Apparitions - Deceptions of Satan?

[Eden]

I am starting this thread to discuss the accusations by some Protestants that Marian apparitions are a deception of satan.

Here is a quote from Alfie from a discussion on another thread.

Alfie:

You are taking glory and honor away from Jesus by paying adoration to Mary. If that isn’t deception than I don’t know what is. For any Protestant convert on this forum this should be a wake up call. Apparations are a tool of Satan. This is how Satan is going to use them to unite all of the religions of the world under one roof. There have been reports of Marian appariations in the Islamic countries. This will bring the Moslems into the Catholic church because they also have a respect for Mary. Don’t kid yourself…you are deceived.

This thread is to discuss the idea that satan disguises himself as Mary to… lead people to Christ? The accusation is that we are deceived. Comments?

 

[Eileen_T]

I can across this link on another Forum today catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/mary/apparitions-truefalse.htm

Father Peter Joseph on Apparitions and what the devil can and cannot do. The devil may disguise himself as a good spirit and even cause what appears to be authentic mystical phenomena.

 

[NotWorthy]

Eileen, good article. But what I’ve come across on other boards is:
Our Lady of Guadalupe? Satan
Lourdes? Satan
Fatima? Definately Satan

Notworthy

 

[Eden]

Thank you for that distinction Eileen. It is important to distinguish between approved revelation and just “private revelation”.

In the interest of accuracy, the focus should be on approved apparitions. On the thread from which this one derives, I specifically gave a quote from the Blessed Virgin at Fatima which generated the response that I have been deceived.

So, the discussion will be narrowed to apparitions approved by the Church, a list of which can be found here:

www.fisheaters.com/apparitions.html

%between%

 

[Fidelis]

Well, to parse your friend’s rather long on emotion/short on facts outburst:

You are taking glory and honor away from Jesus by paying adoration to Mary.

Since when is giving honor to anyone taking it away from someone else? Is Jesus that petty and insecure that he can’t stand any attention being paid to his own Mother? What about the 4th Commandment? Would Jesus begrudge honor being paid to his Mother by his spiritual brothers and sisters?

If that isn’t deception than I don’t know what is.

Since there is no deception (how is giving honor, deception?)going on, I guess you don’t

For any Protestant convert on this forum this should be a wake up call. Apparations are a tool of Satan. This is how Satan is going to use them to unite all of the religions of the world under one roof.

And the proof of this is…?

There have been reports of Marian appariations in the Islamic countries. This will bring the Moslems into the Catholic church because they also have a respect for Mary.

Sounds good to me.

Don’t kid yourself…you are deceived.

Again, your saying so doesn’t make it so.

Howzat?

 

[mumof5]

Eden:

I am starting this thread to discuss the accusations by some Protestants that Marian apparitions are a deception of satan.

Here is a quote from Alfie from a discussion on another thread.

This thread is to discuss the idea that satan disguises himself as Mary to… lead people to Christ? The accusation is that we are deceived. Comments?

Amen! The devil presents himself as an angel of light, so we are told. We need to be very diligent about any experience that appears to come from ‘the other side’. The messengers of God are angels, and they are very curt and to the point, they do their job and then they go. They do not accept prayer. Jesus made it clear we are to pray to the Father and that is the example he gave.

 

[LilyM]

That’s why the Church never mandates belief in Marian or any other apparitions. It investigates them in accordance with Paul’s command to ‘test spirits to see if they are of God’.

It CAN say with certainty that some don’t come from God. It can say of others (like I believe is the case with Medjugorje) that they are unsure. But it never requires the faithful, for example, to believe that Mary appeared at Lourdes or Fatima or anywhere else.

 

[Fidelis]

mumof5:

Amen! The devil presents himself as an angel of light, so we are told.

It is true that Satan can, but that does not preclude there being apparitions sent from God. The Transfiguration (Moses and Elijah) and the appearances of angels in the Bible are proof of this.

The messengers of God are angels, and they are very curt and to the point, they do their job and then they go. They do not accept prayer.

