Atheist friend says: "There is no free will, we are domino's"

[MyVavies]

Repetitive studies show that we learn through mimicking as a child. For example; The toddler sees and experiences its mom rocking and soothing a crying baby. They learned then that is what we must do to a crying baby is rock it. With play practicing, we soon conditioned ourselves to do the same later on. On the other side of the street. A toddler sees and experiences the mother yelling and screaming at the baby to “Shut UP!” and barely attends to the cry. Soon , when those toddlers grow up, so do they do the same with their offspring.

                           With this knowledge that I speak of. How does one explain where free will comes in? With their biologic genetics and the way they were environmentally conditioned  in responses like these,  It was already ingrained in their head from infancy how they would act on that given situation! 

                           One of you might bring up the fact that not all children who were raised in a poor environment turn out like their primary caregiver. Which you are right. And what my atheist friends say is, it's a bio-social thing. BOTH the way you were raised AND what genes you have. Also, one thing JUST ONE SMALL THING like ONE gene or ONE simple act ( like an epic school teacher) could change a bad outcome to a good one. 

                           Still... where is the choice. That once, as a child, the teacher themselves too slowly were bio-socially "programmed" by others through out their life , who were bio-socially "programmed" , just like that child, and we are all nothing but pool balls in a billiard room bouncing off each other. Preconditioned. One person's life just merely effecting another, like domino's.
                                                                                 
                                                                                  How do you respond to that?
         
                                                                                                      Thanks!

                                                                                                               Janine

 

[Vico]

Repetitive studies show that we learn through mimicking as a child. For example; The toddler sees and experiences its mom rocking and soothing a crying baby. They learned then that is what we must do to a crying baby is rock it. With play practicing, we soon conditioned ourselves to do the same later on. On the other side of the street. A toddler sees and experiences the mother yelling and screaming at the baby to “Shut UP!” and barely attends to the cry. Soon , when those toddlers grow up, so do they do the same with their offspring.

                           With this knowledge that I speak of. How does one explain where free will comes in? With their biologic genetics and the way they were environmentally conditioned  in responses like these,  It was already ingrained in their head from infancy how they would act on that given situation! 

                           One of you might bring up the fact that not all children who were raised in a poor environment turn out like their primary caregiver. Which you are right. And what my atheist friends say is, it's a bio-social thing. BOTH the way you were raised AND what genes you have. Also, one thing JUST ONE SMALL THING like ONE gene or ONE simple act ( like an epic school teacher) could change a bad outcome to a good one. 

                           Still... where is the choice. That once, as a child, the teacher themselves too slowly were bio-socially "programmed" by others through out their life , who were bio-socially "programmed" , just like that child, and we are all nothing but pool balls in a billiard room bouncing off each other. Preconditioned. One person's life just merely effecting another, like domino's.
                                                                                 
                                                                                  How do you respond to that?
         
                                                                                                      Thanks!

                                                                                                               Janine

From Catholic Answers Michael Maher:

A “person is held responsible for a crime, or that he deserves praise or reward for an heroic act of self-sacrifice, we mean that he was author and cause of that act in such fashion that he had it in his power not to perform the act.” … " the determinist doctrine would annihilate human morality, consequently that such a theory cannot be true."

" we are sure that we sometimes exert free volition, because at other times we are the subject of conscious activities that are not free, and we know the difference. Again, it is urged that experience shows that men are determined by motives, and that we always act on this assumption. The reply is that experience proves that men are influenced by motives, but not that they are always inexorably determined by the strongest motive. It is alleged that we always decide in favor of the strongest motive. This is either untrue, or the barren statement that we always choose what we choose. A free volition is “a causeless volition”. The mind it-self is the cause."

catholic.com/encyclopedia/free-will

 

[Lion_IRC]

If I push you and make you bump into a passer-by, (thereby hurting them,) have you done something immoral? Have you sinned?

Obviously no. Right?

Sin has to be deliberate. A freely chosen decision.

But if there’s no free will - autonomy - then there’s no sin. No culpability. No immorality. No mens rea

Ask your friend what we “ought” to do with pedophiles, rapists, murderers…if they aren’t responsible for their actions? Are they born that way? (Like gay people)

 

[Aloysium]

Given the biological, social and psychological make up that is the context of our lives, we give shape to who we are through our choices.

We can respond to the friend’s statements in different ways, and there will be some good philosophical arguments presented here.

