Anencephalic Fetus/Right to Abort?

[Tonks40]

Hi everyone -

I hope I’m posting in the right forum. Today I found out from our supervisor at work that a co-worker of mine, who was in the 2nd trimester of her pregnancy, found out during a pre-natal visit this week that the child she was carrying was diagnosed with anencephaly - a defect in which the developing fetus develops without a brain. I understand it’s a form of spinal bifida. Anyways, her husband and her decide that because of the chances that her baby would either died in-utero, die at birth, or die soon after birth, they decided to have an abortion.

Though I feel terrible about the trial that her family is going through right now, I was wondering if this was reason enough for her to go ahead and abort the baby?? There was no danger to the mother (or really the child for that matter)…what are the Church teachings on this? Any resources you guys can site so I can look into this a little further???

Please pray for my co-worker, her family, and the child. I understand this was done today.

Thanks

 

[Batjacboy]

Try this.

 

[pira114]

If a fetus has no brain, it would not be alive and therefore could not really be aborted. If the baby were alive, it had to have at least basic brain function.

 

[m134e5]

An anacephalic baby is already dead. In development, something happened that was severe enough that the entire brain died (an anneurysm, a severe stroke, etc.). For whatever reason, the body did not, so there was no miscarriage, however, there is no brain- it cannot think, feel, move (other than involuntary movements, perhaps) sense (other than reflexes- maybe), perceive, eat, sleep, drink, dream, or anything like that.

I am very much against abortion, and birth control, but I am also against having someone go through the pains of childbirth knowing they will deliver a brain-dead baby whose body will die soon after birth if it isn’t dead already. What a trauma that would be! Anacephalic babies often don’t just come out looking with normal, but dead looking bodies- quite often, their heads are flat and faces are contorted because there is no skull- or only a partal skull (if the brain died before the skull was formed). It is horrifying. It is the kind of thing you do not sleep for a long time after seeing, and it haunts you for years to come. Childbirth (hormones, the pain of birth, etc.) is stressful enough as it is- when a baby dies it is much worse- when you see it’s head- how you distinguish him/her- and it looks like those babies’ heads look…I cannot imagine the stress. Seeing them in black and white pictures was bad enough.

They were right to have the abortion. Hopefully, it was done as soon as this condition is detected, but I say suffer the trauma of delivering the baby rather than willingly give a dime to planned parenthood. I do not understand carrying a brain-dead baby once you have found out about the condition- it was dead months ago.

 

[1ke]

Tonks40:

Though I feel terrible about the trial that her family is going through right now, I was wondering if this was reason enough for her to go ahead and abort the baby??

Why would you think there was ever “reason enough” to kill another innocent human being. No, there is no reason sufficient to justify killing a baby. All human persons have an inviolate right to life.

Tonks40:

There was no danger to the mother (or really the child for that matter)…what are the Church teachings on this?

That abortion is murder and always gravely immoral and wrong.

Tonks40:

Any resources you guys can site so I can look into this a little further???

You can visit www.omsoul.com or www.hh76.com for great literature regarding abortion.

Tonks40:

I understand this was done today.

Then you may want to get some materials from Heritage House on post abortion healing for your co-worker.

 

[1ke]

pira114:

If a fetus has no brain, it would not be alive and therefore could not really be aborted. If the baby were alive, it had to have at least basic brain function.

This is untrue and is an affront to all disabled persons. Humanity, and the inviolate right to life, is not in any way dependent on “brain function” or ability. The right to life is inherent in our dignity as human persons.

The child is alive, growing, and it is a gravely immoral act to kill it.

 

[1ke]

m134e5:

An anacephalic baby is already dead. In development, something happened that was severe enough that the entire brain died (an anneurysm, a severe stroke, etc.). For whatever reason, the body did not, so there was no miscarriage, however, there is no brain- it cannot think, feel, move (other than involuntary movements, perhaps) sense (other than reflexes- maybe), perceive, eat, sleep, drink, dream, or anything like that.

This is not true. Where are you people getting this idea that the Church teaches “brain dead” is the same as “dead” and that it is therefore OK to kill people who are still alive but have impaired brain function? It clearly does NOT.

m134e5:

I am very much against abortion, and birth control, but I am also against having someone go through the pains of childbirth knowing they will deliver a brain-dead baby whose body will die soon after birth if it isn’t dead already.

On what ground are you against abortion if you believe there are acceptable reasons for an abortion? This is situational ethics, explicitly rejected by the Catholic Church as incompatible with the faith. Abortion – the direct killing of a living human person-- is ALWAYS wrong, no matter the circumstances.

m134e5:

What a trauma that would be! Anacephalic babies often don’t just come out looking with normal, but dead looking bodies- quite often, their heads are flat and faces are contorted because there is no skull- or only a partal skull (if the brain died before the skull was formed). It is horrifying.

