Alfie's Assertion That Confession is Optional

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Originally Posted by Church Militant
Protestantism’s OSAS works out as nothing more than a vehicle for rationalizing sin in a person’s life without worthwhile accountability or contrition, since they don’t have to actually face another believer to confess their sins and risk those sins being retained if the confessor senses a lack of real contrition and purpose to amend their life.
Originally Posted by Alfie
According to you every Protestant is a hypocrite.So what you are saying is that for those twenty eight years you were an evengelical you were too. I know a number of Spirit filled Evangelicals and they have to ask for forgiveness for their sins all of the time. There is no such thing as a perfect Christian. In Romans 7:14-25 Paul writes “My own behavior baffles me”. "For I find myself not doing what I really want to do but doing what I really loathe…I often find that I have the will to do good, but not the power. That is, I don’t accomplish the good I set out to do, and the evil I don’t really want to do I find I am always doing…It is agonizing situation, and who on earth can set me free from the clutches of my sinful nature? Then he adds, “I thank God there is a way out through Jesus Christ our Lord.” The Bible tells us that if we walk in the Spirit, we will not fullfill the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16).

I could say the same thing about Catholics going to confession. Most Catholics I know go out and commit the same sins they confess to a priest. The Bible does say to confess your sins to one another, but that is by choice. It is not a commandment. That doesn’t mean you have to go to a priest to confess. It can be any believer. A priest cannot forgive and grant absolution from your sins.
Originally Posted by Alfie
All sin is mortal. The division of sin between venial and mortal sin is based on self righteousness. People want to think they are better than other people because they don’t commit certain sins. Someone on this forum said that if there was no such thing as mortal sin then Jesus would not have had to die on the cross. That is a frightening statement. The Bible says “All have come short of the Glory of God”.I’m well familiar with the passages that you cite, and no Catholic would deny them, however, the fact that one struggles with sin does not invalidate one’s faith. It just gives us another reason to thank God for the sacramental provisions that He has equiped the church with for our help and growth.

Obedience brings more grace and ultimately victory and peace. What does the Word of God say to do when we sin? Confess it. (James 5:16 & 1st John 1:9) This concept goes all the way back to the Old Testament if you look into it.
The Bible does say to confess your sins to one another, but that is by choice. It is not a commandment.
No ma’am it does not. It is by command. Nothing in any of the passages on confession of sins in the Word of God offer it as optional. If you can provide me with chapter and verse to show that it is “by choice”, then I’ll gladly admit I am wrong, but it won’t happen…because I know my Bible well enough to make that statement with full confidence. But please… feel free to offer whatever you think willl support that belief of yours. I have opened a new thread over in apologetics just for this discussion, so please offer what you will.
Pax tecum,

P.S. Please note that this thread is not really about OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved or eternal security of the believer.) It is a discussion of the commmandment of the Word of God to confess our sins and to help clarify for Alfie (and perhaps others) the need and provision in the Word of God for the Sacrament of Reconcilliation. OSAS is strictly a side issue and has been dealt with many times before in other threads. Please stick with the topic of confession.
 
That’s why the passage in John 20:21-23 is so important.
“21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”
Pax tecum,
 
Just because Catholics commit the same sins over and over and then go to confession doesnt mean that is how it SHOULD be. We are called to stop all sin.

IN Christ.

Andre.
 
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Magicsilence:
Just because Catholics commit the same sins over and over and then go to confession doesnt mean that is how it SHOULD be. We are called to stop all sin.
IN Christ.
Andre.
Any person who repeatedly commits the same sin must sincerely examine if he or she is truly sorry. How can you truly be sorry, tell God you detest your sins, you’re sorry for having offended Him, because you dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell, but most of all because they offend God, who is all good and deserving of all of your love, you firmly resolve to confess your sins, to do penance and to amend your life, and then turn around and commit the same sin?
 
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Tom:
Any person who repeatedly commits the same sin must sincerely examine if he or she is truly sorry. How can you truly be sorry, tell God you detest your sins, you’re sorry for having offended Him, because you dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell, but most of all because they offend God, who is all good and deserving of all of your love, you firmly resolve to confess your sins, to do penance and to amend your life, and then turn around and commit the same sin?
If you’ve ever had to deal with drug addicts or alcoholics, you’d know the answer to your question.

There are people who cannot maintain a resolve.
 
