Allah the Deceiver?

[George_Waters]

4.157 . And because of their saying : We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary , Allah ’ s messenger They slew him not nor crucified , but it appeared so unto them ; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof ; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture ; they slew him not for certain ,
4.158 . But Allah took him up unto Himself . Allah was ever Mighty , wise .

So, Allah deceived the people and then allowed those deceived to create the world’s largest religion? This makes no logical sense what so ever unless Allah does not care about the bulk of humanity and has predestined the majority of us to hell for believing his deceit. Would someone like to explain how this is the act of a loving god?

 

[inJESUS]

have you read the thread : “it appeared to them” doctrine? you’ll understand better this “vague” verse

 

[inJESUS]

But they (the Jews) were crafty, and God was crafty, for God is the best of crafty ones! When God said, 'O Jesus! I will make Thee die and take Thee up again to me and will clear thee of those who misbelieve, and will make those who follow thee above those who misbelieve, at the day of judgment, then to me is your return. I will decide between you concerning that wherein ye disagree. S. 3:54-55 Palmer

And:

And when those who misbelieve were crafty with thee to detain thee a prisoner, or kill thee, or drive thee forth; they were crafty, but God was crafty too, for God is best of crafty ones! S. 8:30 Palmer

So they schemed a scheme: and We schemed a scheme, while they perceived not. S. 27:50

translated as “deceiver” as well.

 

[Muslim]

4.157 . And because of their saying : We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary , Allah ’ s messenger They slew him not nor crucified , but it appeared so unto them ; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof ; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture ; they slew him not for certain ,
4.158 . But Allah took him up unto Himself . Allah was ever Mighty , wise .

So, Allah deceived the people and then allowed those deceived to create the world’s largest religion? This makes no logical sense what so ever unless Allah does not care about the bulk of humanity and has predestined the majority of us to hell for believing his deceit. Would someone like to explain how this is the act of a loving god?

it appeared to teh Roman soldiers so they would not go around hunting Jesus again…

 

[Eden]

Muslim:

it appeared to teh Roman soldiers so they would not go around hunting Jesus again…

That doesn’t make sense. Firstly, because Mary and John and other witnesses were at the crucifixion as well. God would not deceive so that Christianity would flourish for 600 years before Muhammed and then continue to grow to 2 billion across the planet after 2,000 years.

Apostle John wrote in1 John 1:1 concerning the crucifixion: “What we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life”. Was not John accurately reporting the things he actually saw, things that “Allah made appear to happen”? How can Muslims claim that they believe any of the New Testament was originally revealed by God, since the corruption must have begun at the cross?

Secondly, there were witnesses to the Resurrected Christ. The apostles received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost when the Risen Christ came in through a closed door.

The book, Islam and Christianity Today says “By the standards of modern historiography, the crucifixion of Jesus is one of the most certain events in past history” (Watt, Islam and Christianity Today, p. 144). What historical evidence do you give outside of the Quran that Jesus did not die on across?

1. 
   *]

 

[Cyber_Knight]

So if we read the Quran… about Jesus’ cruxifixion, then like David Wood said, Allah starts Christianity by Accident.

Allah become deceptive God and Jesus become incompetent Messiah.

Hmmm…

www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/deceptive_god.htm

 

[freedomm]

Cyber Knight:

So if we read the Quran… about Jesus’ cruxifixion, then like David Wood said, Allah starts Christianity by Accident.

Allah become deceptive God and Jesus become incompetent Messiah.

Dear Cyber Knight:

It is not Allah’s business to twist your arm or break your legs to bring you to His Message that He sent from time to time through His Prophets.

If you did not listen to Jesus’ message and did not preserve it properly, then it is your mistake because God has given free choice to all men otherwise He could have made all people His followers from our birth and there was no need to choose people from among us and convey His revelation to guide us.

Now you are asking a very “good” stupid question by not realising it’s implication. This allows me to ask you counter questions:

If I read your Catholicism, Catechism and your Church’s stance towards millions of Protestants, then your God created Protestants by accident.

And your supposed God (Jesus) would not have “died” if Judas the traitor had not betrayed Jesus and Jews (especially the Scribes and the Pharisess, the brood of vipors, fools, blind people, snakes) had listen to Jesus’ message.

If all the people of Jesus’ time had hearken to Jesus’ Message and followed him, then there was no question of Jesus getting convicted and “crucified” and “killed”.

If Jesus was peacefull all the time in his whole life and merely mind his own business or sat in a synagogue and do hallaluyas all the time, chant some mantras from Torah or lived and behaved atleast like Mother Teresa, then do you think people still would have been after his life and try to “kill” him?

Why do you think these same Jews used to kill their own Prophets of God?

Did you realise how stupid question you raised that made me to ask the above questions?

​

 

[Cyber_Knight]

Dear Freedumm,

It is not Allah’s business to twist your arm or break your legs to bring you to His Message that He sent from time to time through His Prophets.

