Archaeological Evidences for the Book of Mormon?

[Eric_Hilbert]

Stay on the topic of the OP please

 

[lax16]

PorknPie, Stephan168, RebeccaJ, lax16, TexanKnight, PaulDupre1
DNA and the BOM (not problematic IMO, but Catholic geocentrism…):
If I understand the position put forth by all 6 of you (hope I didn’t miss any). DNA proves that the genetic ancestors for modern Indians are not primarily (and may not be partially) folks like Lehi, Ismael, and Zoram. There are numerous LDS leaders who have said this is what the BOM claims and is true. In close connection with this is the hemispheric geography model (a strong part of the DNA argument because the DNA argument includes samples from many Indian tribes primarily in the US however) also taught by numerous LDS leaders. So in light of all the quotes offered from LDS leaders I should choose among two options, 1. DNA science be damned I follow the BOM and LDS leaders (at least the ones quoted here. 2. I reject Mormonism because of DNA. Tangentially related to this is the “boundary maintenance” goal that may be what is really happening here. All Catholics (and Protestants) ignorant of this and other issues can safely reject Mormonism because the former Mormons have explained the relevant facts.

My thoughts:
I was already paying attention when Simon Southerton published his book on DNA. I also had been studying thoughts on the BOM and recognized that thoughtful believers pre-DNA had already abandoned the hemispheric geography model AND acknowledge that the BOM spoke of “others.”
On Signature Books website Southerton said:
“In 600 BC there were probably several million American Indians living in the Americas. If a small group of Israelites, say less than thirty, entered such a massive native population, it would be very hard to detect their genes today.”
He like you then went on to demand that all thoughtful LDS must follow the majority, but not totality, of statements by LDS leaders on the hemispheric geography and origins of modern Indians. But DNA was a done issue for me.
So, for me DNA has very little to say about the validity of the BOM and yet Nahom and Teotihuacan do (and a handful of other geographic and archeological HITS). The thoughts I had on the BOM were already such that DNA didn’t matter and Simon’s own words (as a learned by not expert source on DNA) confirm my position (as a less learned and certainly not expert on DNA).

So LDS leaders have not consistently demanded a hemispheric model, but LDS critics choose to dictate to LDS that LDS must believe in the hemispheric model. I feel as compelled to follow the critics as I think you should feel compelled to worship (Latria / Dulia be damned) Mary and be polytheists.

I feel less compelled to follow the critics than I think you SHOULD feel to follow Robert Sungenis and Gerry Matatics into the belief of geocentrism. Sungenis was one of my favorite Catholic apologists when I was really trying to come to grips with the strength of the pro-Catholic position contra the stupid anti-Catholic writings that were easier to find (like Mary worship).

I would suggest that the mental gymnastics to reject the not univocal teachings of LDS leaders on the hemispheric geography models are small leaps and simple thoughts. And the mental gymnastics necessary to reject the uniform teachings of the ECF on the proper interpretation of the Holy Scriptures concerning geocentricism are far more complicated and may in point of fact be an unwarranted departure from Tradition (with a capital faith requiring “T”).

I am not a geocentrist. I have at least one “Catholic” friend who is. I think the case that Catholic must be a geocentrist is at least an order of magnitude (greater than 10 times for you non-science folks) stronger than the case that a LDS must believe in the hemispheric geography model and the genetic ancestors of the Indians being folks from the BOM.

Charity, TOm

Hi Tom,

It really is much more simple than this. You either believe your apostles and prophets or you don’t.

If you don’t, then why are you Mormon? If you know better or disagree with your church leaders, isn’t that a problem?

Who can know more than a seer and a revelator?

Please try to answer the questions relating only to the LDS Church’s position on the Hill Cumorah being in New York.

 

[JamesCollins]

Tom,

I attended the December 6th conference at the University of Notre Dame titled “Catholics & Mormons: A New Dialogue”, sponsored by among others BYU. There were speeches from at least five LDS “scholars” (they do not use the word theologian). The final thoughts from the LDS faith were from Richard Bushman of Columbia University. In his remarks, he said that one thing bothering him (my paraphrase) was the lack of archeological evidence supporting the BOM. I thought this to be a very honest admission from someone who was quite well thought of by the other LDS attendees.

I say this to make a point that if Richard Bushman of Columbia University is having problems with this archeological question then it’s understandable that any other member of the LDS Church would have problems as well.

PnP

I wish I could have attended that conference – it might have been interesting. Maybe you can start another thread relating what went on as you remember it.