It’s called being human 😦 We slip up whether we want to or not - and if we waited till we were certain we’re not going to sin again before we went to confession, well we’d never go because we can never be certain, it’s that simple.

Of course if we find ourselves repeating the same sins again and again it’s a sign that we need to look for the underlying cause of the sin and do something about it.

This is not as easy as it sounds, or else noone would ever have recurring sins, and in the meantime the main thing is to be sincere in our efforts to cease and confess early and often, since confession itself confers graces that can help us overcome.
 
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Tom:
Any person who repeatedly commits the same sin must sincerely examine if he or she is truly sorry. How can you truly be sorry, tell God you detest your sins, you’re sorry for having offended Him, because you dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell, but most of all because they offend God, who is all good and deserving of all of your love, you firmly resolve to confess your sins, to do penance and to amend your life, and then turn around and commit the same sin?
Speaking from experience, people who are in the throes of addiction have lost the ability to choose, in that moment, to not commit the sin. The addiction controls their behavior. How sorry they are is totally irrelevant. The only thing they can do is learn to avoid the thing, situation, thought, etc. that causes them to lose temporary control. Easier said than done. It takes a lot of work, a lot of confession, but eventually it can be overcome.
 
There is an extremely good talk on Confession here. . .
trueteaching.net/

I have only listened to part one as I just came across it yesterday but what I have heard was excellent.
 
Church Militant:
John 20:21-23
"21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
"
Pax tecum,My thinking is that if our Lord had not intended to make the Sacrament of Reconcilliation a means of grace unto salvation, then why in the world would He have made this statement and given both this power and command to the presbyters of His church?

James 5:16 & 1st John 1:9 also offer us more insight into this doctrine.

James 5: 14 Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

1st John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.

All these passages expressly speak of confession of sins and so I have to ask, then just how will those outside the Catholic Church explain the obvious link between these passages.

Here is a further outline for study on this sacrament courtesy of John Martignoni and his Bible Christian Society
Confession
A. Confess your sins to men
~ Leviticus 5:5-6 (“All scripture…”: 2 Tim 3:16)
(Law is a shadow: Hebrews 10:1)
~ 1 John 1:9
~ James 5:16
B. Can men forgive sins?
~ Only God has the power to forgive sins but He exercises this power through men.
~ Mark 2:7
~ Matthew 9:1-8
When the crowds saw it, they were afraid , and the glorified God, who had given such authority to men.
  • Matthew 9:8
To me, the scriptures are clear, and I can’t help but praise and thank God for His wisdom and mercy that (knowing the weaknesses of mankind) equiped His church with the means to help His children overcome our weaknesses and sins.
Pax vobiscum,
 
vern humphrey:
If you’ve ever had to deal with drug addicts or alcoholics, you’d know the answer to your question. There are people who cannot maintain a resolve.
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Tmaque:
Speaking from experience, people who are in the throes of addiction have lost the ability to choose, in that moment, to not commit the sin. The addiction controls their behavior. How sorry they are is totally irrelevant. The only thing they can do is learn to avoid the thing, situation, thought, etc. that causes them to lose temporary control. Easier said than done. It takes a lot of work, a lot of confession, but eventually it can be overcome.
Addiction removes, either partially or completely, the guilt of sin. A sin cannot be committed without the free will of the person. Only God can determine if the person has the capacity to sin. If the act is completely out of his or her control there is no sin, there may be a crime in terms of society, but only God knows the persons heart, will and intention. As I’m certain you know, but for the help of others, the CCC has wonderful explanations of sin.
 
So…Alfie,
Is there any other aspect of this Biblical doctrine that you don’t understand?
Pax tecum,
 
Am I stupid? I just don’t get how come protestants always say they know lots of Catholics that go confess their sins with no intention to quit sinning in that manner. I was raised Catholic and around lots of Catholics and I have never known anyone that has intentionally done this. For that matter…I don’t think it ever occured to me not to be sincere in confession. Confession or reconcilliation is one of the most misunderstood sacraments. It feels good to go talk to your priest and tell him what you have done wrong. I think it shows humility and true contrition to tell someone your sins and discuss how to avoid them in the future. My priest is awesome when we go in for reconcilliation…
Do any of you Protestants out there really believe that Catholics just go in, pick up our “get out of hell free card” and go back along our merry little way? That is the way you make it seem. When I go to reconcilliation, I spend pretty much all day examining my conscience, finding the what’s and why’s of my actions. I also look at how they affect others besides myself. It is a pretty lengthy process cause I am definitely not a saint yet. When I go in and confess, it is truly an awesome feeling. You can feel the grace and mercy come over you. I know it must sound scary to those of you who have never had this experience, but really it is not! A confessor is the one person you can trust to not judge you . When we go to confession we know that what we say isn’t going to get repeated all over town either. I would challenge our protestant brethern here to try it some time…you will love it!!!
 