LOL… Its my business to examine wether your prophet is true prophet or just a fake and narcissist person.

If you did not listen to Jesus’ message and did not preserve it properly, then it is your mistake because God has given free choice to all men otherwise He could have made all people His followers from our birth and there was no need to choose people from among us and convey His revelation to guide us.

You mean he also could deceive us? Didnt your allah know that he made a big mistake by deceiving Christians? We are #1 remember?.. and you, if you claim to be the true religion, then why your allah couldnt make it for the alst 1400 years?.. Dont you think your prophet is false one?

Now you are asking a very “good” stupid question by not realising it’s implication. This allows me to ask you counter questions:
If I read your Catholicism, Catechism and your Church’s stance towards millions of Protestants, then your God created Protestants by accident.

And your supposed God (Jesus) would not have “died” if Judas the traitor had not betrayed Jesus and Jews (especially the Scribes and the Pharisess, the brood of vipors, fools, blind people, snakes) had listen to Jesus’ message.

If all the people of Jesus’ time had hearken to Jesus’ Message and followed him, then there was no question of Jesus getting convicted and “crucified” and “killed”.

If Jesus was peacefull all the time in his whole life and merely mind his own business or sat in a synagogue and do hallaluyas all the time, chant some mantras from Torah or lived and behaved atleast like Mother Teresa, then do you think people still would have been after his life and try to “kill” him?

Why do you think these same Jews used to kill their own Prophets of God?

First of all… freedumb mean justice2006 mean bible verses… we call tu quoque… You counter back my statements with other statement that has nothing to do with original post here by my brother George Waters. We are talking about Jesus appeared to them (roman soldiers and disciples) as somebody else… Judas… maybe… or anything muhammad think it would fit ( I heard no exact name who as as Jesus subtitute in your books, is that right?).

Did you realise how stupid question you raised that made me to ask the above questions?

I didnt raise stupid question, on the contrary, you have show how stupid you are again and again on this forum… face it freedumb, you have nothing to say here. You may leave the forum now… thanks for joining!!!

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam George;
Among the tenets of the Christian religion, which ones are tied to the act of crucifixion?
Is tied to the crucifixion the Doctrine of trinity?
Is tied to the crucifixion the doctrine of original sin?
Is tied to crucifixion the belief that Jesus is the Son of God?
Is tied to the crucifixion the belief that Jesus is God?
Is tied to crucifixion the belief that Jesus was God incarnate?

The answer is NO to all the above questions about the central tenets of Christianity, so why do you state that “Allah deceived the people and then allowed those deceived to create the world’s largest religion”

To my knowledge the only thing that is tied to crucifixion is the belief that Jesus died for the sins of mankind, but this is an innovation made by the people, this is what I see as the true deception. It was innovated to make it easy for the pagans’ gentiles to embrace the new religion.
Do you remember the verse: “His blood be on us and on our children”? This is what the Holy Spirit supposedly inspired one of the apostles to write, as a consequence millions of Jews were massacred, killed, persecuted by the Christians across the ages, and this is what started what is commonly known as anti-Semitism. So God died on the cross to save human kind but in the same breath signed the death of millions of his chosen people? To return the same remark to you, is this the act of a loving god?

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[JimG]

For an impartial, historical, answer to the question of why Jesus was cruicified, you might want to read this.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I Cor 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,** and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. **

If Jesus did not really die, would he not be a deciever NOT to set the record straight during these appearances? And, if Jesus is a deciever then he can not be a good man, nor a prophet worth following.

1 Kings 22:22
" ‘By what means?’ the LORD asked. " ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. " ‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’

1 Kings 22:23
“So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.”

2 Chronicles 18:21
" ‘I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. " ‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’

2 Chronicles 18:22
“So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.”

How do you all understand these verses?

 

[inJESUS]

Dear Cyber Knight:

.

If you did not listen to Jesus’ message and did not preserve it properly,

sorry, your allah said Jesus’ message will prevail where is it?

then it is your mistake because God has given free choice to all men otherwise He could have made all people His followers from our birth and there was no need to choose people from among us and convey His revelation to guide us.

so jews and Christians made a “mistake”, together? did they sit on a table and changed both NT and OT so that they match about Jesus? …but only muslims did not make a mistake?so allah allowed billions to be “deceived” by “corrupt” Book but did not allow it to quran?indeed allah is a discriminating arab but hey, allah said Jesus’ message will prevail…oh my…

If I read your Catholicism, Catechism and your Church’s stance towards millions of Protestants, then your God created Protestants by accident.
​

there was no “decent trick” made by God here.

And your supposed God (Jesus) would not have “died” if Judas the traitor had not betrayed Jesus and Jews (especially the Scribes and the Pharisess, the brood of vipors, fools, blind people, snakes) had listen to Jesus’ message.

If all the people of Jesus’ time had hearken to Jesus’ Message and followed him, then there was no question of Jesus getting convicted and “crucified” and “killed”.

“if” questions do not work. What happened happened, AFTER that you rationalize.