I believe there are lots of intelligent Mormons who understand the archaeology doesn’t support their position. Many of these people just ignore the cognitive dissonance that creates because they enjoy what the LDS Church offers them as a community and feel they have personally been directed by the Spirit in their successful lives and in raising their families. That is their validation. For many Mormons the LDS Church is more like an ethnicity than a religion – they would almost be better off to quit trying to convert us Gentiles who then go onto finding we were wrong in converting to Mormonism. I suspect a lot of their leaders don’t believe the founding story, but play along because they feel too many people would be destroyed emotionally to find out they were wrong. I certainly think Gordon B. Hinckley was in that camp so that the archaeology is ignored in favor of succoring the community’s belief in their ethnic tradition.

 

[lax16]

I wish I could have attended that conference – it might have been interesting. Maybe you can start another thread relating what went on as you remember it.

I believe there are lots of intelligent Mormons who understand the archaeology doesn’t support their position. Many of these people just ignore the cognitive dissonance that creates because they enjoy what the LDS Church offers them as a community and feel they have personally been directed by the Spirit in their successful lives and in raising their families. That is their validation. For many Mormons the LDS Church is more like an ethnicity than a religion – they would almost be better off to quit trying to convert us Gentiles who then go onto finding we were wrong in converting to Mormonism. I suspect a lot of their leaders don’t believe the founding story, but play along because they feel too many people would be destroyed emotionally to find out they were wrong. I certainly think Gordon B. Hinckley was in that camp so that the archaeology is ignored in favor of succoring the community’s belief in their ethnic tradition.

JamesCollins - I wonder why Mormons don’t think they can have community and family values outside of Mormonism?

I know many Catholics who are faithful and raising large, successful families and I know many Mormons who are not (I live in Utah). I don’t mean to be snarky, but the Mormons I know are dealing with divorce, drugs, suicide, prescription drug abuse etc. just like everyone else.

Thoughts?

 

[JamesCollins]

JamesCollins - I wonder why Mormons don’t think they can have community and family values outside of Mormonism?

I know many Catholics who are faithful and raising large, successful families and I know many Mormons who are not (I live in Utah). I don’t mean to be snarky, but the Mormons I know are dealing with divorce, drugs, suicide, prescription drug abuse etc. just like everyone else.

Thoughts?

Imagine if your entire family going back four or five generations was Mormon. Everyone’s hanging in there and you decide to bolt while everyone else stays in the LDS Church. You are excluded from family weddings and treated as close to a social outcast in your own family. Many of your business contacts shy away from you after you leave the LDS Church. Your former friends are all wary of you. I’ve been there and done that. I love Catholicism, but I am isolated from my family and former friends in a very real way since I’ve left the LDS Church. I’m not complaining, but that’s reality for LDS members who leave.

 

[TexanKnight]

Imagine if your entire family going back four or five generations was Mormon. Everyone’s hanging in there and you decide to bolt while everyone else stays in the LDS Church. You are excluded from family weddings and treated as close to a social outcast in your own family. Many of your business contacts shy away from you after you leave the LDS Church. Your former friends are all wary of you. I’ve been there and done that. I love Catholicism, but I am isolated from my family and former friends in a very real way since I’ve left the LDS Church. I’m not complaining, but that’s reality for LDS members who leave.

very, very true. I, too, went thru this. I know many mormons who stay lds for this very reason

 

[iepuras]

JamesCollins - I wonder why Mormons don’t think they can have community and family values outside of Mormonism?

I know many Catholics who are faithful and raising large, successful families and I know many Mormons who are not (I live in Utah). I don’t mean to be snarky, but the Mormons I know are dealing with divorce, drugs, suicide, prescription drug abuse etc. just like everyone else.

Thoughts?

James’ experience is very real and common for those who leave the LDS church. It is an insular community even for many who live outside Mormon strongholds in Utah/Idaho/Arizona. I work so I had my work friends, but outside of work all my supposed friends were LDS. When I left the LDS church, I pretty much lost all of my LDS “friends”. There have been a few futile efforts of love bombing even after I resigned, but no real efforts to be a true friend. I had to make new friends. I was excluded from my sister’s wedding. My family (except for one sister) doesn’t want to hear anything about my new faith, yet I am accused of having a secret life.

I live in Texas so it wasn’t too hard to meet new people and make new friends. My career certainly isn’t negatively impacted at all. It is much more difficult for those who leave the LDS church in heavily LDS communities.

 

[lax16]

Imagine if your entire family going back four or five generations was Mormon. Everyone’s hanging in there and you decide to bolt while everyone else stays in the LDS Church. You are excluded from family weddings and treated as close to a social outcast in your own family. Many of your business contacts shy away from you after you leave the LDS Church. Your former friends are all wary of you. I’ve been there and done that. I love Catholicism, but I am isolated from my family and former friends in a very real way since I’ve left the LDS Church. I’m not complaining, but that’s reality for LDS members who leave.

That would be very hard. I am sorry that you are going through that.

This is precisely what so many non-LDS complain about living in Utah. It is like a club, you’re in or you’re out. This is not what Jesus wants, I know.