To you maybe. I encourage you to read of couples who have loved their child until he/she died, disfigurement and all. To state the things you do is to imply they are not human because they are not perfect.

m134e5:

It is the kind of thing you do not sleep for a long time after seeing, and it haunts you for years to come. Childbirth (hormones, the pain of birth, etc.) is stressful enough as it is- when a baby dies it is much worse- when you see it’s head- how you distinguish him/her- and it looks like those babies’ heads look…I cannot imagine the stress. Seeing them in black and white pictures was bad enough.

And killing your baby is less stressful and less likely to haunt you?

m134e5:

They were right to have the abortion.

Abortion is always wrong.

m134e5:

Hopefully, it was done as soon as this condition is detected, but I say suffer the trauma of delivering the baby rather than willingly give a dime to planned parenthood.

HUH?

m134e5:

I do not understand carrying a brain-dead baby once you have found out about the condition- it was dead months ago.

The child is alive and it is wrong to kill it. That is quite simply to understand. God calls us to love all persons, disabled or not.

 

[JimG]

It is a sad situation; but I am opposed to pre-emptive strikes against the disabled.

 

[Tonks40]

Thanks for all your replies. Instinctively, I had a feeling that abortion in this situation was not the right thing to do, though I do acknowledge the extreme difficulty that it would entail. 1ke and Batjaboy, your responses were the most helpful.

I sent out my condolences to her yesterday. This is such a delicate matter, especially in the workplace. In case she approaches me with any difficulties with this, I’m prepared to help her out with post-abortion resources.

 

[Rosalinda]

This is an essay by a Catholic obstetric geneticist, Dr. Paddy Baggot, which is an alternative viewpoint rarely heard today. The babies in question had severe anomalies.

michaelfund.org/mod/fileman/files/Essay2.pdf

 

[Rosalinda]

Originally stated by M134e5

Anacephalic babies often don’t just come out looking with normal, but dead looking bodies- quite often, their heads are flat and faces are contorted because there is no skull- or only a partal skull (if the brain died before the skull was formed). It is horrifying.

Your description is probably why most mothers feel they have no choice but to abort. While it most certainly is a serious thing to be missing the top of one’s skull the baby will not necessarily look like a “horrifying” monster. I have seen photos of these babies too and with a little cap on the head they can look quite normal. What you saw were undoubtedly the worse cases. Mothers who have delivered their babies with this condition and who have received proper counseling are prepared to focus on all the parts of the baby which are perfectly formed; they have a few hours to spend with their newborns, to hold, cuddle, kiss and to love them. No matter what the malformation, no child deserves to be subjected to the cruelty of partial birth abortion. Furthermore, it is traumatizing for the mother and only compounds the tragedy and her guilt and grief.

The first born son of my parents died within a few hours after a premature birth at seven months. When I read the experiences of the courageous mothers who bravely refused to abort their babies I realized, for the first time, how healing it would have been to my mother if she had seen her son and been permitted to hold him. It’s more than fifty years but she still remembers with sadness each September 7 Michael’s birthday. What an amazing gift when a doctor can carefully deliver such a child through a c-section and allow everyone to shower the new arrival with a burst of love however brief.

 

[m134e5]

1ke:

This is untrue and is an affront to all disabled persons. Humanity, and the inviolate right to life, is not in any way dependent on “brain function” or ability. The right to life is inherent in our dignity as human persons.

The child is alive, growing, and it is a gravely immoral act to kill it.

The brain is dead. The body **WILL **die shortly after birth if it does not die in the birth canal.

 

[m134e5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by m134e5

An anacephalic baby is already dead. In development, something happened that was severe enough that the entire brain died (an anneurysm, a severe stroke, etc.). For whatever reason, the body did not, so there was no miscarriage, however, there is no brain- it cannot think, feel, move (other than involuntary movements, perhaps) sense (other than reflexes- maybe), perceive, eat, sleep, drink, dream, or anything like that.**

This is not true. Where are you people getting this idea that the Church teaches “brain dead” is the same as “dead” and that it is therefore OK to kill people who are still alive but have impaired brain function? It clearly does NOT.

Impaired brain function? Anacephalic babies have NO brain function! Their brain is dead (it’s not even there anymore), and it probably died months ago. This is different than a persistant vegitative state. Their body will die within minutes of being born, if it doesn’t die in the birth canal. Chances are, their soul is already in heaven, and was long ago.

