Are there any catholic solutions to the free market system? possibly a new system

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I am glad that there was a meeting at the vatican 4-1-09 on solutions to our financial crisis. one thing that came out of it was that the global financial managers have sought profit before the common good and dignity of the person and that the essential rights of workers must always be respected and promoted. I believe the values of the free market system can only lead to slavery and sins that cry out to God for justice. Could there possibly be a new answer to the free markets that God would approve of. St. Joseph please help us.
 
Free markets lead to slavery? It seems to me that the history of the 20th century would indicate rather that communist systems such as found in the USSR and in Cuba led to oppression and murder. Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, Ho Chi Minh, all favored extreme state control; all ended in oppression and murder of their citizens.
 
I am glad that there was a meeting at the vatican 4-1-09 on solutions to our financial crisis. one thing that came out of it was that the global financial managers have sought profit before the common good and dignity of the person and that the essential rights of workers must always be respected and promoted. I believe the values of the free market system can only lead to slavery and sins that cry out to God for justice. Could there possibly be a new answer to the free markets that God would approve of. St. Joseph please help us.
To me, at least, saying the “free market” is good or bad is like opining whether the earth is good or bad. If a volcano explodes under your house and wipes you and your family out, it can be bad. If it feeds you and your family, it can be thought of as good.

A totally unfettered free market can be thought of as the law of Attila the Hun. Loot, pillage, feast and gorge. But a properly directed, but otherwise free market can be thought of as people coming together voluntarily to trade those goods and services which they are able, through talent or resources, to provide, in exchange for those which others are better situated to provide. On the other hand, the “free market” never produced anything as murderous and horrible as the tightly controlled “markets” of Stalin and Mao. So, what should restrain the worst instincts of mankind in the marketplace?

On the one hand, we have the rule of law, which presupposes a ruling person or body with the resources and will to enforce reasonable rules. Our system is not, and never was, an unfettered “free market”. There were laws governing commerce from the very first, and are now. They might be effective in restraining the worst while encouraging the exchange of goods and services that we must have, but they might prove inadequate in ways and at times. The advantages of the “rule of law” are that they are accessible. People can know in advance what the rules are. The disadvantages are that the unscrupulous often find ways around the rules or corrupt the rulers for their own advantage.

On the other hand, we have the rule of regulation, in which individuals or agencies have the ability to manage more or less at will. A disadvantage of that is that people often do not know what they can and cannot do. And regulation is not immune to corruption either. Indeed, some of history’s most regulated societies have been the most corrupt.

Part of what’s going on right now is the struggle between those who want perhaps more in the way of law and less in the way of regulation; versus those whose preference is the opposite.

It is interesting to read the Social Encyclicals. They presume a relatively free market system, but further presume a well-ordered society that ensures a reasonable, but not confiscatory, distribution of the goods and services produced by society.

Without going into tedious detail, it does seem to me that in the U.S. we have greatly departed from the positions of the Social Encyclicals and are headed in precisely the wrong direction from another wrong direction. From what has been a lack of effective regulation of some things, we are now headed toward extreme regulation of nearly everything.

What we do not have in any significant way, is a society that really tries to educate itself to the wisdom and decency of the true social teachings of the Church. Indeed, many churchmen are themselves infected by statism in the form of varying degrees of “Liberation Theology”; a philosophical position closer to secular Marxism than to Christianity. One of the real tragedies of that fact is the further fact that most forms it takes are just one more empowerment of the Huns who manage to loot and pillage, no matter what one calls the system.
 
There isn’t “a” Catholic solution to the “free market” system, but there is Distributism, which several great Catholic thinkers, such as G. K. Chesterton and Hilary Belloc believed best for humanity.
 
There isn’t “a” Catholic solution to the “free market” system, but there is Distributism, which several great Catholic thinkers, such as G. K. Chesterton and Hilary Belloc believed best for humanity.
That sounds essentially similar to Jeffersonian Democracy.

The problem with modern finances is that it is based on a principle that the Bible condemns explicitly in the Old Testament and, arguably, by way of principle in the New Testament; namely, lending with usury.
 
I would hope that God would not allow for anymore violent societies as mentioned above but I believe that the U.S. free market system is doomed to failure and may also result in ugliness.When companies migrate to cheaper workforces they disrespect the peoples common good and dignity. They disrespect the people who basically built the companies. How can you go into a workplace with a good attitude if you know that one day some stockholder who knows nothing about the business but desires profit above all will require your job to go overseas for slaves? The labor populous of the U.S. cannot compete against 3rd world countries and survive.
 
That sounds essentially similar to Jeffersonian Democracy.

