Believe I finally get Judas

[HabemusFrancis]

As we all know, Judas is a controversial figure both historically and religiously.

He has evoked both digust and pity from people throughout history and many today believe he was somewhat misunderstood, to one degree or another.

I myself have started several topics about him, trying to get answers about just who he was, and why he did what he did. Does he deserve to be as reviled as he has been?

After a good amount of thought/speculation and reflection… I am honestly surprised to find myself thinking, yes he does.

His whole story just seemed quite distressing and unnerving the more I thought about it.

This was a person who responded to Jesus’ call, and got to have a “personal relationship” with Him, in a way no Christian today does. Then again… it was likely far less than that of many Christians today.

I have just heard many Catholics say that “it wasn’t the betrayal that (possibly?) damned Judas, but his despair.” I think this is essentially correct, but I feel it sort of doesn’t give the whole picture of Judas or really explain why Judas’ actions, and (I believe) interior mindset… were deeply wrong. The more I think and contemplate the character the worse he seems to be. Much worse than Pontius Pilate IMO, and he and Peter (his denial not withstanding) simply are not in the same category, in terms of sin.

He was a person who saw Jesus’ works, teachings and wonders for up to three years, but apparently was fine selling him for 30 pieces of silver. My personal theory is that he felt bitter and dissapointed that Jesus was not going to be a “king” or have a “kingdom” in the traditional sense of the word. He had given Jesus three years of his time and hope, and realized that (in his mind) they would not bare fruit. Perhaps he had “his fill” of Jesus and decided he had better try his luck with the “real messiah.”

I think he could have thought that Jesus was a talented sorcerer or wise man, but likely did not believe His claims to be the Son of God.

I believe he may indeed have hated Jesus, and had some idea that He would meet a painful end from the high priests. Also… I really am not a fan of whole “kiss of Judas.”

You might think I am just creative, and to some extent I am. But all of these thoughts/ideas came to me in contemplating a certain picture. employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/ARTH213images/ArenaChapel/Passion/Betrayal_Kiss.jpg

I sometimes contemplate religious art for a means of refleciton/spiritual insight. I “contemplated” the above work in a similar way. Instead of peace and clarity, I got a strange feeling of unease, distress, and a small amount of fear. Sort of a feeling that Judas was perhaps a psychologically darker person than anyone can really know.

Anyway… this has been sort of an ongoing topic for me on these forums, but I thought I’d share my conclusion, and perhaps get your opinions on how accurate ( or maybe otherwise) my perception (revelation ?) might be.

Let me know when you can !

 

[tonyrey]

The fact that Jesus had demonstrated how much He loved people by working miracles of healing which Judas witnessed makes it very difficult to believe he didn’t believe His claims to be the Son of God and hated Him. That would be a very abnormal reaction which suggests he was either very evil or mentally unbalanced. The very fact that Judas said “I have betrayed innocent blood” disproves both of those explanations. A man who is sane and tormented by guilt is more likely to commit suicide than a sceptic who decided he had better try his luck (when he was dead!) with the “real messiah”.

 

[HabemusFrancis]

The fact that Jesus had demonstrated how much He loved people by working miracles of healing which Judas witnessed makes it very difficult to believe he didn’t believe His claims to be the Son of God and hated Him. That would be a very abnormal reaction which suggests he was either very evil or mentally unbalanced. The very fact that Judas said “I have betrayed innocent blood” disproves both of those explanations. A man who is sane and tormented by guilt is more likely to commit suicide than a sceptic who decided he had better try his luck (when he was dead!) with the “real messiah”.

Hopefully your correct and I am wrong.

I just think it’s sort of an abnormal thing for Judas (or anyone) to do. If indeed he loved him… or believed he was the son of God. Why would he sell him for 30 pieces of silver? What seperated Judas from Bartholomew,Peter,John both James’ etc?

I myself don’t buy “Jesus Christ Superstar’s” take on Judas. Jesus seemed to make it clear that he wasn’t really about overthrowing the Roman rule over Judea or being a monarch of his own. He never claimed to be a “revoluntionary” in that sense. I think one of the reasons the Romans were tolerant of Jesus’ ministry was because it was explicitly nonviolent and non-political, and open to non-Jews, such as Romans, Samaritans and Greeks.

I just sort of thought the only reason for it was dissapointment and bitterness. It is a sad thing to say, but not all people but the same premium on miracles, or even works of mercy of any kind.

Just my additional two cents…

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Personally, I don’t think Judas felt bitter about Jesus at all. And I certainly don’t think he did it for the money. He did, after all, carry the money for the group of Jesus’ inner circle.