The child is alive and it is wrong to kill it. That is quite simply to understand. God calls us to love all persons, disabled or not.

If a woman has a miscarriage, but it doesn’t all come out (sorry if this is graphic), the doctor does a D&C to remove it. It’s almost the same thing- the baby has died, but it’s still in there. Its body, except the brain of course- it’s dead- is still getting nourishment from the mother, so it’s being there isn’t going to cause the mother to go into toxic shock, but the baby is dead. I guess the question to answer is when does the soul leave the body? When the brain dies, or when the body dies? The brain controls the “human-ness” of the person, the body consists only of reflexes and natural cellular processes. It would make sense to me that the soul leaves the body when the brain dies.

“Your description is probably why most mothers feel they have no choice but to abort. While it most certainly is a serious thing to be missing the top of one’s skull the baby will not necessarily look like a “horrifying” monster. I have seen photos of these babies too and with a little cap on the head they can look quite normal. What you saw were undoubtedly the worse cases.”

I understand that- the pictures I saw were from a medical textbook. The babies’ heads looked like deflated balloons. I would not want to see that as a parent- I couldn’t stand it. A partial-birth abortion would never be the answer- they should have made the decision before then. You can detect anacephaly earlier than right before the baby is about to be born. I don’t support the saline or suction abortions for this case either- mainly because they support the abortion industry that kills babies that could be born healthy- it may just amount to delivering the baby by c-section soon after the diagnosis- when the mother is under anesthesia, and never has to see the body.

It is a sad situation; but I am opposed to pre-emptive strikes against the disabled.

They aren’t just disabled- they are truly brain-dead. They have no brain at all. Their body is alive ONLY because they are attached to the mother. I bet their souls were in heaven weeks ago.

 

[Rosalinda]

M134e5,

I found this story for you to read about an anencephalic baby that survived 43 hours after delivery via c-section. There are photographs of little Lee which may help you; it may be the photos you saw were of a baby after a vaginal delivery and the birth trauma may have disfigured him even further as the protective casing of bone was missing. In the story this family shares, the parents did initially flinch and groan when they viewed the mangled top of their son’s head but they still loved him. The father spent an entire night holding his infant son; no he wasn’t repulsed.

As for your comment about these babies being dead already and their soul already in heaven it is my understanding the soul gives life to the body. Without the animating principle of the soul the body dies. That the soul resides solely in the brain is speculation. You would do well to pose the question in another forum but my guess is no one has yet p(name removed by moderator)ointed it; it remains a mystery. We really don’t know how quickly the soul leaves the body after death.

Anyway, please do take the time to read the article because it will challenge you to see these children and their families in a new perspective. Try to imagine what a gift it was for the father to hold his son for an entire night. Which one of us wouldn’t want to be held and loved in our final hours when injury, disease or age has deprived us of our initial, flawless beauty? Didn’t the mother of Jesus hold him in her arms after He died such a cruel, disfiguring death? This family faced their fears with courage and God gave them the strength they needed to suffer this tragedy. Hopefully, others will be inspired and encouraged by their example to continue their pregnancy however grim the prognosis.

latimes.com/la-na-hospice28jan28,0,1197650.story?page=1

 

[masondoggy]

m134e5:

The brain is dead. The body **WILL **die shortly after birth if it does not die in the birth canal.

If the brain is dead, then the body cannot grow. The heart cannot beat. That’s simple Human Physiology.

Just because a baby will die during or soon after birth, does not give us a moral excuse to kill it.

 

[Jocelyn]

Rosalinda:

M134e5,

I found this story for you to read about an anencephalic baby that survived 43 hours after delivery via c-section. There are photographs of little Lee which may help you; it may be the photos you saw were of a baby after a vaginal delivery and the birth trauma may have disfigured him even further as the protective casing of bone was missing. In the story this family shares, the parents did initially flinch and groan when they viewed the mangled top of their son’s head but they still loved him. The father spent an entire night holding his infant son; no he wasn’t repulsed.

As for your comment about these babies being dead already and their soul already in heaven it is my understanding the soul gives life to the body. Without the animating principle of the soul the body dies. That the soul resides solely in the brain is speculation. You would do well to pose the question in another forum but my guess is no one has yet p(name removed by moderator)ointed it; it remains a mystery. We really don’t know how quickly the soul leaves the body after death.

