Can a Mutation Change the Soul?

[mariagoretti24]

From what I understand, a human life begins at conception, all living beings have souls, and a human embryo is given a human soul at the moment of conception, right?

So, ignoring ethics and feasibility, if a scientist were to manipulate the genes of that zygote in such a way as to change it into a different species- say, a monkey- what would happen to the human soul that was originally there? Since the human cells would cease to exist, would the human soul leave the zygote, just like it would when the body dies? And since a monkey embryo would start developing, would a monkey’s soul take its place?

Or what about a less extreme case- one that actually does happen- if an embryo were to start out as a male XY cell, but a mutation early on in development leads to the majority of the cells being female XO cells, would the soul be male or female? Since the zygote was a male XY cell, a living person, shouldn’t it be given a male soul? But if that is the case, as the embryo develops into a female, would that person have a male soul in a female body?

Perhaps this is a “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin” question, but I thought it might be worth a shot to see what other people think…

 

[grannymh]

From what I understand, a human life begins at conception, all living beings have souls, and a human embryo is given a human soul at the moment of conception, right?

Right.

So, ignoring ethics and feasibility, if a scientist were to manipulate the genes of that zygote in such a way as to change it into a different species- say, a monkey- what would happen to the human soul that was originally there? Since the human cells would cease to exist, would the human soul leave the zygote, just like it would when the body dies? And since a monkey embryo would start developing, would a monkey’s soul take its place?

A lot of people are interested in ethics and feasibility. Regarding feasibility. Trying to change a human species into a different species would require working with 3 billion DNA base pairs, or letters, that make up the human genome. This translates into 20,000 to 25,000 human genes. link: genome.gov/18016863

Or what about a less extreme case- one that actually does happen- if an embryo were to start out as a male XY cell, but a mutation early on in development leads to the majority of the cells being female XO cells, would the soul be male or female? Since the zygote was a male XY cell, a living person, shouldn’t it be given a male soul? But if that is the case, as the embryo develops into a female, would that person have a male soul in a female body?

I am not sure about mutations occurring within the embryo. As for male souls and female souls, the spiritual rational soul at human conception is totally spiritual; therefore, there is no human female or human male distinction.

Perhaps this is a “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin” question, but I thought it might be worth a shot to see what other people think…

How many angels? That is a good description of the school I attended.
Seriously, as far as I know, there are many intense discussions about what may or may not happen in the future.

 

[GEddie]

The soul forms with and “in” the body. That holds whether the body cells are normal in genes, or not, or even, as seems in one Central American village, where the apparent gender of the body seems to change during development (the gender in fact does not change).

A person can never have the wrong body, because the soul has never known any other body!

ICXC NIKA

 

[John_Lazarus]

… “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin”…

As many as want to, but LEAVE ROOM FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT BETWEEN YOU! :tsktsk:

 

[GEddie]

For bodiless beings, it doesn’t matter whether it is a pinhead or your head; such beings take up no space.

Whether dancing is possible without limbs is another question.

ICXC NIKA

 

[primrose5891]

grannymh:

A lot of people are interested in ethics and feasibility. Regarding feasibility. Trying to change a human species into a different species would require working with 3 billion DNA base pairs, or letters, that make up the human genome. This translates into 20,000 to 25,000 human genes. link: genome.gov/18016863

What the OP suggested may never work, but human-animal chimeras already exist:

“An article last month in MIT Technology Review revealed that the work, directed at growing human organs for transplantation inside livestock, has resulted in human cells being injected into early animal embryos that have been gestated in sheep and pigs.”

“Imagine a cross between a human and a chimpanzee, if such a cross were possible. How would the newborn ‘humanzee’ be regarded?” Jones, to whom the Catholic Bishops of England and Wales refer questions on the topic, has written. “Would he be a child or a non-human animal? Should he go to special school? Should he be reared in a human environment? Should he be clothed?”

ncregister.com/daily-news/whats-wrong-with-humanized-mice-pig-men-and-humanzees/#ixzz3zInGg7Xk

 

[fisherman_carl]

If the soul is the form of the human body then it is a human soul, even if it has a mutation. What makes a human soul distinct from say an animal soul is that it is a rational soul. We have an intellect and a will. An analogy might be that the form of a triangle is to have 3 sides. Now, there may be many imperfect implementations of that triangle, but they are still triangles.