As we see, for example, in Luke chapter 1, angels do not hesitate to engage in conversation. That is all that prayer really is-- conversation. I understand that many Protestants equate prayer with worship, but that is because, without the Mass, prayer is the highest “worship” that they can concieve of.

Jesus made it clear we are to pray to the Father and that is the example he gave.

But Jesus never said we could only to pray to God alone, and he never forbade prayer to the saints. He simply did not directly address the issue, so you have to look at the whole of revelation.

Perhaps this article will be helpful:

Praying to the Saints
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

 

[mumof5]

Fidelis:

It is true that Satan can, but that does not preclude there being apparitions sent from God. The Transfiguration (Moses and Elijah) and the appearances of angels in the Bible are proof of this. As we see, for example, in Luke chapter 1, angels do not hesitate to engage in conversation. That is all that prayer really is-- conversation. I understand that many Protestants equate prayer with worship, but that is because, without the Mass, prayer is the highest “worship” that they can concieve of. But Jesus never said we could only to pray to God alone, and he never forbade prayer to the saints. He simply did not directly address the issue, so you have to look at the whole of revelation.

So if it wasn’t mentioned, it’s ok? Ok…Jesus never forbid birth control either. No references to abortion … I guess that must be ok then.

Angels do not engage in conversation. Even the example in Luke 1 is very succinct and to the point. Couldn’t call that a conversation.

 

[LilyM]

mumof5:

So if it wasn’t mentioned, it’s ok? Ok…Jesus never forbid birth control either. No references to abortion … I guess that must be ok then.

A fair few protestant denominations DO say birth control is fine - abortion too in certain situations, not to mention divorce which is EXPLICITLY prohibited

Angels do not engage in conversation. Even the example in Luke 1 is very succinct and to the point. Couldn’t call that a conversation.

‘Hail full of grace the Lord is with thee blessed art thou among women’ - before he gets to the point? And then there is at least some exchange - Mary questions him. Sounds reasonably wordy.

And read the OT and Revelations - some pretty lengthy verbiage from the angels in some of those passages. Raphael disguised himself as a human and was a travelling companion for Tobit - you think they never spoke?

 

[Eden]

mumof5:

So if it wasn’t mentioned, it’s ok? Ok…Jesus never forbid birth control either.

Rev. 9:21; 21:8; 22:15; Gal. 5:20 - these verses mention the word “sorcery.” The Greek word is “pharmakeia” which includes abortifacient potions such as birth control pills. These pharmakeia are mortally sinful. Moreover, chemical contraception does not necessarily prevent conception, but may actually kill the child in the womb after conception has occurred (by preventing the baby from attaching to the uterine wall).

www.scripturecatholic.com

No references to abortion … I guess that must be ok then.

“Thou shalt not kill” clearly includes abortion.

 

[NotWorthy]

mumof5:

So if it wasn’t mentioned, it’s ok? Ok…Jesus never forbid birth control either. No references to abortion … I guess that must be ok then.

Angels do not engage in conversation. Even the example in Luke 1 is very succinct and to the point. Couldn’t call that a conversation.

Wow, where did that come from. God’s first commandment to Adam? “Be fruitful and multiply”. Not, “Have at it and get rid of any mistakes”.

There are numerous other visits by angels, and some of these did involve conversations.

Notworthy

 

[Eden]

Angels do not engage in conversation. Even the example in Luke 1 is very succinct and to the point. Couldn’t call that a conversation.

This is very important. Mary is not an angel. She was a human being. Human beings will never be angels and angels will never be human beings. They are separately created beings - the creation of the angels by God coming first. In approved apparitions, Mary has been witnessed to have been accompanied by angels, however.

Secondly, the entire point of approved Marian apparitions has been to deliver a message. There is very little, if any, “conversation” between the people who see and hear her and the Blessed Virgin although her messages have on occasion been lengthy or drawn out over several visits.

 

[mumof5]

LilyM:

A fair few protestant denominations DO say birth control is fine - abortion too in certain situations, not to mention divorce which is EXPLICITLY prohibited

Not the REAL ones. There are plenty of spiritually dead churches.

‘Hail full of grace the Lord is with thee blessed art thou among women’ - before he gets to the point? And then there is at least some exchange - Mary questions him. Sounds reasonably wordy.