I think Judas had no idea Jesus would be crucified; I think he thought he would just be jailed or his activities would be curtailed until after Passover. I think he was afraid Jesus would start a revolt and THEN perhaps face crucifixion. So, in a sense, I think Judas wanted to save Jesus from crucifixion.

I see Judas as a tragic figure. He knew Jesus; he was the recipient of Jesus’ love, yet when he needed that love and mercy most, he turned away from it and hung himself.

 

[SyroMalankara]

As we all know, Judas is a controversial figure both historically and religiously.

He has evoked both digust and pity from people throughout history and many today believe he was somewhat misunderstood, to one degree or another.

I myself have started several topics about him, trying to get answers about just who he was, and why he did what he did. Does he deserve to be as reviled as he has been?

After a good amount of thought/speculation and reflection… I am honestly surprised to find myself thinking, yes he does.

His whole story just seemed quite distressing and unnerving the more I thought about it.

This was a person who responded to Jesus’ call, and got to have a “personal relationship” with Him, in a way no Christian today does. Then again… it was likely far less than that of many Christians today.

I have just heard many Catholics say that “it wasn’t the betrayal that (possibly?) damned Judas, but his despair.” I think this is essentially correct, but I feel it sort of doesn’t give the whole picture of Judas or really explain why Judas’ actions, and (I believe) interior mindset… were deeply wrong. The more I think and contemplate the character the worse he seems to be. Much worse than Pontius Pilate IMO, and he and Peter (his denial not withstanding) simply are not in the same category, in terms of sin.

He was a person who saw Jesus’ works, teachings and wonders for up to three years, but apparently was fine selling him for 30 pieces of silver. My personal theory is that he felt bitter and dissapointed that Jesus was not going to be a “king” or have a “kingdom” in the traditional sense of the word. He had given Jesus three years of his time and hope, and realized that (in his mind) they would not bare fruit. Perhaps he had “his fill” of Jesus and decided he had better try his luck with the “real messiah.”

I think he could have thought that Jesus was a talented sorcerer or wise man, but likely did not believe His claims to be the Son of God.

I believe he may indeed have hated Jesus, and had some idea that He would meet a painful end from the high priests. Also… I really am not a fan of whole “kiss of Judas.”

You might think I am just creative, and to some extent I am. But all of these thoughts/ideas came to me in contemplating a certain picture. employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/ARTH213images/ArenaChapel/Passion/Betrayal_Kiss.jpg

I sometimes contemplate religious art for a means of refleciton/spiritual insight. I “contemplated” the above work in a similar way. Instead of peace and clarity, I got a strange feeling of unease, distress, and a small amount of fear. Sort of a feeling that Judas was perhaps a psychologically darker person than anyone can really know.

Anyway… this has been sort of an ongoing topic for me on these forums, but I thought I’d share my conclusion, and perhaps get your opinions on how accurate ( or maybe otherwise) my perception (revelation ?) might be.

Let me know when you can !

What if Judas really did think he was the Son of God but in doing so, thought that He would never allow Himself to be crucified or seriously hurt? Bingo bango, ol Judas gets the money, Jesus frees himself, the Jews get ripped off and the Romans are overthrown… And tell two have a good laugh… even the idea of using your spiritual master as a pawn in this money game, or bait to get a bag of mone seems awful. Maybe he justified it with, well the master won’t mind so much if we use the money to feed another 5000… it’s also symbolic in a way that Judas name is basically Judah in Hebrew. Judah betrays it’s Master to its oppressor for worldly gain. One couldn’t write it more clearer but the allegorical meaning goes further and further

 

[tweedlealice]

Salutations,
Jesus was teaching us one thing w Judas and that is, there would be evil in the church. 11 faithful apostles and one bad apple. Judas managed the money. Corruption in the church concerning money.
Recall, Judas was upset about the money that Mary Magdalene spent on the spicknard oint. It was very expensive. Judas vocalized this. Jesus, rebuked Judas. I don’t recall the exact words but Jesus defended her actions, saying something like “the Bridegroom will be with you for only a short time. Let her be.” Judas was upset and left the room and went to the Temple to make his deal for turning Jesus in.
So, knowing He was going to pray in the garden of Gethsemane, Judas took the Romans and Pharisees there. He kissed Jesus. Judas followed the crowd for awhile. When he realized what Jesus was going to go through, he had regrets. You are correct, in that, he didn’t want Jesus to suffer or die. He went back to the Temple to return the 30 pieces of silver.
The Pharisees threw the money back at him and he ran from it.“What have I done?” Then, the despair and hanging. An argument we have is, if Judas did what his destiny demanded of him, would his suicide condemn him to hell. He was sorry he did this. But the next few sentences point to hell. Is despair not a form of depression and mental illness? Though Judas felt he would not be forgiven. That would take mental illness argument away. He would be sane to have those thoughts which equals hell.
My family has suicide in it. It is worrisome about where did my loved ones go. There was mental illness in my situation. All for the sake of your sorrowful passion, have mercy on them and all the whole world. Forgiveness and mercy, please
in Christ’s love
Tweedlealice

