rome 817 824
Eugene II Rome 824 827
Valentine Rome 827 827
Gregory IV Rome 827 844
Sergius II Rome 844 847
St. Leo IV Rome 847 855
Benedict III Rome 855 858
St.NicholasI(the Great) Rome 858 867
Adrian II Rome 867 872
John VIII Rome 872 882
Marinus I Gallese 882 884
St. Adrian III Rome 884 885
Stephen V (VI) Rome 885 891
Formosus Portus 891 896
Boniface VI Rome 896 896
Stephen VI (VII) Rome 896 897
Romanus Gallese 897 897
Theodore II Rome 897 897
John IX Tivoli 898 900
Benedict IV Rome 900 903
Leo V Ardea 903 903
Sergius III Rome 904 911
Anastasius III Rome 911 913
Landus Sabina 913 914
John X Tossignano 914 928
Leo VI Rome 928 928
Stephen VII (VIII) Rome 928 931
John XI Rome 931 935
Leo VII Rome 936 939
Stephen VIII (IX) Rome 9 39 942
Marinus II Rome 942 946
Agapitus II Rome 946 955
John XII Tusculum 955 964
Leo VIII5 Rome 963 965
Benedict V5 Rome 964 966
John XIII Rome 965 972
Benedict VI Rome 973 974
Benedict VII Rome 974 983
John XIV Pavia 983 984
John XV Rome 985 996
Gregory V Saxony 996 999

(Continues)
 
(Continued)

Sylvester II Auvergne 999 1003
John XVII Rome 1003 1003
John XVIII Rome 1004 1009
Sergius IV Rome 1009 1012
Benedict VIII Tusculum 1012 1024
John XIX Tusculum 1024 1032
Benedict IX6 Tusculum 1032 1044
Sylvester III Rome 1045 1045
Benedict IX (2nd time) Tusculum 1045 1045
Gregory VI Rome 1045 1046
Clement II Saxony 1046 1047
Benedict IX (3rd time) Tusculum 1047 1048
Damasus II Bavaria 1048 1048
St. Leo IX Alsace 1049 1054
Victor II Germany 1055 1057
Stephen IX (X) Lorraine 1057 1058
Nicholas II Burgundy 1059 1061
Alexander II Milan 1061 1073
St. Gregory VII Tuscany 1073 1085
Bl. Victor III Benevento 1086 1087
Bl. Urban II France 1088 1099
Paschal II Ravenna 1099 1118
Gelasius II Gaeta 1118 1119
Callistus II Burgundy 1119 1124
Honorius II Flagnano 1124 1130
Innocent II Rome 1130 1143
Celestine II Città di Castello 1143 1144
Lucius II Bologna 1144 1145
Bl. Eugene III Pisa 1145 1153
Anastasius IV Rome 1153 1154
Adrian IV England 1154 1159
Alexander III Siena 1159 1181
Lucius III Lucca 1181 1185
Urban III Milan 1185 1187
Gregory VIII Benevento 1187 1187
Clement III Rome 1187 1191
Celestine III Rome 1191 1198
Innocent III Anagni 1198 1216
Honorius III Rome 1216 1227
Gregory IX Anagni 1227 1241
Celestine IV Milan 1241 1241
Innocent IV Genoa 1243 1254
Alexander IV Anagni 1254 1261
Urban IV Troyes 1261 1264
Clement IV France 1265 1268
Bl. Gregory X Piacenza 1271 1276
Bl. Innocent V Savoy 1276 1276
Adrian V Genoa 1276 1276
John XXI7 Portugal 1276 1277
Nicholas III Rome 1277 1280
Martin IV8 France 1281 1285
Honorius IV Rome 1285 1287
Nicholas IV Ascoli 1288 1292
St. Celestine V Isernia 1294 1294
Boniface VIII Anagni 1294 1303
Bl. Benedict XI Treviso 1303 1304
Clement V France 1305 1314
John XXII Cahors 1316 1334
Benedict XII France 1334 1342
Clement VI France 1342 1352
Innocent VI France 1352 1362
Bl. Urban V France 1362 1370
Gregory XI France 1370 1378
Urban VI Naples 1378 1389
Boniface IX Naples 1389 1404
Innocent VII Sulmona 1404 1406
Gregory XII Venice 1406 1415
Martin V Rome 1417 1431
Eugene IV Venice 1431 1447
Nicholas V Sarzana 1447 1455
Callistus III Jativa 1455 1458
Pius II Siena 1458 1464
Paul II Venice 1464 1471
Sixtus IV Savona 1471 1484
Innocent VIII Genoa 1484 1492
Alexander VI Jativa 1492 1503
Pius III Siena 1503 1503
Julius II Savona 1503 1513
Leo X Florence 1513 1521
Adrian VI Utrecht 1522 1523
Clement VII Florence 1523 1534
Paul III Rome 1534 1549
Julius III Rome 1550 1555
Marcellus II Montepulciano 1555 1555
Paul IV Naples 1555 1559
Pius IV Milan 1559 1565
St. Pius V Bosco 1566 1572
Gregory XIII Bologna 1572 1585
Sixtus V Grottammare 1585 1590
Urban VII Rome 1590 1590
Gregory XIV Cremona 1590 1591
Innocent IX Bologna 1591 1591
Clement VIII Florence 1592 1605
Leo XI Florence 1605 1605
Paul V Rome 1605 1621
Gregory XV Bologna 1621 1623
Urban VIII Florence 1623 1644
Innocent X Rome 1644 1655
Alexander VII Siena 1655 1667
Clement IX Pistoia 1667 1669
Clement X Rome 1670 1676
Bl. Innocent XI Como 1676 1689
Alexander VIII Venice 1689 1691
Innocent XII Spinazzola 1691 1700
Clement XI Urbino 1700 1721
Innocent XIII Rome 1721 1724
Benedict XIII Gravina 1724 1730
Clement XII Florence 1730 1740
Benedict XIV Bologna 1740 1758
Clement XIII Venice 1758 1769
Clement XIV Rimini 1769 1774
Pius VI Cesena 1775 1799
Pius VII Cesena 1800 1823
Leo XII Genga 1823 1829
Pius VIII Cingoli 1829 1830
Gregory XVI Belluno 1831 1846
Pius IX Senegallia 1846 1878
Leo XIII Carpineto 1878 1903
St. Pius X Riese 1903 1914
Benedict XV Genoa 1914 1922
Pius XI Desio 1922 1939
Pius XII Rome 1939 1958
John XXIII Sotto il Monte 1958 1963
Paul VI Concesio 1963 1978
John Paul I Forno di Canale 1978 1978
John Paul II Poland 1978 2005
Benedict XIV Germany 2005
No gaps.
 