That’s part of the point …

And read the OT and Revelations - some pretty lengthy verbiage from the angels in some of those passages

Such as?

. Raphael disguised himself as a human and was a travelling companion for Tobit - you think they never spoke?

Tobit…yes…wel…lol.

 

[mumof5]

Eden:

This is very important. Mary is not an angel. She was a human being. Human beings will never be angels and angels will never be human beings. They are separately created beings - the creation of the angels by God coming first. In approved apparitions, Mary has been witnessed to have been accompanied by angels, however.

Secondly, the entire point of approved Marian apparitions has been to deliver a message. There is very little, if any, “conversation” between the people who see and hear her and the Blessed Virgin although her messages have on occasion been lengthy or drawn out over several visits.

Any Marian vision is from the devil. There is nothing to support anyone but angels as messengers and no biblical references that support such apparitions.

 

[DeFide]

mumof5:

Any Marian vision is from the devil. There is nothing to support anyone but angels as messengers and no biblical references that support such apparitions.

Not true:

Intercessory Prayer of Saints
Rom 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25 - pray for us
2Thess 1:11 - we always pray for you
2Thess 3:1 - finally, brothers, pray for us
Eph 6:18-19 - making supplication for all the saints & for me
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah’s prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
Zech 1:12 - angel intercedes for Jerusalem
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 - those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God
Mk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead
Mk 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah & Moses
**Lk 9:31 - Elijah & Moses aware of earthly events **
Rev 6:9-11 - martyrs under altar want earthly vindication
Heb 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Lk 16:19-30 - departed rich man intercedes for brothers
Rev 20:4 - saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
Wis 3:1-6 - the souls of the just are in the hand of God
2Macc 15:7-16 - the departed Onias & Jeremiah pray for the Jews
Jas 5:16 prayers of righteous man
1 Cor. 13:12 - I shall understand fully
1 John 4: 20-21 - whoever loves God must love his brother
1 Cor 12:21 - parts of Christ’s Body cannot say to other parts, “I do not need you”.

---

Luke 9:31

And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his exodus that he was going to accomplish in Jerusalem.

 

[Eden]

mumof5:

Any Marian vision is from the devil. There is nothing to support anyone but angels as messengers and no biblical references that support such apparitions.

There are *no *biblical references to support that not only angels can be messengers?

The word Transfiguration means a changing of appearance or form. In Christianity The Transfiguration is a miraculous event in the Synoptic Gospel accounts of Jesus (Matthew 17:1–6, Mark 9:1–8, Luke 9:28–36): Jesus led three of his apostles, Peter, John, and James, to pray at the top of a mountain, where he became transfigured, with his face shining like the sun, and with brilliant white clothes; Elijah and Moses appeared with Jesus, and talked with him, and then a bright cloud appeared overhead, and a voice from the cloud proclaimed, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye Him.” According to Luke, Moses and Elijah also appeared in “glorious splendor”, and Jesus spoke with them concerning his upcoming death.

www.wikipedia.com

 

[Subrosa]

Where’s Alfie!? We want Alfie! AALLFFIIIIE!!

 

[Batjacboy]

I’ll make this brief, since it should go in another thread:

mumof5:

Tobit…yes…wel…lol.

I wouldn’t be too dismissive of Tobit–if it was good enough for Christ, it should be good enough for you:

Matthew 7:12: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

According to Christ, this Golden Rule can be found in the Old Testament, which He quotes from. We know where it’s from: Tobit.

Where’s the direct quote in your Old Testament? Remember, Christ said, He’s quoting the law and the prophets.

Bottom line: Lily, therefore, is perfectly right to mention Raphael.

And you didn’t bother to address her other point:

And read the OT and Revelations - some pretty lengthy verbiage from the angels in some of those passages.

Please do so.

 

[LilyM]

mumof5:

Tobit…yes…wel…lol.

Care to elaborate on what you mean by that? I know its not in the butchered Protestant canon of the Bible that they received from the CATHOLIC Church and followed for 1000 years … by the way we’d like it back please …