Apostasy and the Catholic position.

[Irishmen10]

I know that Apostasy has been prophesied all throughout the Bible in many forms. Whether it’s spiritual apostasy or physical, individual, or collective. I’ve been reading the old testament and came across a scripture that caught my attention. It is found in Amos 8:11-12 it states; 11’The days are coming- declares the Lord Yahweh- when I shall send a famine on the country, not hunger for food, not thirst for water, but famine for hearing Yahweh’s word.
12 People will stagger from sea to sea, will wander from the north to the east, searching for Yahweh’s word, but will not find it. (NJV).
Now, my question is when is this famine supposed to happen? Has it already occurred? And what is the Church’s standpoint on Apostasy, being related to widespread?

 

[ManOnFire]

When people wake up to see that the worship of lust and drugs that are being promoted by the popular media are not fulfilling, then we can choose to cast aside the Culture to LIVE through deeds the Church’s message of romantic, true love between man and woman, the kind that is strong enough to allow us to sacrifice to protect the family and not be deceived by the false worship of the Culture’s shallow amusements.

 

[CopticChristian]

I know that Apostasy has been prophesied all throughout the Bible in many forms. Whether it’s spiritual apostasy or physical, individual, or collective. I’ve been reading the old testament and came across a scripture that caught my attention. It is found in Amos 8:11-12 it states; 11’The days are coming- declares the Lord Yahweh- when I shall send a famine on the country, not hunger for food, not thirst for water, but famine for hearing Yahweh’s word.
12 People will stagger from sea to sea, will wander from the north to the east, searching for Yahweh’s word, but will not find it. (NJV).
Now, my question is when is this famine supposed to happen? Has it already occurred? And what is the Church’s standpoint on Apostasy, being related to widespread?

Just so we are on the same page here. Apostasy. The question is what is your understanding of Apostasy. This needs to be answered to be able to discuss anything. So, put it out there. This is your post. I want your definition and understanding of Apostasy. Protestants tend to talk about “the great apostasy” as their reason for existence.

The passages you quote do not mention Apostasy. You have linked them to your notion of Apostasy and only you know why.

Here is what Calvin says;

He at last concludes, that all the remnants of Palestine
would be destroyed. Now, whenever God denounces destruction on the
Jews, he ever gives some hope, and says that the remnant would be
saved: but here the Prophet declares that whatever remained of that
nation would be destroyed; for God purposed to destroy them
altogether, and also their very name.

This Amos must be directed towards the Jew and happened after 70 AD

Apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith. Heresy is the obstinate doubt or denial, after baptism, of a defined Catholic doctrine. Schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or the refusal to be in communion with members of the Church who are in communion with him (CIC 751).

catholic.com/library/Great_Heresies.asp

Apostasy is individual, can be grouped and can be corporate. Your linking this Old Testament passage to Apostasy cannot be explained without your notion of Apostasy.

The One Holy Catholic Church would say that the Oriental Church Schismed, The Eastern Orthodox Schismed and that Prtoestanism was a heresy since it was not one body but several that included Knox, Calvin, Luther, Anglicans and others.

So in order to honestly and credibly answer your question I need to know what you mean by Apostasy and your definition. This is the Catholic understanding. I need yours to continue.

You need to define your terms.

 

[PJM]

=Irishmen10;8218425]I know that Apostasy has been prophesied all throughout the Bible in many forms. Whether it’s spiritual apostasy or physical, individual, or collective. I’ve been reading the old testament and came across a scripture that caught my attention. It is found in Amos 8:11-12 it states; 11’The days are coming- declares the Lord Yahweh- when I shall send a famine on the country, not hunger for food, not thirst for water, but famine for hearing Yahweh’s word.
12 People will stagger from sea to sea, will wander from the north to the east, searching for Yahweh’s word, but will not find it. (NJV).
Now, my question is when is this famine supposed to happen? Has it already occurred? And what is the Church’s standpoint on Apostasy, being related to widespread?

It began and continues with the Protestant revolution. No where in the bible can it be found that Yahweh or Christ ever permitted [much less condoned] varying [personal understanding] of wht God taught and EXPECTS ALL to adhere too.

The ONLY set of Keys [access to heaven] were given by Jesus to Peter and His One God, One Faith, One Church], todays CC.

**Exod.3: 6, 14-15 ** “And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.'" God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations”

**Eph. 4: 1-7 **“I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs[/COLOR]] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

**Eph. 2: 18-22 **“ for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, ***but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [SINGULAR} built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerst[/COLOR]***one, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord;

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

**John 17:18-24 "**As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, …

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Irishmen10]

Just so we are on the same page here. Apostasy. The question is what is your understanding of Apostasy. This needs to be answered to be able to discuss anything. So, put it out there. This is your post. I want your definition and understanding of Apostasy. Protestants tend to talk about “the great apostasy” as their reason for existence.