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BlestOne:
Am I stupid? I just don’t get how come protestants always say they know lots of Catholics that go confess their sins with no intention to quit sinning in that manner. I was raised Catholic and around lots of Catholics and I have never known anyone that has intentionally done this. For that matter…I don’t think it ever occured to me not to be sincere in confession. Confession or reconcilliation is one of the most misunderstood sacraments. It feels good to go talk to your priest and tell him what you have done wrong. I think it shows humility and true contrition to tell someone your sins and discuss how to avoid them in the future. My priest is awesome when we go in for reconcilliation…
Do any of you Protestants out there really believe that Catholics just go in, pick up our “get out of hell free card” and go back along our merry little way? That is the way you make it seem. When I go to reconcilliation, I spend pretty much all day examining my conscience, finding the what’s and why’s of my actions. I also look at how they affect others besides myself. It is a pretty lengthy process cause I am definitely not a saint yet. When I go in and confess, it is truly an awesome feeling. You can feel the grace and mercy come over you. I know it must sound scary to those of you who have never had this experience, but really it is not! A confessor is the one person you can trust to not judge you . When we go to confession we know that what we say isn’t going to get repeated all over town either. I would challenge our protestant brethern here to try it some time…you will love it!!!
I think someone who doesn’t believe in ‘go and sin no more’ will tend to not believe in going to Confession at all anyways. People who do go would tend to go precisely because they are serious about it.
 
I PMd her a link to this thread, so she knows it’s here guys…
 
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BlestOne:
Do any of you Protestants out there really believe that Catholics just go in, pick up our “get out of hell free card” and go back along our merry little way?
Well I’m not a Protestant but I know quite a few Protestants who think this way. It continues to amaze me though, how these very same people often believe in OSAS. No matter what they do - murder, child pornography, adultery, etc. - it doesn’t impact their salvation at all as long as one point in their life they accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Now tell me which group really thinks they have a “get out of hell free card” ???!!!
 
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Elzee:
Well I’m not a Protestant but I know quite a few Protestants who think this way. It continues to amaze me though, how these very same people often believe in OSAS. No matter what they do - murder, child pornography, adultery, etc. - it doesn’t impact their salvation at all as long as one point in their life they accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Now tell me which group really thinks they have a “get out of hell free card” ???!!!
Yeah there seem to be some real flaws in that thinking don’t there?

The teachings that I’ve heard from non-Catholics on this are mostly that when they see they have sinned they are supposed to stop and confess it to Christ right then, about the way we do an Act of Contrition for venial sins, but that lacks a lot in the scriptural context of confession of sins. :hmmm:
 
Well, Alfie…you have a thread where you can make the case for what you say you disagree with the Catholic Church about.

So…where are you? Please c’mon and “straighten us out.” :whistle:
 
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Magicsilence:
Just because Catholics commit the same sins over and over and then go to confession doesnt mean that is how it SHOULD be. We are called to stop all sin.

IN Christ.

Andre.
Yes, but a number of Catholics (Church Militant among them) have made the statement that Evangelicals use the argument of “once saved always saved” to justify living a sinfull life. There are some that do believe that they can live anyway they choose. They take grace to the extreme but they are not the majority of Evangelicals.
 
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Alfie:
Yes, but a number of Catholics (Church Militant among them) have made the statement that Evangelicals use the argument of “once saved always saved” to justify living a sinfull life. There are some that do believe that they can live anyway they choose. They take grace to the extreme but they are not the majority of Evangelicals.
A good point. So maybe we should all discard both extremes and work on the more realistic middle ground?

I suspect that CM will readily admit that he didn’t mean ALL evangelicals (or whoever believes in OSAS) are like that. (Maybe he’ll swing in here and clarify that for us.)

However, this thread is not an attack on or discussion of OSAS…it is about the Sacrament of Reconcilliatition (Confession) and how it fulfills the scriptures. Unlike the non-Catholic versions of confession of sins.
 
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