Anyway, please do take the time to read the article because it will challenge you to see these children and their families in a new perspective. Try to imagine what a gift it was for the father to hold his son for an entire night. Which one of us wouldn’t want to be held and loved in our final hours when injury, disease or age has deprived us of our initial, flawless beauty? Didn’t the mother of Jesus hold him in her arms after He died such a cruel, disfiguring death? This family faced their fears with courage and God gave them the strength they needed to suffer this tragedy. Hopefully, others will be inspired and encouraged by their example to continue their pregnancy however grim the prognosis.

latimes.com/la-na-hospice28jan28,0,1197650.story?page=1

What a story! I cried the whole way through.

No, I wouldn’t abort. I would do exactly what the mother in this story did.

Of course, I would have a priest right there after my c-section to baptize the baby.

 

[juno24]

Another beautiful, touching story of a mother with an anencephalic baby. This mother knew what to expect, and yet still never considered her daughter to be some kind of monster. The faith of this family is exceptionally moving. God certainly blessed them with the grace to accept their daughter’s condition and prognosis, and to love her just as she was.

 

[Rosalinda]

Originally posted by M134e5

If a woman has a miscarriage, but it doesn’t all come out (sorry if this is graphic), the doctor does a D&C to remove it.

It isn’t as simple as a D&C. I offer the testimony of Dr. William Knorr a witness for the Center for Reproductive Rights in a trail proceeding against The Department of Justice of U.S. in 2004. This abortionist does 5,000 to 6,000 abortions a year. He will take women up to 24 weeks of gestation and uses a technique called dilation and extraction, D&E. Doctors routinely send him referrals for babies with Down Syndrome, cleft palates, hydrocephalus, and anenceophalic to enumerate a few from as far as Canada.

Anyone who thinks this is a compassionate solution and a better alternative than the case of baby Lee, cited above, should read the full transcript to appreciate just how cold and heartless he is. Here is one example. When asked if he routinely did digoxin injections, mandatory in some states to alleviate “unnecessary suffering” of the baby during the abortion procedure, he answered: I don’t believe in it. I think that it’s an extra procedure and, you know, we first have to remember 'don’t do any harm." lines 18-20, pg. 100

Q. You’ve also performed abortions for anencephalic

6 fetuses?

7 A. Yes, quite a number.

8 Q. What’s an anencephalic fetus?

9 A. An anencephalic fetus is a neurotube defect in the head

10 associated with a lack of the posterior cranium and lack of

11 fetal brain, and it’s a very commonly associated with

12 uncontrolled diabetes.

13 Q. So you would agree with those fetuses that the head

14 would actually be the smallest part of the fetus?

15 A. I don’t believe that I would agree with fetuses, but

16 the head is the small part of the fetus.

17 Q. So usually the head doesn’t get stuck at the cervix when

18 you’re performing an abortion on an anencephalic fetus?

19 A. Usually not.

priestsforlife.org/pba/neday3.pdf

 

[Eileen_T]

I can relate two cases that I experienced. The first was my mother and her last baby, my brother. He was stillborn but the midwife told Mum she had felt him moving during the labour. He was baptised immediately after birth.

The second case was a woman I shared an office with at one stage. At 26 weeks, her daughter was told there was a problem with the baby’s head. It was diagnosed as anencephalic. In all, this girl was examined by specialists three separate times and each consultation had the diagnosis confirmed.

She was given the worst-case-scenarios for her baby but with a strong pro-life Catholic mother to support her she held on strong. At 38 weeks she was induced because, with no brain the baby could not start labour. Her beautiful baby daughter has a slightly smaller head, but within the range of normality.

The baby’s neurological tests were all normal and she has absolutely nothing wrong with her.

Working at a crisis pregnancy centre, we came across this several times. One young woman who came to us for emotional support was told her baby had fluid on the brain, a valve missing in the heart and an exploded bowel. When she finally gave birth the baby needed one fairly routine operation to correct a problem with the heart and NOTHING ELSE.

Neither woman received an apology from the doctors for the mental hell they had been put through.

Carrying the pregnancy to term and giving birth allows a couple to come to terms with the fact that their baby is unlikely to survive. Their grieving is easier than most of the women who chose to abort. I know because I have counselled/spoken to women who chose both options.

 

[Eileen_T]

Another thread has given this information:

“Brain-dead” boy recovers with video game therapy

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060317…mn_pluggedin_dc

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Doctors pronounced Ethan Myers brain dead after a car accident dealt the 9-year-old a severe brain injury in 2002. After he miraculously awoke from a nearly month-long coma, doctors declared he would never again eat on his own, walk or talk.

Yet, thanks partly to a video game system, Myers has caught up with his peers in school and even read a speech to a large group of students.

Just goes to show that brain dead is not always really dead. Like the line in the movie The Princess Bride where the hero is pronounced as being just mostly dead.