Another approach would involve trying to understand the intention of the person.
Your friend has chosen (or in his view, has had thrust upon him) his particular understanding of our destiny (fate).
We can assume that he is taking that position for personal reasons.
He may feel trapped in a life that is too far removed from his dreams.
Underlying feelings of jealousy, resentment about not getting what he wants or feels he deserves in life can turn such a discussion into a fist fight, if a bit of alcohol is thrown into the mix. Especially, if on the other side, the person has known injustice.
The attitude might also be an attempt to assuage guilt, to justify one’s lack of accomplishment.
There’s a anger, sadness and bitterness that can come from a lack of intimacy. Sometimes it is a reaction to loneliness.
Having a spouse and trying to make it work, will in most cases cure one of any such attitude. I’m not talking about tolerance, which seeks to understand and leaves it as that, but of love. To care about someone involves taking them as they are, with their faults and in the recognition that they do what they do because they have chosen to do so. It can really hurt. Love respects the person and their choices.
I am thinking that a view that people are programmed to behave in set ways would be tied to a manipulative approach to life. Since a request will not get others to do what you want, you can make them by adjusting the circumstances.

I would take it as an opportunity to get to know the friend.
Puts on Dr Phil hat. :tiphat:
That said, if it was found that this was only as deep as a desire to argue, my interest level would plummet.

 

[GEddie]

It is true that free-will in human life is generously overstated, and that it is to an extent a mirage.

But that doesn’t really matter. To the extent that we think we are free, we exercise freedom.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Gorgias]

It is true that free-will in human life is generously overstated, and that it is to an extent a mirage.

That depends on whether you mis-define ‘free will’ as free action, or if you really are just talking about one’s will.

The OP’s friend, on the other hand, seems to equate ‘learning’ with ‘lack of freedom.’ That doesn’t really hold up to reason. Was the OP’s friend taught ‘no free will’? If not, then what explains his personal choice to reject the notion of free will? Doesn’t the very act of railing against free will demonstrate that it actually exists?

Yet, in the face of decisions that are seemingly rooted in free will, the OP’s friend asserts (without attribution) that ‘genes’ are the explanation. This, too, is difficult to swallow. If genes trump ‘conditioning’, then whole families should prosper, and do so without exception. That is, there should be no such thing as the ‘black sheep in the family’ phenomenon – after all, the ‘black sheep’ shares the same ‘conditioning-resistant genes’ as the rest of the family, right?

Janine heard her friend make these claims: how would the friend respond to Janine’s choice to present the claims here? Aren’t there a range of other reasonable ways to react? Doesn’t the free will choice to present them here for discussion refute her friend’s claims? Even more fundamentally: doesn’t her friend’s free will choice to explain his ideas about the non-existence of free will refute his own claims? After all, he could have chosen not to mention this to Janine. Isn’t this a real choice?

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Why can’t it be a little bit of both? ?? Why argue over this and split hairs?

There is the phrase “there but for the Grace of God go I”… We also know that we have the ability to sin if we so choose. Even at that, one must have the knowledge of what sin in to freely choose it, right? Some people, a lot of people, just react- most of it learned behavior, some maybe not so much so.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Repetitive studies show that we learn through mimicking as a child. For example; The toddler sees and experiences its mom rocking and soothing a crying baby. They learned then that is what we must do to a crying baby is rock it. With play practicing, we soon conditioned ourselves to do the same later on. On the other side of the street. A toddler sees and experiences the mother yelling and screaming at the baby to “Shut UP!” and barely attends to the cry. Soon , when those toddlers grow up, so do they do the same with their offspring.

                           With this knowledge that I speak of. How does one explain where free will comes in? With their biologic genetics and the way they were environmentally conditioned  in responses like these,  It was already ingrained in their head from infancy how they would act on that given situation! 

                           One of you might bring up the fact that not all children who were raised in a poor environment turn out like their primary caregiver. Which you are right. And what my atheist friends say is, it's a bio-social thing. BOTH the way you were raised AND what genes you have. Also, one thing JUST ONE SMALL THING like ONE gene or ONE simple act ( like an epic school teacher) could change a bad outcome to a good one. 

                           Still... where is the choice. That once, as a child, the teacher themselves too slowly were bio-socially "programmed" by others through out their life , who were bio-socially "programmed" , just like that child, and we are all nothing but pool balls in a billiard room bouncing off each other. Preconditioned. One person's life just merely effecting another, like domino's.
                                                                                 
                                                                                  How do you respond to that?
         