 

[Aloysium]

It was so unnecessary, really.
They didn’t need judas to get Jesus, whom they had tried to apprehend earlier.
It was about Judas and his choice.
I agree with the above that the message is that there will be evil in the church.
For whatever reasons, as varied as our speculations about Judas, people in the face of goodness and truth, will side with death and deceit.
It is up to determine how we behave.
Truly blessed are those who have not seen, but believe.

 

[petra22]

What if Judas really did think he was the Son of God but in doing so, thought that He would never allow Himself to be crucified or seriously hurt? Bingo bango, ol Judas gets the money, Jesus frees himself, the Jews get ripped off and the Romans are overthrown… And tell two have a good laugh… even the idea of using your spiritual master as a pawn in this money game, or bait to get a bag of mone seems awful. Maybe he justified it with, well the master won’t mind so much if we use the money to feed another 5000… it’s also symbolic in a way that Judas name is basically Judah in Hebrew. Judah betrays it’s Master to its oppressor for worldly gain. One couldn’t write it more clearer but the allegorical meaning goes further and further

I thought along these lines also. Judas knew Jesus’ abilities to heal and do marvelous works. Maybe he didn’t actually believe he was God, but sent by God. Anyway, I think he wanted to force Jesus to take political control and it was because he thought (Judas thought) he was more educated and smarter than the other 11. He wanted to force Jesus to perform miracles to free himself because he tells the high priest to be careful and work quickly… the soldiers were prepared for a fight from Jesus or at least some miraculous event to try to free himself, thus they came with swords. When Jesus just stood there and let himself be taken–Judas couldn’t believe he had gotten it wrong and couldn’t live in a world that was not like the one he had in his mind–being second in command to the new King of Israel…

 

[tonyrey]

Salutations,
Jesus was teaching us one thing w Judas and that is, there would be evil in the church. 11 faithful apostles and one bad apple. Judas managed the money. Corruption in the church concerning money.
Recall, Judas was upset about the money that Mary Magdalene spent on the spicknard oint. It was very expensive. Judas vocalized this. Jesus, rebuked Judas. I don’t recall the exact words but Jesus defended her actions, saying something like “the Bridegroom will be with you for only a short time. Let her be.” Judas was upset and left the room and went to the Temple to make his deal for turning Jesus in.
So, knowing He was going to pray in the garden of Gethsemane, Judas took the Romans and Pharisees there. He kissed Jesus. Judas followed the crowd for awhile. When he realized what Jesus was going to go through, he had regrets. You are correct, in that, he didn’t want Jesus to suffer or die. He went back to the Temple to return the 30 pieces of silver.
The Pharisees threw the money back at him and he ran from it.“What have I done?” Then, the despair and hanging. An argument we have is, if Judas did what his destiny demanded of him, would his suicide condemn him to hell. He was sorry he did this. But the next few sentences point to hell. Is despair not a form of depression and mental illness? Though Judas felt he would not be forgiven. That would take mental illness argument away. He would be sane to have those thoughts which equals hell.
My family has suicide in it. It is worrisome about where did my loved ones go. There was mental illness in my situation. All for the sake of your sorrowful passion, have mercy on them and all the whole world. Forgiveness and mercy, please
in Christ’s love
Tweedlealice