The problem with modern finances is that it is based on a principle that the Bible condemns explicitly in the Old Testament and, arguably, by way of principle in the New Testament; namely, lending with usury.
Yes, it does, doesn’t it? It’s why Jefferson was so opposed to Alexander Hamilton’s economic ideas. In the end, it was Hamilton the country went with not Jefferson. I have sometimes wondered what the modern world would look like if America had gone the Jeffersonian route.
human being:
I would hope that God would not allow for anymore violent societies as mentioned above but I believe that the U.S. free market system is doomed to failure and may also result in ugliness.When companies migrate to cheaper workforces they disrespect the peoples common good and dignity. They disrespect the people who basically built the companies. How can you go into a workplace with a good attitude if you know that one day some stockholder who knows nothing about the business but desires profit above all will require your job to go overseas for slaves? The labor populous of the U.S. cannot compete against 3rd world countries and survive.
Of course, you are seeing this from a Westerner’s point of view, which is understandable. And I’m not going to defend modern capitalism in which making money comes first and product/service is a mere means to that end. But, I have to say that for the people of the 3rd world countries having a poor income in a society that is even poorer is welcome to them just because it does bring an income of some kind. So, I agree with your basic objections, but I can see some up side to it, although each person owning his/her own property and being his/her own master would be infinitely better for everyone on the planet no matter where s/he lived. (I include women as primary property owners/masters since in some cases women have to be the head of a household not that it is ideal that they be so.)
 
I do welcome any ideas to this topic and thank everyone for their (name removed by moderator)ut. I believe we need a new system or at least a moral overhauling and i believe the catholic church would supply the proper guidance towards such a system for we are the Church that the Lord Jesus Christ has instituted.
 
You should read an old, but awesome papal encyclical titled “Rerum Novarum” It was written in response to the initial introduction of Marxism in the early 20th century as a catholic response to ideas of financially just social orders.

The danger with replacing free markets is that every alternative that has been tried has been WORSE. I still think the best we can hope for is a system like Distributism that relies on principled influence, not force, to broaden the ownership of productive assets.
 
It is interesting that many condemn the present, even seek to dismantle it, in preference for an idealized future none can envision and which has no precedent in the past. Many of the arguments against capitalism sound suspiciously like arguments with the human condition, and perhaps that’s because capitalism permits people in large part the freedom to be who they are.

Many speak wistfully about some form of socialized economy when they are able to form a vision of some type of alternative economy. They disregard completely that the socialist ideal has produced widespread misery, slavery, and millions dead in purges. It is a system that cannot explain individual initiative nor provide the fuel for success and excellence. Capitalism, conversely, has provided a standard of living top to bottom far exceeding any heretofore found on earth, a society of laws and personal liberty.

Catholics who cannot find the morality in that result perhaps need to consider the raison d’etre of government. It could well be said that all government is evil, for on what basis can one man rule another? In the choice of governments or economies it is a choice of the lesser of evils.
 
Many speak wistfully about some form of socialized economy when they are able to form a vision of some type of alternative economy. They disregard completely that the socialist ideal has produced widespread misery, slavery, and millions dead in purges.
This is worth highlighting. If recent history has proven anything, it is that state controlled systems have produced enormously worse results than free markets.

And this is not unreasonable. After all, any economic ‘system’ is at root operated by people–human beings who are subject to the human condition and human failings. Why should one think that the few human beings in charge of government control or government regulation will be somehow wiser or more beneficent that the millions of human beings who in the aggregate control free markets?
 
It is interesting that many condemn the present, even seek to dismantle it, in preference for an idealized future none can envision and which has no precedent in the past. Many of the arguments against capitalism sound suspiciously like arguments with the human condition, and perhaps that’s because capitalism permits people in large part the freedom to be who they are.

Many speak wistfully about some form of socialized economy when they are able to form a vision of some type of alternative economy. They disregard completely that the socialist ideal has produced widespread misery, slavery, and millions dead in purges. It is a system that cannot explain individual initiative nor provide the fuel for success and excellence. Capitalism, conversely, has provided a standard of living top to bottom far exceeding any heretofore found on earth, a society of laws and personal liberty.

Catholics who cannot find the morality in that result perhaps need to consider the raison d’etre of government. It could well be said that all government is evil, for on what basis can one man rule another? In the choice of governments or economies it is a choice of the lesser of evils.
Distributism is the exact opposite of socialism. If you read Chesterton’s “Outline of Sanity” you will see that he was against both big business and big government. Here is a good article explaining his and Dorothy Day’s position on it.
 
This was the kind of stuff i was hoping for. Differrent ideas with a catholic viewpoint. Not that it is some kind of perfect ideal for my own situation or my own views but a different view on economics which even has quotes from Pope John Paul ll. I cannot stand the so called conservatives of the radio and neither can i support the democrats. neither supports me. But I was hoping very much that I could look to the people of the church for different viewpoints and i’m happy that I asked. I am not communist and it probably is Calvinistic protestantism and I wouldn’t even doubt freemasonry at the root of most of this system. I hope to read more ideas and suggestions from people also. thank you very much.
 