                                                                                                      Thanks!

                                                                                                               Janine

I think until we find Christ in our lives we often blame circumstances for our problems. That’s why psychologists, psychiatrists and pharmacologists thrive in this world. (We rarely blame circumstances for our success though - no - no that was caused by our own free will!)

Once you are able to feel remorse and accept responsibility for your actions, and know that there is a loving God who gives you absolute forgiveness, you can move forward and know that no matter what happens in your life, you have free will to choose how you will act in the face troubles and good fortune.

Like you said, children who come from the same circumstances often grow up and live lives completely different from one another. Look at your own family and you will see this is true. We aren’t dominos unless we choose to live like a domino.

 

[GEddie]

I think until we find Christ in our lives we often blame circumstances for our problems. That’s why psychologists, psychiatrists and pharmacologists thrive in this world. (We rarely blame circumstances for our success though - no - no that was caused by our own free will!)

Once you are able to feel remorse and accept responsibility for your actions, and know that there is a loving God who gives you absolute forgiveness, you can move forward and know that no matter what happens in your life, you have free will to choose how you will act in the face troubles and good fortune.

Like you said, children who come from the same circumstances often grow up and live lives completely different from one another. Look at your own family and you will see this is true. We aren’t dominos unless we choose to live like a domino.

And as dominoes aren’t alive that’s another generous oversimplification

 

[CHRISTINE77]

And as dominoes aren’t alive that’s another generous oversimplification

Well the OP offered the analogy. I suppose the intent was we go through the motions like automatons or robots or something inhuman.

 

[FractalFire]

I must admit I empathize with your friend’s problem because I have had similar thoughts at times.

His materialist worldview has led him to the point where he is willing to compromise one of his most fundamental beliefs about reality to satisfy it.

I say “compromise” because, of course, no one in the real world has ever given up truly believing in free will for more than a second anymore than anyone has given up the proposition “I exist”. It’s just not possible to do so. Oh yes, you can *wax *elegant about how there is no free will, but five minutes later you are always undermining your position by acting as if you have one.

Personally, I have chosen to accept free will as one of my axioms of truth – a litmus test, if you will, of all I believe. It is simply so fundamental that there’s no point entertaining a worldview that does not include it – any evidence I may bring against it is *less *real to me than the immediate evidence of its existence. One might as well try to prove to me that I don’t exist or can’t think or that logic doesn’t work. If an argument can be cast against it, I have much better reasons to distrust the argument than I have to distrust it’s nature. Finally, free will is simply necessary for there to actually be any *me *to make a decision about its existence. If I don’t have free will, then I don’t have a choice about what I believe. Why accept this, then, since it destroys all reasoning and turns it towards madness? If I don’t have free will, all is meaningless anyway and I can’t reason myself towards correct conclusions. If I do have free will, I can.

We can thus discuss a sort of Pascal’s wager against the belief in no free will.

If free will does not exist, I don’t have a choice about what I believe and hence I lose nothing and gain nothing since nothing can be done about it.

If free will does exist, and I reject it, I lose everything by denying my own reason and living existence in a state of essentially, despair.

If free will does exist, and I accept it, I gain the correct recognition that it exists, the recognition that reason is useful, and potentially hope concerning the future.

Therefore, when in a state of uncertainty about free will, it is always more beneficial to believe in free will than not to believe.

In conclusion, your best line of attack is probably to point out the inconsistency of *believing *in no free will. Your friend has essentially reasoned himself to a point where he has reasoned there is no reason. His entire system of thought is thus flawed by this belief. If everyone is dominoes, then so is he, and more importantly, so is his belief that everyone is dominoes. He couldn’t have believed otherwise if he wanted to, which means he can’t be trusted to be true.

You may want to read some Christian philosophy detailing the problems with this worldview. Free will arguments get very complicated. William Lane Craig has some resources on this and I’m sure others here can point you towards some books on the matter.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Repetitive studies show that we learn through mimicking as a child. For example; The toddler sees and experiences its mom rocking and soothing a crying baby. They learned then that is what we must do to a crying baby is rock it. With play practicing, we soon conditioned ourselves to do the same later on. On the other side of the street. A toddler sees and experiences the mother yelling and screaming at the baby to “Shut UP!” and barely attends to the cry. Soon , when those toddlers grow up, so do they do the same with their offspring.

