A Question for Protestants

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ICXCNIKA

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If you are a Protestant Christian, this question is for you.

When I talk with Protestants about the sinlessness of Mary I meet with resistence.

Can you please tell me, what is the problem with Mary being sinless? Why do you (if you do) have a problem with it?

Thank you.
 
This is one of the issues that’s still a stumbling block for me. I am accepting her role as co-mediator now that I’ve read some explanations, but I still can’t don’t understand why she was sinless.

I don’t know the exact book and verse number, but one verse says it all: “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”

She was honored by God, definitely. She was blessed for her role, yes. But sinless? I’m still uncomfortable with that.
 
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LRThunder:
This is one of the issues that’s still a stumbling block for me. I am accepting her role as co-mediator now that I’ve read some explanations, but I still can’t don’t understand why she was sinless.

I don’t know the exact book and verse number, but one verse says it all: “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”

She was honored by God, definitely. She was blessed for her role, yes. But sinless? I’m still uncomfortable with that.
More biblical and theological proofs of this might follow, but I wish to start with a question “Will God who is perfectly sinless be willing to form in and through a flesh of sinfulness?”
 
Mark 2:22 **And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: otherwise the wine will burst the bottles, and both the wine will be spilled, and the bottles will be lost. But new wine must be put into new bottles. **

This comes to mind when I think about the sinless nature of Mary, Eve old bottle, Mary new, Jesus the New wine, Adam the old.

Could Adam have been born in Mary to save the world ? ----no !
because he was the sinful old wine.
 
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LRThunder:
This is one of the issues that’s still a stumbling block for me. I am accepting her role as co-mediator now that I’ve read some explanations, but I still can’t don’t understand why she was sinless.

I don’t know the exact book and verse number, but one verse says it all: “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”

She was honored by God, definitely. She was blessed for her role, yes. But sinless? I’m still uncomfortable with that.
Thank you. So my question is then, why are you uncomfortable with it?
 
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Eireann:
Mark 2:22 **And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: otherwise the wine will burst the bottles, and both the wine will be spilled, and the bottles will be lost. But new wine must be put into new bottles. **

This comes to mind when I think about the sinless nature of Mary, Eve old bottle, Mary new, Jesus the New wine, Adam the old.

Could Adam have been born in Mary to save the world ? ----no !
because he was the sinful old wine.
Or more precisely, could Jesus Christ, the son of God, have been born to a sinful “old wineskins” type of woman like Eve?
Nope.
 
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LRThunder:
I don’t know the exact book and verse number, but one verse says it all: “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”
And yet “all” doesn’t include Jesus. For many Protestants, neither does “all” include any child who dies before being able to sin against God. That’s an awful lot of exceptions to “all”.
 
I don’t understand how Protestants can take the “all have sinned” verse so literally when Jesus never sinned. Isn’t He included in the “all”? He was God, but He was also fully human. If He was an exception to the “all,” then why can’t his mom be too? Furthermore, the Bible also says that “none are righteous,” but then there are other parts that say that certain people (like St. Joseph) were righteous, so I wouldn’t take the “all have sinned” verse as being absolute either.
 
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christaddict:
More biblical and theological proofs of this might follow, but I wish to start with a question “Will God who is perfectly sinless be willing to form in and through a flesh of sinfulness?”
That’s a good point. I actually thought about that after my post.
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ICXCNIKA:
Thank you. So my question is then, why are you uncomfortable with it?
I was wondering how Mary could’ve been made sinless if she was born to a human father and human mother. I guess the only way was through God’s intervention.
 
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ICXCNIKA:
Thank you. So my question is then, why are you uncomfortable with it?
I was just wondering how she could have been sinless if she had a human father and human mother.

BTW, is there a way to include quotes from multiple posters so I can just make one response?
 
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LRThunder:
BTW, is there a way to include quotes from multiple posters so I can just make one response?
Yes. Use the “edit” button and go back and add to your response. You can do this for 20 minutes after you first post. You can also delete this last post of yours if you’d like to include it in your previous one. PM me if you don’t know what I mean.
 
Very important point:

Mary did not need to be sinless!

It was fitting that she was sinless, but it was not strictly necessary.

If you try and claim that it was necessary for her to be sinless, you fall into the problem of “Infinite Regression” (i.e., Mary had to be sinless in order to bear Christ who was sinless, therefore Mary’s parents had to be sinless in order to bear Mary, etc., etc., therefore Adam and Eve were sinless…).

This is not Catholic teaching. Catholic teaching is that it was fitting.

Here is a link that it would be good for both sides to read if you’re not familiar with arguing this point - it includes typical Protestant objections and sound Catholic responses:

Ark of the New Covenant

God Bless,
RyanL
 
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JSmitty2005:
Yes. Use the “edit” button and go back and add to your response. You can do this for 20 minutes after you first post. You can also delete this last post of yours if you’d like to include it in your previous one. PM me if you don’t know what I mean.
I got it. Thanks.
 