I would also like to read “Rerum Novarum” as suggested above. Can I find this on the internet?

I just don’t understand how somebody like Rush Limbaugh, or Sean Hannity or Glenn Beck can blow their horn so loudly for free trade and so loudly against the unions who are nothing more than the best capitalists who don’t own businesses. If they got their free trade desires fullfilled it would just mean that their radio sponsors would actually seek out an intelligent well spoken 3rd world person who knows the u.s. constitution as good as they do(and there probably are some who do) and that would be happy to do their job for a bag of beans and rice per week. and then these radio personalities would be looking for some regulations or a union to join to defend their american jobs. everything is just so distrustful and hypocritical to me anymore.
 
I would also like to thank ridgerunner for his/her response. And I do not wish to offend anybody who has a job which was once in the U.S. It is the stockmarket system that baffles me. There is no one person who is responsible for a corporation. It seems that there are just a bunch of people investing in companys and they have no knowledge of what the company does nor do they care at all about the dignity or common good of the employees. They are just interested in the profits they desire from their stock purchase. And I believe they do not feel at all responsible for any immoral decisions that the company makes for they do not run the company and there may be numerous shareholders in the company. Maybe they only own small shares. It is not their fault that a ceo makes a decision against the dignity or common good of its employees. But the ceo makes that decision to keep them as shareholders happy. And in so doing maybe whole tightnit towns and communities are destroyed but the shareholders are numb and don’t care.They only care about their profits. Maybe God is waking us up to this now with this financial crisis and maybe he even tried to wake us up to this on the attack on the world trade center. for it is almost a temple to the wall street money god almighty stockmarket. Maybe shareholders should care a little more about the moral choices their companies make and maybe God is saying you are responsible for the sins that cry out to Him for judgement if a company you own a share of is doing something wrong even if it is only a 1.00 share.
 
I do welcome any ideas to this topic and thank everyone for their (name removed by moderator)ut. I believe we need a new system or at least a moral overhauling and i believe the catholic church would supply the proper guidance towards such a system for we are the Church that the Lord Jesus Christ has instituted.
God has already done this for us. The first commandment reads: "Do not worship false gods.’ The fiat currency we trade with is exactly that.

That’s why Ron Paul wants to do away with the Federal Reserve. No entity should be entrusted to print money for a tiny few.

Then remember the parable about the Workers in the Field. Each was given the same regardless of how many hours he worked. This is called contract honoring and is God’s law.
 
Request granted:

vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html

Rerum Novarum online.

You GOTTA love the Vatican website. One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and On-line.

You’ve really nailed the problem with modern capitalism. On the plus side, corporations allow regular Joes without the capital to start up a business to still make business investments. The downside of this system is the dehumanizing effects large corporations have on the top level decision making process and the tendency such institutions have towards massive size which compounds the tendency towards dehumanization. Government regulation and taxation should be geared to favor small, privately owned business over publicly traded corporations in any and all industries where the former is remotely feasible.
 
My brother works for AT&T, and is a member of the Communication Workers of American union. They are currently working without a contract as the deadline expired before an agreement could be reached. I hope that a settlement will be reached which will not be detrimental to the workers. Currently they have very good benefits including excellent health care benefits and a pension plan.

There has been so much talk of evil corporations and how smaller is better, yet this occurred to me: If he worked for a small company, it’s unlikely that such a company could provide the same level of benefits. It’s likely he would have a lesser standard of living working for a smaller company rather than a large corporation, even as a non-management union employee.

While the union and the management and the stockholders do not all have identical interests, they do not have wildly divergent interests either. It is in the interest of all parties that the company make a profit sufficient to provide the current level of benefits, as well as dividends to the stockholders. And the stockholders in this case are also the employees, as company stock is a large part of the employee pension plan.

This large (evil?) corporation provides a better standard of living to its employees than could be provided by the government. It’s also managed better than the government could manage it. There is competition from other corporations, because ATT is no longer a monopoly. It would in my opinion be a grave mistake to forgo capitalism in favor of socialism. The outcome for all concerned would be much worse.
 
AT&T is an excellent example. They are a competitive and healthy company PRECISELY because steps were taken to break up the moribund monopoly that existed 30 years ago. Back then EVERYBODY hated the phone company. Rates were MUCH higher compared to today (in proportion to income) and service was awful.

Things got much better when it was broken up into pieces with AT&T only being a long distance provider and the local services scattered. They’ve since reconsolidated, but with the advent of cable TV phone service and web based phone service, I don’t forsee the same horrible problems coming back.

As for small company benefits, you’re barking up the wrong tree. I’ve got superb PPO health coverage, a 401k with company matching contributions, good vacation time and so forth. Total of about 30 employees in the firm.
 
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