I think the discussion here is founded on a false premise. The assumption that is being made here is that Apostolic Succession is Co-terminus with the laying on of hands and the passing of a valid Bishopric. This is only part true. Apostolic Succession in its full form is not fully found in the passing of valid orders but is also found in the preaching of the Apostolic Faith from one generation to the next. At times the faith being proclaimed can be so deficient that it looses the character of being Apostolic in nature such as with the Methodists or the Anglicans, etc. For this reason the orders of Anglicans were deemed invalid because the liturgy itself was deficient. If we understand the nature of liturgy as being the vehicle through which the Sacra Doctrina is passed then we have a fuller understanding as to why Apostolic Succession is first about Doctrine and second about Orders. However, these two principles are directly linked and must be related to the idea that there is not a either or line drawn with all of the separated Christians but rather there is a degrading of unity from strong to weak among Christians who are separated from the Church starting with the Orthodox down to the newest and most deficient Christian creed in existence.
 
quote=Ignatius

No gaps.
[/quote]

Well then there is something wrong with your list. Because there should be several gaps.
 
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JSmitty2005:
Were there gaps in the Church’s European apostolic succession? Also, what is the “Alexandrian Precedent”? I was recently having a discussion with a fellow poster (maybe he’ll find this thread 😉 ) about how Protestants do not have a valid Eucharist because they lack a valid priesthood. He is a Methodist and claimed that their Eucharist was valid. He wrote me the following:

I…know the history of Europe and the “gaps” that occured in apostolic succession, including the Alexandrian Precedent. I suspect that the Kingdom of God is much more interested in the passing on of apostolic tradition than a literal (and, at best, unprovable) hands-on succession.With regard to the precedent in the Church of Alexandria, I found this:

Some Protestant churches, such as Anglicans (including those known in the U.S. as Episcopalians), the Church of Sweden, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvija, do have Apostolic Succession (also known as the “historic episcopate”). Bishops in the United Methodist Church do not claim to be within the historic episcopate. Their succession derives from John Wesley who was an ordained priest of the Church of England, but not himself a bishop and therefore had no power to consecrate others. He justified his practice of ordaining “elders” (“presbyters”) for Methodism by appealing to a perceived need and by citing a minority opinion among the early Church Fathers (and possible ancient precedent from the Church of Alexandria) which held that presbyters (“priests” or “elders”) could, at least collectively, indeed ordain other such presbyters and even consecrate, or “set apart” bishops.Does anyone have any insight on this precedent in Alexandria? Also, can anyone provide a list of apostolic succession for just one bishop of the Catholic Church (excluding the pope)? Thanks!
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Priests have never had the authority to Ordain, even to Ordain Deacons. Many Protestant churches insist that they hold Succession in a See simply because they occupy a certain cathedral and therefore the “Chair” of the See. Possession is not 9/10 of the law sorry. Succession is not granted by the one being succeeded, but by the proper authority granting the Office. A Bishop, Priest or Deacon can only be Ordained by a validly Ordained Bishop. A validly Ordained Bishop only Succeeds another in a See by being given that See by proper authority. If the Succession of valid Ordination is lost. It can only be re-established from outside by validly Ordained Bishops.
 