“felt” gives the game away, Alice! Judas was overcome by mental agony and deep depression when he was confronted with the horrific consequences of his treachery. It is impossible for us to imagine his utter despair, self-loathing and revulsion for what he had done. He had every reason to believe his crime was unforgivable. When I try to put myself in his place I am overcome by such pity it brings tears to my eyes. Surely after enduring temptation in the desert Jesus forgave Judas for giving way. That is why He said “it would have better for this man if he had never been born”. It wasn’t because Judas was doomed to go to hell but because he believed he was unforgivable for betraying “innocent blood”. Jesus understood his mental agony perfectly because He too was enduring it for a different reason: the prospect of being tortured and nailed to the Cross. The more we suffer the more compassionate we become towards others who suffer. Although Jesus said nothing to the other thief it doesn’t imply he was going to hell. It simply means our faith is its own reward. If we pray we are given hope. Judas didn’t pray and gave way to despair but it wasn’t due to pride. It was his overwhelming sense of unworthiness - which really applies to all of us. None of us is worthy of Christ’s sacrifice and no one deserves to go to heaven, except perhaps the saints who have had to endure unimaginable torment of mind and body. As far as we know, Judas was the only person apart from St Peter and St Paul who was sorry for what he had done. Neither Herod, Caiaphas and Pilate showed any sign of remorse. We are not entitled to judge any of them but in that context Judas is certainly not the most evil person involved in the Passion of Our Lord.

You needn’t worry about your family. I had a friend who committed suicide because she was extremely depressed and thought she was dirty and unlovable even though she had a son who loved her. Strangely enough, the solicitor’s wife who became his foster mother also committed suicide three months later. One atheist philosopher, Professor C.E.M. Joad became a Christian because he realised the diabolical evil in the world has no natural explanation. I too believe supernatural evil is a force we cannot afford to ignore…

Requiescant in Pace.

 

[tonyrey]

Hopefully your correct and I am wrong.

I just think it’s sort of an abnormal thing for Judas (or anyone) to do. If indeed he loved him… or believed he was the son of God. Why would he sell him for 30 pieces of silver? What seperated Judas from Bartholomew,Peter,John both James’ etc?

I myself don’t buy “Jesus Christ Superstar’s” take on Judas. Jesus seemed to make it clear that he wasn’t really about overthrowing the Roman rule over Judea or being a monarch of his own. He never claimed to be a “revoluntionary” in that sense. I think one of the reasons the Romans were tolerant of Jesus’ ministry was because it was explicitly nonviolent and non-political, and open to non-Jews, such as Romans, Samaritans and Greeks.

I just sort of thought the only reason for it was dissapointment and bitterness. It is a sad thing to say, but not all people but the same premium on miracles, or even works of mercy of any kind.

Just my additional two cents…

I agree it was an abnormal thing for Judas (or anyone) to do.That’s why I believe he was possessed until he realised what he had done and by then it was too late to save his Master. He reminds me of Othello who said"O Iago, the pity of it, Iago!" after he had killed his wife. In his case Iago was the devil who deceived him.

 

[HabemusFrancis]

So… is his infamous reputation not really deserved?

It seems whenever he is depicted in baroque/renaissance art, or whenever any Saint writes about him, it is only with complete loathing and contempt.

Is the picture of a villainous Judas just midieval bigotry and superstition?

I used to sort of believe yes, but now I am not so sure. Apparently Judas Iscariot has appeared in several exorcisms over the course of the year. This man who works in deliverance minsitry even claims to have encountered him religiousdemonology.com/questions.html

Of course there is no way of proving the exorcism accounts of Judas are indeed real, or just fanciful stories, such as those of people encountering Poseidon, Thor or the Irish fairy folk…

 

[tonyrey]

I thought along these lines also. Judas knew Jesus’ abilities to heal and do marvelous works. Maybe he didn’t actually believe he was God, but sent by God. Anyway, I think he wanted to force Jesus to take political control and it was because he thought (Judas thought) he was more educated and smarter than the other 11. He wanted to force Jesus to perform miracles to free himself because he tells the high priest to be careful and work quickly… the soldiers were prepared for a fight from Jesus or at least some miraculous event to try to free himself, thus they came with swords. When Jesus just stood there and let himself be taken–Judas couldn’t believe he had gotten it wrong and couldn’t live in a world that was not like the one he had in his mind–being second in command to the new King of Israel…

Whatever Judas believed there is no doubt he made a fatal mistake and paid a very high price for doing so. I believe heaven, hell and purgatory all begin in this world. The ecstasy of the saints, the isolation of the wicked and the purification of those who repent. I don’t doubt which category Judas represents…

 

[tonyrey]

So… is his infamous reputation not really deserved?

It seems whenever he is depicted in baroque/renaissance art, or whenever any Saint writes about him, it is only with complete loathing and contempt.

Is the picture of a villainous Judas just midieval bigotry and superstition?

I used to sort of believe yes, but now I am not so sure. Apparently Judas Iscariot has appeared in several exorcisms over the course of the year. This man who works in deliverance minsitry even claims to have encountered him religiousdemonology.com/questions.html

Of course there is no way of proving the exorcism accounts of Judas are indeed real, or just fanciful stories, such as those of people encountering Poseidon, Thor or the Irish fairy folk…

I’m not sure which side the repentant Judas is supposed to represent!

