Agape is not love

[laocmo]

I read earlier that agape love is related to obedience and commitment, and not necessarily feeling and emotion. For instance the way to know that we love (agape) God is that we keep His commandments. In other words agape implies, “Listen up now and obey orders. Do as you are told. It may not be pleasant but do it anyway” Sounds like all the SS had a great deal of agape for Hitler and Himmler doesn’t it. Why did anyone ever start calling agape love in the first place if it is just unemotional willingness to do your duty.

Another type “love” is phileo, which means “to have a special interest in someone or something, frequently with focus on close association; have affection for, like, consider someone a friend.” I find it impossible to have this kind of love for a completely non-comprehensible God who is defined by his restrictive attributes as mentioned earlier.

Another Greek word we have is storge, which is the love and affection that naturally occurs between parents and children, between siblings, and exists between husbands and wives in a good marriage.

The second and last form of love are the only ones that really sound like love to me. Agape is something else completely.

 

[Wesrock]

A son or daughter who obeys his father out of love is an example of agape.

A soldier obeying a command they don’t like because of chain of command is not.

 

[edward_george]

peterkreeft.com/topics/love.htm

 

[davidv]

I read earlier that agape love is related to obedience and commitment, and not necessarily feeling and emotion. For instance the way to know that we love (agape) God is that we keep His commandments. In other words agape implies, “Listen up now and obey orders. Do as you are told. It may not be pleasant but do it anyway” Sounds like all the SS had a great deal of agape for Hitler and Himmler doesn’t it. Why did anyone ever start calling agape love in the first place if it is just unemotional willingness to do your duty.

Another type “love” is phileo, which means “to have a special interest in someone or something, frequently with focus on close association; have affection for, like, consider someone a friend.” I find it impossible to have this kind of love for a completely non-comprehensible God who is defined by his restrictive attributes as mentioned earlier.

Another Greek word we have is storge, which is the love and affection that naturally occurs between parents and children, between siblings, and exists between husbands and wives in a good marriage.

The second and last form of love are the only ones that really sound like love to me. Agape is something else completely.

Where did you get the definitions above? They are not consistent with these:
Wikipedia:

Agápe (ἀγάπη agápē[1]) means “love: esp. brotherly love, charity; the love of God for man and of man for God.”[2] Agape is used in ancient texts to denote feelings for one’s children and the feelings for a spouse, and it was also used to refer to a love feast.[3] Agape is used by Christians to express the unconditional love of God for his children.[4] This type of love was further explained by Thomas Aquinas as “to will the good of another.”[5]
Éros (ἔρως érōs) means “love, mostly of the sexual passion.”[6] The Modern Greek word “erotas” means “intimate love.” Plato refined his own definition: Although eros is initially felt for a person, with contemplation it becomes an appreciation of the beauty within that person, or even becomes appreciation of beauty itself. Plato does not talk of physical attraction as a necessary part of love, hence the use of the word platonic to mean, “without physical attraction.” In the Symposium, the most famous ancient work on the subject, Plato has Socrates argue that eros helps the soul recall knowledge of beauty, and contributes to an understanding of spiritual truth, the ideal “Form” of youthful beauty that leads us humans to feel erotic desire – thus suggesting that even that sensually based love aspires to the non-corporeal, spiritual plane of existence; that is, finding its truth, just like finding any truth, leads to transcendence.[7] Lovers and philosophers are all inspired to seek truth through the means of eros.
Philia (φιλία philía) means “affectionate regard, friendship,” usually “between equals.”[8] It is a dispassionate virtuous love, a concept developed by Aristotle.[9] In his best-known work on ethics, Nicomachean Ethics, philia is expressed variously as loyalty to friends, family, and community, and requires virtue, equality, and familiarity. Furthermore, in the same text philos denotes a general type of love, used for love between family, between friends, a desire or enjoyment of an activity, as well as between lovers.
Storge (στοργή storgē) means “love, affection” and “especially of parents and children”[10] It’s the common or natural empathy, like that felt by parents for offspring.[11] Rarely used in ancient works, and then almost exclusively as a descriptor of relationships within the family. It is also known to express mere acceptance or putting up with situations, as in “loving” the tyrant.

 

[DCNBILL]

Agape is the highest form of love.

It is the outpouring of ones self for the other without the need or desire for response.

It is Christ on the Cross.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Agape is unconditional love. God’s love for us is unconditional. A mother can have unconditional love for her child. And would do anything for it, even die. Real love involves sacrificing oneself. Otherwise it would just be a selfish love if you were not willing to suffer for the beloved. You would be just using them to get what you wanted, not really looking out for their best interest, and putting your own desires over their needs.

When Jesus says, ‘If you love me you will obey my commandments’, he does so not as a dictator, but in the context of a relationship. Similarly, when Moses gave the ten commandments it wasn’t legalism as some think. The Jews were not under legalism. Rather they were in a relationship with God. Every relationship has rules. It’s like dating someone who you start to see exclusively. When you become engaged to that person there are rules, like for instance you can no longer date anyone else. And when you marry this person there are even more rules. It would not be much of a relationship if there were no rules or everything you did was to serve yourself and not the other person.

 

[billcu1]

Are we capable of this really when not in grace? Does sin destroy agape in its’ entirety? Is part of being in sin not having agape or being capable of it without grace?

 

[fisherman_carl]

God created us as persons. Thus, God is even more of a person than we are. Because you can not give what you don’t possess in some form. I was listening to this on ewtn live where Anthony Rizzi mentioned this. Only persons can have personal relationships. And since God is a person, 3 actually, he can have a relationship with us. There is no need to fully understand God to have a relationship with him right now.