The passages you quote do not mention Apostasy. You have linked them to your notion of Apostasy and only you know why.

This Amos must be directed towards the Jew and happened after 70 AD

Apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith. Heresy is the obstinate doubt or denial, after baptism, of a defined Catholic doctrine. Schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or the refusal to be in communion with members of the Church who are in communion with him (CIC 751).

catholic.com/library/Great_Heresies.asp

Apostasy is individual, can be grouped and can be corporate. Your linking this Old Testament passage to Apostasy cannot be explained without your notion of Apostasy.

The One Holy Catholic Church would say that the Oriental Church Schismed, The Eastern Orthodox Schismed and that Prtoestanism was a heresy since it was not one body but several that included Knox, Calvin, Luther, Anglicans and others.

So in order to honestly and credibly answer your question I need to know what you mean by Apostasy and your definition. This is the Catholic understanding. I need yours to continue.

You need to define your terms.

My definition of Apostasy is when a person turns away from God. So in the scripture I cited it states that there will be a famine of the Lords words. In order for there to be a famine, there already has to be something there. So to me, it says that we once had Gods word and then there was or is or will be a famine of it for a period of time. Because people have turned away from God. But you did mention the Great Apostasy…which is interesting to me. I’ve been raised to believe that the authority that Christ gave to Peter ceased when Peter and the apostles died (obviously I was not taught to believe in the Pope). So I’ve been raised to believe that this famine is during that time where Christ authority is no longer on the earth (for a period of time). This is what I’ve been raised to believe, hope this makes sense…my brain has a million things going on XD

 

[Telstar]

My definition of Apostasy is when a person turns away from God. So in the scripture I cited it states that there will be a famine of the Lords words. In order for there to be a famine, there already has to be something there. So to me, it says that we once had Gods word and then there was or is or will be a famine of it for a period of time. Because people have turned away from God. But you did mention the Great Apostasy…which is interesting to me. I’ve been raised to believe that the authority that Christ gave to Peter ceased when Peter and the apostles died (obviously I was not taught to believe in the Pope). So I’ve been raised to believe that this famine is during that time where Christ authority is no longer on the earth (for a period of time). This is what I’ve been raised to believe, hope this makes sense…my brain has a million things going on XD

I think that’s the correct definition of the word, but being LDS, you’ve been taught that the interpretation of how it’s applied comes from Joseph Smith’s erroneous assumption that it happened just after the last Apostle died. I tend to see it as happening on a large scale at the ‘reformation’ that had such a devastating effect on all of Christianity. It not only splintered it, but shattered a huge portion of it into so many small fragments that could not even agree on the doctrines that they wished to eliminate from their version of Christianity. Each of those fragments have been continuously shattered into ever smaller shards, in the time since then, almost to the point of there only being a very fine powder of doctrine remaining of the original in many of them.

Amos 8:[11] Behold the days come, saith the Lord, and I will send forth a famine into the land: not a famine of bread, nor a thirst of water, but of hearing the word of the Lord. [12] And they shall move from sea to sea, and from the north to the east: they shall go about seeking the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

IMHO, this passage describes the people of God in these days, because of the further fracturing of the Christian faith since the ‘reformation’. The word ‘sea’ is used many times in Scripture as a representation of a group of the people of God. As seen here, individual souls are moving from ‘sea to sea’ (from one church congregation to another), in all directions, looking for the truth, but not finding it. Those who have separated themselves from the Church, or that have been brought up within those separations, are often so confused by so many different choices being available (that all claim to be the right one), that they are unable to figure out the real truth. In the meantime, their souls are starving for the truth, and the true ‘spiritual food’ (the Holy Eucharist), that is only available in the original Catholic Church.

The devil seems to have done a pretty good job in clouding so many eyes from the real truth.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think that’s the correct definition of the word, but being LDS, you’ve been taught that the interpretation of how it’s applied comes from Joseph Smith’s erroneous assumption that it happened just after the last Apostle died. I tend to see it as happening on a large scale at the ‘reformation’ that had such a devastating effect on all of Christianity. It not only splintered it, but shattered a huge portion of it into so many small fragments that could not even agree on the doctrines that they wished to eliminate from their version of Christianity. Each of those fragments have been continuously shattered into ever smaller shards, in the time since then, almost to the point of there only being a very fine powder of doctrine remaining of the original in many of them.
IMHO, this passage describes the people of God in these days, because of the further fracturing of the Christian faith since the ‘reformation’. The word ‘sea’ is used many times in Scripture as a representation of a group of the people of God. As seen here, individual souls are moving from ‘sea to sea’ (from one church congregation to another), in all directions, looking for the truth, but not finding it. Those who have separated themselves from the Church, or that have been brought up within those separations, are often so confused by so many different choices being available (that all claim to be the right one), that they are unable to figure out the real truth. In the meantime, their souls are starving for the truth, and the true ‘spiritual food’ (the Holy Eucharist), that is only available in the original Catholic Church.