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LRThunder:
I got it. Thanks.
You’re welcome.
I was wondering how Mary could’ve been made sinless if she was born to a human father and human mother. I guess the only way was through God’s intervention.
Yes. It was through God’s intervention. Mary was prevented from the stain of Original Sin through the power of Christ’s grace, so she DID need a savior and benefitted from the crucifixion. She just profited from it before it happened, which is possible with God since time does not bind Him. Also, Mary’s sinlessness is associated with the prophecy of enmity being put between her and Satan as well as her role as the Ark of the New Covenant. Again, it is fitting but not necessary, although we Catholics believe that this was part of God’s plan and will not compromise on this dogma. Just like God was very specific about the construction of the old ark, so too was He specific about the creation of Mary, the new ark. Furthermore, the Jews wanted to be in the presence of the ark because it brought them closer to God. Likewise with Catholics and Mary.
 
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LRThunder:
I don’t know the exact book and verse number, but one verse says it all: “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”

She was honored by God, definitely. She was blessed for her role, yes. But sinless? I’m still uncomfortable with that.
Being raised in an evangelical church I was hammered with this one all my life. Romans 3:23 btw.

There is precedent for the Catholic belief about Mary though. In the OT both Enoch and Elijah were taken directly to heaven. How can that be if they were sinful?
 
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SemperJase:
Being raised in an evangelical church I was hammered with this one all my life. Romans 3:23 btw.

There is precedent for the Catholic belief about Mary though. In the OT both Enoch and Elijah were taken directly to heaven. How can that be if they were sinful?
I remember the teaching of Enoch being taken not because he was sinless but because what he did was pleasing to God.

The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary was assumed into heaven because she was sinless. But what she did in her life was certainly pleasing to God.

As a revert, that verse was hammered quite a bit to me also. Ultimately, whether Protestants *feel *that way or not, Whether they know it or not, they are still Protesting at least one teaching of the Catholic Church, the sinlessness of Mary by the hammering of that verse in Romans.

God Bless,
Maria
 
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SemperJase:
Being raised in an evangelical church I was hammered with this one all my life. Romans 3:23 btw.

There is precedent for the Catholic belief about Mary though. In the OT both Enoch and Elijah were taken directly to heaven. How can that be if they were sinful?
Another good point. I had completely forgotten about Enoch and Elijah.
 
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LRThunder:
This is one of the issues that’s still a stumbling block for me. I am accepting her role as co-mediator now that I’ve read some explanations, but I still can’t don’t understand why she was sinless.
I’m just wondering, from what perspective are you coming? I’m assuming you’re Protestant, but what denomination? Also, remember that the Orthodox also believe that Mary was sinless (actually Muslims believe this too), but they have a different understanding of Original Sin, so they reject the Immaculate Conception…but that’s for the Eastern forums.
 
When an Angel of the Lord appears and says there’s a message form God and the message is sent to “Full of Grace.” I can easily accept her sinlessness for the presence of sin would have to disqualify her as Full of Grace.

And for God, the author of all things come into history, it is FITTING he come into a womb of a woman untainted by the failure of Adam and Eve.

in XT.
 
As a former Protestant (agnostic for 25 years, Protestant for 4, Catholic for 1), I had huge problems with anything relating to Mary. I still have resistance about her (e.g., why pray to anybody else when I have the freedom to pray directly to any person of the Trinity?), but I look forward to getting to know her better.

Why do Protestants have a problem with all things Mary? I think that individual Protestants will not have very solid answers because I think the real problem stems from the Protestant Reformation. The rebellion against Catholicism is so strong that anything that seems uniquely Catholic (Mary) has to be thrown out. Also, the great majority of Protestants truly do think Catholics worship Mary, which is (and should be) abhorrant to them. In fact, too many Catholics think Catholics worship Mary! In my one short year of being Catholic, I have already had numerous experiences of Catholics admitting to “worshipping” Mary or stating that Jesus’ divinity comes from His mother Mary or stating that Mary herself is divine (even one woman who said Mary is part of the Trinity). We cannot expect Protestants to understand the proper devotion (hyperdulia) given to Mary if so many Catholics do not understand.

I noticed, even as a Protestant, that when studies on “women of the Bible” were completed, Mary was virtually ignored. Mary might be mentioned as a nice, upstanding lady in passing, then the teachers would spend lots of time on women of the Bible who were mentioned only briefly (like the prostitute who hid the spies and, as a result, was saved when the city was destroyed). I would like to ask individual Protestants what they think of the mother of Jesus (don’t say “mother of God” to them!) is ignored in comparison to other women of the Bible. Even if all of the Catholic teachings are not true (immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, assumption), shouldn’t Mary receive much attention and respect?

I understand that it is fitting, but not necessary, that Mary remained sinless. I also was taught a very helpful way to think of her sinlessness: ALL who are sanctified (saved) are sanctified through Jesus. There is only one door to the Father and that is through Jesus. However, not all have been saved in the same manner. One can be saved from a mud pit in two ways: The person can fall into the mud pit and be pulled out by the rescuer, OR the rescuer can shout out ahead of time, “Look out! A mud pit!” and push the person to safety. Those folks who find themselves in purgatory or heaven were saved the first way, but Mary was kept sinless the second way. God is outside of time, so He was able to keep Mary sinless ahead of time through the Redeemer who came after her own conception. This is my understanding, so any errors are mine, not my catechist’s.

Here is a question I still have about Mary: If she was kept sinless by God, why does she deserve so much respect for her fiat? If you were sinless, wouldn’t you do all of God’s will easily as well? If somebody gave you the gift of sinlessness, wouldn’t obeying be extremely easy? I do not ask this question to be disrespectful but out of sincere confusion.
 
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