If I were you I would just let go of your preconceptions of God that are keeping you from having a relationship with him. They are just not useful if they are getting in the way. We are not meant to understand everything about God. Too much information too fast that we don’t know how to process or have a framework for can actually be harmful to us. The most important thing we should know about God is that he loves us and sent his Son for us. He wants us to be in right relationship with him and our fellow persons.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Are we capable of this really when not in grace? Does sin destroy agape in its’ entirety? Is part of being in sin not having agape or being capable of it without grace?

No I don’t think so. As someone said, it’s unconditional love like the love of a mother for her child. She would give her life for her child because she loves the child that much. Whether she is a sinful woman or not, the child means that much to her.

Other kinds of love have conditions attached to them. You can love your friends but you wouldn’t lay down your life for them usually.

 

[billcu1]

No I don’t think so. As someone said, it’s unconditional love like the love of a mother for her child. She would give her life for her child because she loves the child that much. Whether she is a sinful woman or not, the child means that much to her.

Other kinds of love have conditions attached to them. You can love your friends but you wouldn’t lay down your life for them usually.

Yeah I see. And their are women too who could care less about their kids. They do exist too. Unfortunately.

 

[Latias]

Agape is unconditional love. God’s love for us is unconditional. A mother can have unconditional love for her child. And would do anything for it, even die. Real love involves sacrificing oneself. Otherwise it would just be a selfish love if you were not willing to suffer for the beloved. You would be just using them to get what you wanted, not really looking out for their best interest, and putting your own desires over their needs.

The people in the SS legion Charlemagne certainly had “agape” for Nazism as they sacrificed themselves in the Battle of Berlin.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The people in the SS legion Charlemagne certainly had “agape” for Nazism as they sacrificed themselves in the Battle of Berlin.

I think that’s called “following orders”.

 

[Latias]

I think that’s called “following orders”.

Do you know the Battle of Berlin? They choose to die; they could have surrendered (to the Western Allies if they hated the Soviets), but they choose not to. They fought for an ideological imperative.

 

[fisherman_carl]

The people in the SS legion Charlemagne certainly had “agape” for Nazism as they sacrificed themselves in the Battle of Berlin.

No, that is not love, but fear.

 

[Latias]

No, that is not love, but fear.

The Waffen SS were volunteers. They had some ideological affinity towards Nazism. They probably didn’t want to die at Berlin, as they certainly preferred to raise the Swastika on the Kremlin or capture some Caucasus oilfields for the Reich, but they assumed some personal risk to defend the Reich and advance its military objectives.

The Waffen SS Legion Charlemagne could have attempted to surrender to the Western Allies.

 

[fisherman_carl]

At first when thinking about some of God’s attributes Like his immutability and his timelessness I thought to myself how can one relate to such a being? But, now I think instead of being an impediment to having a relationship it actually makes it possible to have one. When I love someone my love is usually imperfect compared to God’s perfect love. And I can only love a few people at a time because I am limited. Whereas with God he can have a relationship with everyone at all times. And He could do all of this from his eternal now. So rather than his characteristics inhibiting him from having a relationship with us it is what makes it possible for each one of us to have that relationship with him. And his incomprehensibility just increases my awe and admiration of his magnificence.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

At first when thinking about some of God’s attributes Like his immutability and his timelessness I thought to myself how can one relate to such a being? But, now I think instead of being an impediment to having a relationship it actually makes it possible to have one. When I love someone my love is usually imperfect compared to God’s perfect love. And I can only love a few people at a time because I am limited. Whereas with God he can have a relationship with everyone at all times. And He could do all of this from his eternal now. So rather than his characteristics inhibiting him from having a relationship with us it is what makes it possible for each one of us to have that relationship with him. And his incomprehensibility just increases my awe and admiration of his magnificence.

Amen, Carl!

 

[laocmo]

Regarding a soldier blindly following orders not being agape.

I think that’s called “following orders”.

A son or daughter who obeys his father out of love is an example of agape.

I had a college roommate in the '60s whose older brother was a member of the Hitler Youth group. His brother loved Hitler so much that he would have gladly died for his cause. Later he became an SS officer. His love for Hitler was so great that he gladly died in Berlin, not just following orders, but truly believing in his love for Hitler and the German cause. We would certainly call that Agape, by all the definitions given here. But that Agape should never be called love!

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Regarding a soldier blindly following orders not being agape.

I had a college roommate in the '60s whose older brother was a member of the Hitler Youth group. His brother loved Hitler so much that he would have gladly died for his cause. Later he became an SS officer. His love for Hitler was so great that he gladly died in Berlin, not just following orders, but truly believing in his love for Hitler and the German cause. We would certainly call that Agape, by all the definitions given here. But that Agape should never be called love!

I would not call that agape. I would call that infatuation with a powerful figure almost to the point of having not thoughts or judgement. No doubt your friend was smitten by Hitler, but I am sure it was not motivated out of unselfish love. Read 1Corinthians 13 for the perfect description of agape love.

 

[DCNBILL]

Regarding a soldier blindly following orders not being agape.

I had a college roommate in the '60s whose older brother was a member of the Hitler Youth group. His brother loved Hitler so much that he would have gladly died for his cause. Later he became an SS officer. His love for Hitler was so great that he gladly died in Berlin, not just following orders, but truly believing in his love for Hitler and the German cause. We would certainly call that Agape, by all the definitions given here. But that Agape should never be called love!

Note that the intent of a soldier is not to give their life for the other but to kill the other, no soldier puts down his arms and walks out in the middle of the battlefield and yells, “For my love of Hitler,” as he is riddled with bullets.

If you really want a story of agape from WWII look up Maximilian Kolbe, he acted out of agape love.