The devil seems to have done a pretty good job in clouding so many eyes from the real truth.

Your interpretation is not literal and is being applied to an interpretation that begs the question. The notion that there has been an apostasy and then applying this verse to it is like having a belief, finding a passage that fits and using it to explain the passage. This is the problem with Protestant thought.

The Old testament is a story of a people, the Old Covenant, the promise of God with its people. The New Testament is a story of a people, the New Covenant, that is explained by the Old Covenant by looking at the Old Covenant through the eyes of Christ.

If you wish to know about the Pope, read Jesus, Peter and the Keys, Scott Butler, and others.

If you wish to study the Old Testament don’t pluck out verses and try to interpret them as someone else tells you. The letter to Romans by Paul quotes Genesis the story of Abraham, Psalms, Isiah and Deuterononmy more than any other texts. He doesn’t just throw stuff out like this Amos verse. He is methodical in his choice and explanation.

THe Coming Home show, on EWTN has some stuff on LDS. I found this one. Look it over
there must be more. I will keep looking for you.

chnetwork.org/

 

[Telstar]

Your interpretation is not literal and is being applied to an interpretation that begs the question. The notion that there has been an apostasy and then applying this verse to it is like having a belief, finding a passage that fits and using it to explain the passage. This is the problem with Protestant thought.

The Old testament is a story of a people, the Old Covenant, the promise of God with its people. The New Testament is a story of a people, the New Covenant, that is explained by the Old Covenant by looking at the Old Covenant through the eyes of Christ.

If you wish to know about the Pope, read Jesus, Peter and the Keys, Scott Butler, and others.

If you wish to study the Old Testament don’t pluck out verses and try to interpret them as someone else tells you. The letter to Romans by Paul quotes Genesis the story of Abraham, Psalms, Isiah and Deuterononmy more than any other texts. He doesn’t just throw stuff out like this Amos verse. He is methodical in his choice and explanation.

THe Coming Home show, on EWTN has some stuff on LDS. I found this one. Look it over
there must be more. I will keep looking for you.

chnetwork.org/

I didn’t say, or mean to imply, that my interpretation was 100% correct. That’s why I prefaced it with IMHO (In My Humble Opinion). It just struck me after I read that small passage (in the DRV), that it might be interpreted in that way. Unfortunately, I didn’t read the entire chapter, so I ended up taking the passage out of the full context of the chapter, also. Obviously it refers to Israel, but it’s still possible that there *could *be more than one interpretation. All prophecies can have multiple meanings, and it certainly does seem to fit the situation today, as well as Israel’s. Again, in my own opinion.

I apologize if I gave the impression that this was in any way an ‘official’ interpretation. Maybe you’re right and I shouldn’t have stated my personal opinion, at all.

 

[CopticChristian]

I didn’t say, or mean to imply, that my interpretation was 100% correct. That’s why I prefaced it with IMHO (In My Humble Opinion). It just struck me after I read that small passage (in the DRV), that it might be interpreted in that way. Unfortunately, I didn’t read the entire chapter, so I ended up taking the passage out of the full context of the chapter, also. Obviously it refers to Israel, but it’s still possible that there *could *be more than one interpretation. All prophecies can have multiple meanings, and it certainly does seem to fit the situation today, as well as Israel’s. Again, in my own opinion.

I apologize if I gave the impression that this was in any way an ‘official’ interpretation. Maybe you’re right and I shouldn’t have stated my personal opinion, at all.

Your losing me with your IMHO, DRV, OMG, BFF, NFL, AFC, WFL, and all the rest…say what you mean for pete’s sake. I don’t understand all the abbreviations.

It sounds to me like what you might do is understand that there is more than one interpreation to scripture study. There is the historical, literal, allegorical and to be honest I cannot recall the other. There are many ways to interpret scripture. What you may want to look into is the various ways that the bible can be looked at called “exegesis”.

Recall you are reading a translation that is written for your understanding. I was listening to the Catholic Radio and heard that in Hebrew God is described as having a long nose or short nose and as I recall that was translated as slow to anger and quick to anger. There are many things that just do not translate when considering language to language translation.