Mormons use this type of alienation to keep people in the fold, as I am sure you know.

 

[lax16]

James’ experience is very real and common for those who leave the LDS church. It is an insular community even for many who live outside Mormon strongholds in Utah/Idaho/Arizona. I work so I had my work friends, but outside of work all my supposed friends were LDS. When I left the LDS church, I pretty much lost all of my LDS “friends”. There have been a few futile efforts of love bombing even after I resigned, but no real efforts to be a true friend. I had to make new friends. I was excluded from my sister’s wedding. My family (except for one sister) doesn’t want to hear anything about my new faith, yet I am accused of having a secret life.

I live in Texas so it wasn’t too hard to meet new people and make new friends. My career certainly isn’t negatively impacted at all. It is much more difficult for those who leave the LDS church in heavily LDS communities.

iepuras - It makes me so sad to hear of your situation.
I am glad to hear that you have made a new life for yourself in Texas.
(btw - How long have you lived in Texas and how do you like it?)

Don’t you think Mormons do this because, if they didn’t, even more people would leave the faith? It is the one thing I hear from Mormons over and over. We have one acquaintance who even wears his garments around his family so that they will not know that he is no longer going to church and yet, he has not gone for years.

 

[TOmNossor]

Tom,

I attended the December 6th conference at the University of Notre Dame titled “Catholics & Mormons: A New Dialogue”, sponsored by among others BYU. There were speeches from at least five LDS “scholars” (they do not use the word theologian). The final thoughts from the LDS faith were from Richard Bushman of Columbia University. In his remarks, he said that one thing bothering him (my paraphrase) was the lack of archeological evidence supporting the BOM. I thought this to be a very honest admission from someone who was quite well thought of by the other LDS attendees.

I say this to make a point that if Richard Bushman of Columbia University is having problems with this archeological question then it’s understandable that any other member of the LDS Church would have problems as well.

PnP
Sounds like a very interesting conference I wish I could have attended.
Are you sure that was Bushman’s point?
I read his address and I can begin to see how that might have reached you, but I do not think he had that in mind at all.
My past readings of him have suggested to me that he loves the willingness of LDS archeologist to really dig into the evidence and thought it peculiar that Evangelicals speak of finding “Jesus’s bones,” but are never really looking for them.
Aside from this, I do not think Archeology is a big Bushman area of study. I know he is familiar with Sorenson’s work, but I doubt he knows much of Gartner and John Clark and …
Anyway, here is the address I found:
rooneycenter.nd.edu/assets/120501/mormon_loneliness.pdf
Charity, TOm

 

[RebeccaJ]

iepuras - It makes me so sad to hear of your situation.
I am glad to hear that you have made a new life for yourself in Texas.
(btw - How long have you lived in Texas and how do you like it?)

Don’t you think Mormons do this because, if they didn’t, even more people would leave the faith? It is the one thing I hear from Mormons over and over. We have one acquaintance who even wears his garments around his family so that they will not know that he is no longer going to church and yet, he has not gone for years.

LOL@underwear checking relatives

 

[iepuras]

iepuras - It makes me so sad to hear of your situation.
I am glad to hear that you have made a new life for yourself in Texas.
(btw - How long have you lived in Texas and how do you like it?)

Don’t you think Mormons do this because, if they didn’t, even more people would leave the faith? It is the one thing I hear from Mormons over and over. We have one acquaintance who even wears his garments around his family so that they will not know that he is no longer going to church and yet, he has not gone for years.

My situation is actually not too bad, and it is improving. My family is starting to get used to me leaving the LDS church and becoming Catholic. My parents are even coming to our convalidation on Friday. Things are getting better overall, but part of my relationship with my family is broken and it will never be the same as it was. There are too many stories of marriages breaking up solely over non-belief in Mormonism to count. It’s really very sad.

I’ve lived in Texas most of my life other than my time at BYU and a few stints overseas. I love it here and don’t want to live anywhere else. Being in Texas has made it very easy to transition out of Mormonism. If Utah is wearing on you, come on down to Texas!

There is a lot of social and family pressure to stay in the LDS church. There are many unbelieving spouses who tow the line because of family. For those of us born in the LDS church, it can be very difficult to leave. It is like leaving the tribe.

To get back to the topic of the thread. If the picture on the left is archaeological evidence of the tree of life vision from the Book of Mormon, then the picture on the right is archeological evidence of ancient aliens.

 

[TexanKnight]

Sounds like a very interesting conference I wish I could have attended.
Are you sure that was Bushman’s point?
I read his address and I can begin to see how that might have reached you, but I do not think he had that in mind at all.
My past readings of him have suggested to me that he loves the willingness of LDS archeologist to really dig into the evidence and thought it peculiar that Evangelicals speak of finding “Jesus’s bones,” but are never really looking for them.
Aside from this, I do not think Archeology is a big Bushman area of study. I know he is familiar with Sorenson’s work, but I doubt he knows much of Gartner and John Clark and …
Anyway, here is the address I found:
rooneycenter.nd.edu/assets/120501/mormon_loneliness.pdf
Charity, TOm

why have you not answered my question re: Cumorah?