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JSmitty2005:
What? Why?
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Because as a matter of practicality the incoming pope does not always take office within 30 days of the outgoing pope. There should be several gaps in the dates including a couple of pretty long ones.
 
Br. Rich SFO:
Because as a matter of practicality the incoming pope does not always take office within 30 days of the outgoing pope. There should be several gaps in the dates including a couple of pretty long ones.
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I understand that there is a sede vecante between pontiffs, but I don’t think that that’s what they meant by “gaps.”
 
Br. Rich SFO:
Well then there is something wrong with your list. Because there should be several gaps.
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We’re not talking about the period to elect a successor. The Gaps referred to by protestants are understood to be long (scores or maybe even a century or so). There are no such gaps
 
Br. Rich SFO:
Because as a matter of practicality the incoming pope does not always take office within 30 days of the outgoing pope. There should be several gaps in the dates including a couple of pretty long ones.
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There should be 264 gaps.
 
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Ignatius:
We’re not talking about the period to elect a successor. The Gaps referred to by protestants are understood to be long (scores or maybe even a century or so). There are no such gaps
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I’m speaking of the gaps in dates caused by the period of time it took to elect a successor, during which time we have no pope. I would love to see the historical evidence for the other Protestant list?
 
It’s funny you should mention John Wesley. Although I am on my way into the Roman Church, I have great respect for John Wesley and what did while alive. While I know Apostolic Succession is important, I wonder if sometime if the way it is interpreted, may conflict with our doctrine of the Holy Spirit being an equal person of the Trinity. What if the Holy Spirit decides to use an individual outside the physical limits of the Catholic Church to draw people to Christ??? I have read somewhere that we can certainly say where the Church is, but it may be much harder to determine where the Church is not! John Wesley grew up a Christian, subjected to the historical circumstances of his time and place of birth. If King Henry had never went into schism with Rome, it may be likely that John Wesley would have been a Catholic Priest, rather than an Anglican! Could it be that God used him for what John Wesley would allow Him to accomplish through him for the cause of Christ? Didn’t Jesus say something along the lines that if the people were not taught, the very stones would cry out?
Food for thought!

Alan
 
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apruett:
It’s funny you should mention John Wesley. Although I am on my way into the Roman Church, I have great respect for John Wesley and what did while alive. While I know Apostolic Succession is important, I wonder if sometime if the way it is interpreted, may conflict with our doctrine of the Holy Spirit being an equal person of the Trinity. What if the Holy Spirit decides to use an individual outside the physical limits of the Catholic Church to draw people to Christ??? I have read somewhere that we can certainly say where the Church is, but it may be much harder to determine where the Church is not! John Wesley grew up a Christian, subjected to the historical circumstances of his time and place of birth. If King Henry had never went into schism with Rome, it may be likely that John Wesley would have been a Catholic Priest, rather than an Anglican! Could it be that God used him for what John Wesley would allow Him to accomplish through him for the cause of Christ? Didn’t Jesus say something along the lines that if the people were not taught, the very stones would cry out?
Food for thought!

Alan
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I think that the staff of Catholic Answers would agree with some of what you said considering that I found this article on the website:

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9112prof.asp

However, I do not think that God would ever will further divisions amongst Christians. It is the work of Satan. In fact, all false religions are the work of Satan - Judaism, Freemasonry, Islam, Protestantism, etc.
 
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JSmitty2005:
I think that the staff of Catholic Answers would agree with some of what you said considering that I found this article on the website:

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9112prof.asp

However, I do not think that God would ever will further divisions amongst Christians. It is the work of Satan. In fact, all false religions are the work of Satan - Judaism, Freemasonry, Islam, Protestantism, etc.
Click to expand...
Orthodoxy?
sedevacantists?
 
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apruett:
… What if the Holy Spirit decides to use an individual outside the physical limits of the Catholic Church to draw people to Christ???
…
Alan
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Read St Francis de Sales - The Catholic Controversy.

Immediate selection by God outside the norm that He gave to the Church requires as a minimum, wonders signs and miracles so that the common man may know of the “selected” person’s authenticity. Without such, anyone with the “gift of gab” or illusions, can claim an immediate assignment from the HS.
 
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