Imagine translating “roll out the red carpet” in many different languages to get the same sense of the original meaning. This is the problem that Scripture presents in translation. Remmember you are reading a translation.

 

[PJM]

=Irishmen10;8225272]My definition of Apostasy is when a person turns away from God. So in the scripture I cited it states that there will be a famine of the Lords words. In order for there to be a famine, there already has to be something there. So to me, it says that we once had Gods word and then there was or is or will be a famine of it for a period of time. Because people have turned away from God. But you did mention the Great Apostasy…which is interesting to me. I’ve been raised to believe that the authority that Christ gave to Peter ceased when Peter and the apostles died (obviously I was not taught to believe in the Pope). So I’ve been raised to believe that this famine is during that time where Christ authority is no longer on the earth (for a period of time). This is what I’ve been raised to believe, hope this makes sense…my brain has a million things going on XD

From one Irishman to another; you’ve been misinformed.

Take just these few verses and pray about them, and then aply some common sense logic.

Matt.16: 18 to 19 “And I [Jesus] tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, *and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. *** I will [Now PAST TENSE] give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Then there is this COMMAND from Jesus to the Apostles:

Matt.28: 18 to 20" And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. *** Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, ***baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

IMPOSSIBLE for this to be accomplished in the [shortened] life spans of the Apostles; expecially in view of the severe persecution thy experienced.

Then This:

John.20: 19 to 23 " On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, [The First Pentocost Sunday] the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” ** [Meaning with My Powers as God and My Authority as God] … And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. [23] ***If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” ***

Then as affirmation and as warranty for the Teaching TRUTHS of the CC, e have this evidence.

[Jesus speaking to Peter an the Apostles; NOT past tense] John.14:16 to 17 " And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you"

John.17:15 to 19 AGAIN JESUS SPEAKING "I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, **but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. ** They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. ** As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. **[19] [With My God authority and Powers] ***And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. ***

Consider this: Nowhere in the entire Bible; first to last page can anyone find support for mote than just One God [triune], more than One Faith [set of required beliefs] or more than one Faith organization ot “body.”… Yet in the NT ALONE I can show you over 100 proofs of JUST One God, Just One Faith and Just one Church.

The Bible was not completely written until the end of the first Century. All the Apostles were dead. So where did the Bible come from? And how did it become OFFICIALLY the Bible in 425 at a Catholic Church Council?

Here is a list of the First 2 Popes. It’s Long because many were KILLED for their Catholic Faith. 1) St. Peter (33-67) 2) St. Linus (67-76) 3) St. Cletus (76-88) 4) St. Clement 1 (88-97) 5) St. Evaristus (97-105) 6) St. Alexander I (105-1l5) 7) St. Sixtus I (1l5-125) 8) St. Telesphorus (125-136) 9) St. Hyginus (136-140) 10) St. Pius I (140-155) 11) St. Anicetus (155-166) 12) St. Soter (166-175) 13) St. Eleutherius (175-189) 14) St. Victor I (189-199)
15) St. Zephyrinus (199-217) 16) St. Callistus (217-222) 17) St. Urban I (222-230)
18) St. Pontian (230-235) 19) St. Anterus (235-236) 20) St. Fabian (236-250) I can supply this list for all Popes right up to Benedict XVI, now serving us.

Limited space does not permit more, but if you want additional evidence or just want to discus things, send me a PM.

God Bles,
Pat

 

[Telstar]

Your losing me with your IMHO, DRV, OMG, BFF, NFL, AFC, WFL, and all the rest…say what you mean for pete’s sake. I don’t understand all the abbreviations.

It sounds to me like what you might do is understand that there is more than one interpreation to scripture study. There is the historical, literal, allegorical and to be honest I cannot recall the other. There are many ways to interpret scripture. What you may want to look into is the various ways that the bible can be looked at called “exegesis”.

Recall you are reading a translation that is written for your understanding. I was listening to the Catholic Radio and heard that in Hebrew God is described as having a long nose or short nose and as I recall that was translated as slow to anger and quick to anger. There are many things that just do not translate when considering language to language translation.

Imagine translating “roll out the red carpet” in many different languages to get the same sense of the original meaning. This is the problem that Scripture presents in translation. Remmember you are reading a translation.

Sorry about the abbreviations. DRV = Douay Rheims Version of the Bible. (I tend to be a bit persnickety about not using modern Bible translations, so I like to use the one that’s been around a while. I believe it was a truly inspired translation.)

I’m certainly not a Biblical scholar by any means, but I completely understand how so many people can be fooled by trusting in their own interpretations. That’s how we get ourselves into hot water (this is a perfect example). It’s much better to leave the interpretation to those who are better equipped, theologically, to understand it’s true meaning.