 

[HabemusFrancis]

Whatever Judas believed there is no doubt he made a fatal mistake and paid a very high price for doing so. I believe heaven, hell and purgatory all begin in this world. The ecstasy of the saints, the isolation of the wicked and the purification of those who repent. I don’t doubt which category Judas represents…

Why don’t you doubt which one he represents? It seems most people in this thread are filled with doubts. I was once, until I seriously meditated on the issue, and concluded why (I believe) Judas did what he did.

Does your reasoning line up with mine? What is your… specific take, since there appears no specific narrative/justification that is canonical?

 

[tonyrey]

So… is his infamous reputation not really deserved?

It seems whenever he is depicted in baroque/renaissance art, or whenever any Saint writes about him, it is only with complete loathing and contempt.

Is the picture of a villainous Judas just midieval bigotry and superstition?

I used to sort of believe yes, but now I am not so sure. Apparently Judas Iscariot has appeared in several exorcisms over the course of the year. This man who works in deliverance minsitry even claims to have encountered him religiousdemonology.com/questions.html

Of course there is no way of proving the exorcism accounts of Judas are indeed real, or just fanciful stories, such as those of people encountering Poseidon, Thor or the Irish fairy folk…

I believe people are so horrified by the treachery of Judas they don’t take into account St Peter’s warning: “Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.” There is little doubt that people have been possessed and no longer fully responsible for their decisions. The remarkable fact about Judas was his sudden change of attitude. We don’t even know his state of mind when he agreed to betray his Master. What we do know is that he went from one extreme to another. We have a very accurate idea of his state of mind when he said “I have betrayed innocent blood”. A public confession of guilt is the last thing we would expect from hardened sinners like the hypocrites Jesus condemned as a brood of vipers. That fact alone is enough to destroy his infamous reputation and restore him to the ranks of repentant sinners for whom there is hope, to which paradoxically can be added his utter despair. To lose hope isn’t a crime which deserves eternal punishment. Nor can it be said that Judas worshipped himself and rejected God. He detested and rejected himself as worse than worthless. There can hardly be a case in human history of such extreme despair, sense of worthlessness and awareness of how much contempt he deserved. It can be truly said that he wished he had never been born, let alone chosen to be an apostle. The words of Othello keep ringing in my mind “O Iago, the pity of it, Iago!”
There is only one case I can think of that is greater than that - which is at the other extreme from guilt. It is the love and innocence that led to the Passion and Death of Our Lord who was unjustly tortured and murdered for our sins. Yet despite his reputation Judas was certainly not the most evil person who has ever lived in the world. There are others who have committed atrocities without feeling the slightest compunction. Jesus told us to forgive others as we forgive those who trespass against us. He also said what you do to others you do to me. Judas is not an exception even though he may have committed the worst crime in history. In one way or another many of us are guilty of betraying Jesus by our lack of love for others…

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Regardless of Judas’ motivations, I think the most interesting questions raised by the Judas story are:

1. Would Judas have thwarted God’s plan for the salvation of man if he had decided to do the “right” thing and not betray Jesus?
2. Is it actually the case that Judas would be better off unborn?

The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Regardless of Judas’ motivations, I think the most interesting questions raised by the Judas story are:

1. Would Judas have thwarted God’s plan for the salvation of man if he had decided to do the “right” thing and not betray Jesus?
2. Is it actually the case that Judas would be better off unborn?

God’s plan cannot be thwarted.

 

[tonyrey]

Regardless of Judas’ motivations, I think the most interesting questions raised by the Judas story are:

1. Would Judas have thwarted God’s plan for the salvation of man if he had decided to do the “right” thing and not betray Jesus?
2. Is it actually the case that Judas would be better off unborn?

The answer to each question is “No.” it wasn’t difficult to find Jesus who knew the High Priests were determined to take their revenge after being condemned as hypocrites.
Suffering per se is not a good reason to be deprived of existence in spite of Schopenhauer’s claim that it would be better if life had never existed on this earth.

Do you agree with him?

 

[tonyrey]

God’s plan cannot be thwarted.

Man proposes God disposes.

 

[tonyrey]

Why don’t you doubt which one he represents? It seems most people in this thread are filled with doubts. I was once, until I seriously meditated on the issue, and concluded why (I believe) Judas did what he did.

Does your reasoning line up with mine? What is your… specific take, since there appears no specific narrative/justification that is canonical?

I have given several reasons that have not been shown to be false.