 

[lax16]

LOL@underwear checking relatives

And he also prefaces every question or comment that is not pro-Mormon with “I know my church is true, but…”

 

[lax16]

My situation is actually not too bad, and it is improving. My family is starting to get used to me leaving the LDS church and becoming Catholic. My parents are even coming to our convalidation on Friday. Things are getting better overall, but part of my relationship with my family is broken and it will never be the same as it was. There are too many stories of marriages breaking up solely over non-belief in Mormonism to count. It’s really very sad.

Congratulations on your convalidation! I am so happy to hear that your parents will be there. I will be praying that they are touched by the Holy Spirit.

I’ve lived in Texas most of my life other than my time at BYU and a few stints overseas. I love it here and don’t want to live anywhere else. Being in Texas has made it very easy to transition out of Mormonism. If Utah is wearing on you, come on down to Texas!

Funny you should say that. This morning on the way to school, my daughter (who is 8) and I were discussing what states we would want to live in. I said the only state that I would be interested in is Texas. I prefer a state that is conservative and has good BBQ.

There is a lot of social and family pressure to stay in the LDS church. There are many unbelieving spouses who tow the line because of family. For those of us born in the LDS church, it can be very difficult to leave. It is like leaving the tribe.

I can see that that is true.

To get back to the topic of the thread. If the picture on the left is archaeological evidence of the tree of life vision from the Book of Mormon, then the picture on the right is archeological evidence of ancient aliens.

lol

 

[TOmNossor]

why have you not answered my question re: Cumorah?

TexanKnight,
I answered here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11739203&postcount=101
I believe my position is OBVIOUS through my posts.
Please read them, type up what you think my position is in words that have as much pro-LDS content as you can possibly muster. If I believe you have done this, I will either clarify or agree with your post.
I am not sure what is not obvious about my position and I am disinclined to clarify at this point. There are IMO much more important positions to clarify.
Charity, TOm

 

[TexanKnight]

TexanKnight,
I answered here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11739203&postcount=101
I believe my position is OBVIOUS through my posts.
Please read them, type up what you think my position is in words that have as much pro-LDS content as you can possibly muster. If I believe you have done this, I will either clarify or agree with your post.
I am not sure what is not obvious about my position and I am disinclined to clarify at this point. There are IMO much more important positions to clarify.
Charity, TOm

yes…but I asked “why not for artifacts”?

and what could be more important than this?

 

[PaulDupre1]

To get back to the topic of the thread. If the picture on the left is archaeological evidence of the tree of life vision from the Book of Mormon, then the picture on the right is archeological evidence of ancient aliens.

The picture on the left doesn’t look like a tree to me. It looks like a very lareg headdress or crown.

Mormons will glom onto anything, however remote, to try to claim some evidence for the BoM.

 

[campeador]

Seriously, I clearly remember watching a group of boys play basketball in the church gym and thinking how stupid it was to believe they were gods in the making, and further even more ridiculous to think I had to have some idea of worthiness to marry one of them. BIG NO, there.

 

[Stephen168]

Sounds like a very interesting conference I wish I could have attended.
Are you sure that was Bushman’s point?
I read his address and I can begin to see how that might have reached you, but I do not think he had that in mind at all.
My past readings of him have suggested to me that he loves the willingness of LDS archeologist to really dig into the evidence and thought it peculiar that Evangelicals speak of finding “Jesus’s bones,” but are never really looking for them.
Aside from this, I do not think Archeology is a big Bushman area of study. I know he is familiar with Sorenson’s work, but I doubt he knows much of Gartner and John Clark and …

Bushman said one of the thing he likes about being Mormonism is, “…I admire the empiricism of Mormon belief. By that I mean that it is open to empirical testing, using concrete evidence.” This is not unique to Mormonism. And then he seems to say that isn’t important to Mormons, when he writes, “Mormons are in the anomalous position of saying that a spiritual testimony, not empirical proof, undergirds their faith, while all the while furiously working to dig up evidence in support of the Book of Mormon.”

When he spoke of Evangelicals finding “Jesus’ bones” he says that Evangelicals gave that as an example of empirical evidence. As he said Christians are not looking for “Jesus bones” because they don’t expect them to be there.

He does seem to admire Mormons looking for what should be there, but he never says it is there. My favorite quote is so typically Mormon, “I admire their courage, and furthermore their arguments must be taken seriously.” He suggests there are serious arguments but isn’t able to name any.

So what he likes about Mormonism is not unique to Mormonism, is not important in Mormonism, and fails in its application.