If Jesus was peacefull all the time

in his whole life and merely mind his own business or sat in a synagogue and do hallaluyas all the time, chant some mantras from Torah or lived and behaved atleast like Mother Teresa, then do you think people still would have been after his life and try to “kill” him?Jesus is peaceful despite all your ignorant claims…and you guess why he was killed…the “woe” words is not “violence”…God is not pc regarding salvation.

The question of the OP is still valid : the biggest irrational trick of the millenium…how did it happen?
​

​

 

[inJESUS]

In my first thread about Jesus’ crucifixion, i got no response as to what happened to the exalted prophet Jesus according to quran…Joseph if not mistaken said that no one was killed that day, which i find absurd given the huge historical manuscripts about Jesus’ crucifixion…our new brother Muslim said another guy died which is even more absurd for a thousand reason…according to my experience, some muslims think Joseph’s idea is absurd, others think that Muslim’s idea is absurd…in fact, both are equally absurd…obviously, the quran, after 23 years of revelations in clear arabic so that all can understand, was not clear enough about what “it appreared to them” means…a closer look at history reveals what mohammad meant…let’s read:

PS: i had to translate this…sorry for my english especially regarding names cuz i dont know them in english.

Here we are:

the Messiah, according to the nazaritics of arabia , (that mohammad called “Nasara”, is immortal, just as we see in John 12:34; therefore, the nazaritics’ doctrine was that Jesus-the messiah departed Jesus on the cross…in other words, it was Jesus who died but NOT as a messiah since the messiah doesnt die. One of these nazaritics, Basilis said : since the Messiah transforms willingly from image to another image, he put his resemblance on Semaan instead of him while being lifted alive to the one who sent him, mocking all those who plotted agaisnt him, because he was unseen to all".

It is as if we read this same doctrine in the quran:
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

1. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

The nazaritic doctrine has 2 versions of the story :
1- that Jesus gave his likeness to someone
2- Jesus the messiah, the Word of God,left Jesus before his death and Jesus the man died, not the Messiah in him.

So the “appeared to them” doctrine is a nazaritic heritage and thats what mohammad meant : it appeared to them that they killed The Messiah but they did not but allah took him to himself.

Conclusion, the crucifixion version of the quran is nothing but a heretical nazaritic doctrine that pre-dated mohammad and surely not from God but man-made.

 

[inJESUS]

Salaam George;
Among the tenets of the Christian religion, which ones are tied to the act of crucifixion?
Is tied to the crucifixion the Doctrine of trinity?
Is tied to the crucifixion the doctrine of original sin?
Is tied to crucifixion the belief that Jesus is the Son of God?
Is tied to the crucifixion the belief that Jesus is God?
Is tied to crucifixion the belief that Jesus was God incarnate?

The answer is NO to all the above questions about the central tenets of Christianity, so why do you state that "Allah deceived the people and then allowed those deceived to create the world’s largest religion

" simply, Jesus WAS killed…it is the trick that is not understood.

To my knowledge the only thing that is tied to crucifixion is the belief that Jesus died for the sins of mankind, but this is an innovation made by the people, this is what I see as the true deception

the doctrines started AFTER Jesus’ resurrection as a response to the resurrection fact…and Jesus himself, and the OT talk about it…what doctrine you choose is irrelevant to this thread…the fact is : Jesus WAS crucified.Some believe in original sin, others in original grace, ecc…all these are theological doctrines that stem from the fact that he died.

It was innovated to make it easy for the pagans’ gentiles to embrace the new religion.

how? it was Jews first who embraced it. And what does death have to do with convincing someone? Jesus being only the messiah is sublime enough, why should they pretend his death to prove anything?dont you think that if Jesus never died, no one except the “lying” disciples would have believed it? eyewitnesses would have rebuked them badly…but the fact that JEWS ( non-Christian jews) wrote about it is another proof…jews for 2000 years did not provide a single evidence that he was not killed…in fact they cant cuz manuscripts of jewish and pagans from first century onward that talk about his death are here.

Do you remember the verse: “His blood be on us and on our children”? This is what the Holy Spirit supposedly inspired one of the apostles to write, as a consequence millions of Jews were massacred, killed, persecuted by the Christians across the ages, and this is what started what is commonly known as anti-Semitism

what about “forgive them Father for they know not what they are doing” ?

. So God died on the cross to save human kind but in the same breath signed the death of millions of his chosen people?

no, it is human sinfulness.

To return the same remark to you, is this the act of a loving god?

but allah asking mohammad to kill non-muslims is an act of loving? what did Jesus talk about “ennemies”?

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam;

inJESUS:

…Joseph if not mistaken said that no one was killed that day, which i find absurd given the huge historical manuscripts about Jesus’ crucifixion…

Check your facts, I did not participate to that thread.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[inJESUS]

Joseph_Alison:

Salaam;

Check your facts, I did not participate to that thread.

Salaam.
Joseph.

sorry bro i just checked…you did participate in that thread.