                           With this knowledge that I speak of. How does one explain where free will comes in? With their biologic genetics and the way they were environmentally conditioned  in responses like these,  It was already ingrained in their head from infancy how they would act on that given situation! 

                           One of you might bring up the fact that not all children who were raised in a poor environment turn out like their primary caregiver. Which you are right. And what my atheist friends say is, it's a bio-social thing. BOTH the way you were raised AND what genes you have. Also, one thing JUST ONE SMALL THING like ONE gene or ONE simple act ( like an epic school teacher) could change a bad outcome to a good one. 

                           Still... where is the choice. That once, as a child, the teacher themselves too slowly were bio-socially "programmed" by others through out their life , who were bio-socially "programmed" , just like that child, and we are all nothing but pool balls in a billiard room bouncing off each other. Preconditioned. One person's life just merely effecting another, like domino's.
                                                                                 
                                                                                  How do you respond to that?
         
                                                                                                      Thanks!

I didn’t learn that way. Not in a “monkey see, monkey do” sort of way.

 

[pianistclare]

Since he’s so gullible, and so inclined to do what others say, ask him for all his money.
He’ll exercise his free will alright.

 

[Tomdstone]

I think until we find Christ in our lives we often blame circumstances for our problems. That’s why psychologists, psychiatrists and pharmacologists thrive in this world.

Isn’t this type of thinking one of the reasons why there has been a great increase in the number of marriage annulments since Vatican II? People claim that their marriage was invalid because of defective consent?

 

[FractalFire]

Isn’t this type of thinking one of the reasons why there has been a great increase in the number of marriage annulments since Vatican II? People claim that their marriage was invalid because of defective consent?

Wait, what? How are those related? Could you clarify?

 

[Trident_H]

A guy who talks about free will not existing has obviously not thought in too deep a direction. He’s obviously never asked a recovering addict his opinion. If free will didn’t exist neither would I by this point.

 

[Tomdstone]

Wait, what? How are those related? Could you clarify?

At the time of the marriage, did both parties freely accept the lifelong commitment they were making. Was there consent a free choice or did outside circumstances mean that their choice was not a result, at least partially, of a free will decision? Defect in the consent exchanged between the partners is a major reason given for requesting a marriage annulment.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Repetitive studies show that we learn through mimicking as a child. For example; The toddler sees and experiences its mom rocking and soothing a crying baby. They learned then that is what we must do to a crying baby is rock it. With play practicing, we soon conditioned ourselves to do the same later on. On the other side of the street. A toddler sees and experiences the mother yelling and screaming at the baby to “Shut UP!” and barely attends to the cry. Soon , when those toddlers grow up, so do they do the same with their offspring.

                           With this knowledge that I speak of. How does one explain where free will comes in? With their biologic genetics and the way they were environmentally conditioned  in responses like these,  It was already ingrained in their head from infancy how they would act on that given situation! 

                           One of you might bring up the fact that not all children who were raised in a poor environment turn out like their primary caregiver. Which you are right. And what my atheist friends say is, it's a bio-social thing. BOTH the way you were raised AND what genes you have. Also, one thing JUST ONE SMALL THING like ONE gene or ONE simple act ( like an epic school teacher) could change a bad outcome to a good one. 

                           Still... where is the choice. That once, as a child, the teacher themselves too slowly were bio-socially "programmed" by others through out their life , who were bio-socially "programmed" , just like that child, and we are all nothing but pool balls in a billiard room bouncing off each other. Preconditioned. One person's life just merely effecting another, like domino's.
                                                                                 
                                                                                  How do you respond to that?
         
                                                                                                      Thanks!

                                                                                                               Janine

Catholic teaching accounts for factors (ie habits from how you were raised) into account regarding impacting free will.

The child getting told to shut-up may not be the best example, because I don’t think children always remember that.

To say that we may be influenced by others is fine. To say that we don’t have any responsibilities with the choices we make (aside people who are ill) is dangerous to the soul and society.

 

[anon67074017]

Your friend’s statement goes along with the atheist materialist ideal that humans can be controlled easily because they can not think for themselves. This philosophy is used in communist states to control the masses. This is why the New World Order is so successful at brainwashing the masses.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Isn’t this type of thinking one of the reasons why there has been a great increase in the number of marriage annulments since Vatican II? People claim that their marriage was invalid because of defective consent?

What - people blaming circumstances for their actions? Maybe. But often divorces are because people made poor marriage choices to begin with. What is your point?