The distinguishing fact about human souls is that they are more than just the form of the body. God in fact creates each one as an immortal rational soul. The forms of triangles are one to one. That is the form and the implementation match completely. Whereas, in the case of humans it is not. The human mind is immaterial and there is nothing in the human body which corresponds to it. It in fact exists apart from the body. And, thus survives the death of the body.

 

[Gorgias]

Or what about a less extreme case- one that actually does happen- if an embryo were to start out as a male XY cell, but a mutation early on in development leads to the majority of the cells being female XO cells, would the soul be male or female?

You’re making the assumption that souls are gendered. Why?

(After all, if gender speaks to physical characteristics, and souls are spiritual (not material), why would we presume that souls have the attribute of ‘gender’?)

 

[Blue_Horizon]

From what I understand, a human life begins at conception, all living beings have souls, and a human embryo is given a human soul at the moment of conception, right?

So, ignoring ethics and feasibility, if a scientist were to manipulate the genes of that zygote in such a way as to change it into a different species- say, a monkey- what would happen to the human soul that was originally there? Since the human cells would cease to exist, would the human soul leave the zygote, just like it would when the body dies? And since a monkey embryo would start developing, would a monkey’s soul take its place?

Or what about a less extreme case- one that actually does happen- if an embryo were to start out as a male XY cell, but a mutation early on in development leads to the majority of the cells being female XO cells, would the soul be male or female? Since the zygote was a male XY cell, a living person, shouldn’t it be given a male soul? But if that is the case, as the embryo develops into a female, would that person have a male soul in a female body?

Perhaps this is a “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin” question, but I thought it might be worth a shot to see what other people think…

M I think you have too simplistic an appreciation of the soul.
Its influence is far more intertwined with matter than you appear to realise.
Precisely because it is the primal cause of the genes then if the genes are no longer human then the human soul has died. A bit like transubstantiation I suppose. If the bread is no longer discernible as bread then Jesus’s Real presence is no longer there.

A much more difficult question is what is going on when the fertilised egg starts dividing. If the cells are teased apart before 16 cells are formed then a twin will predictably form from each clump of cells.

So what happens when we manually separate this clump of 16 cells. Are we creating new souls? If so which is the original soul?
And what if we force the clump back together again one hour later and only one child is eventually born? What happened to the other souls? And is this soul the original soul.
Lots to think about.

Perhaps individuality and gender are not yet stable properties of the “soul” at the beginnings of life.
Perhaps the human soul itself is not infused until the zygote passes the 16 cell stage (what sort of soul is operating before this then?)?

 

[mariagoretti24]

You’re making the assumption that souls are gendered. Why?

(After all, if gender speaks to physical characteristics, and souls are spiritual (not material), why would we presume that souls have the attribute of ‘gender’?)

Well, it seems there must be something more than just the body that determines gender. The body isn’t always a reliable way to determine gender (eg. intersex conditions). What makes someone externally express one sex but internally feel they are a different one?

 

[mariagoretti24]

As many as want to, but LEAVE ROOM FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT BETWEEN YOU! :tsktsk:

 

[mariagoretti24]

A much more difficult question is what is going on when the fertilised egg starts dividing. If the cells are teased apart before 16 cells are formed then a twin will predictably form from each clump of cells.

So what happens when we manually separate this clump of 16 cells. Are we creating new souls? If so which is the original soul?
And what if we force the clump back together again one hour later and only one child is eventually born? What happened to the other souls? And is this soul the original soul.
Lots to think about.

Perhaps individuality and gender are not yet stable properties of the “soul” at the beginnings of life.
Perhaps the human soul itself is not infused until the zygote passes the 16 cell stage (what sort of soul is operating before this then?)?

Yes, I have wondered about this too… I guess this is getting into the realm of things we can’t know

 

[GEddie]

Well, it seems there must be something more than just the body that determines gender. The body isn’t always a reliable way to determine gender (eg. intersex conditions). What makes someone externally express one sex but internally feel they are a different one?

If the solid body should not be trusted as an indicator of gender, why should feelings be?

 

[mariagoretti24]

If the solid body should not be trusted as an indicator of gender, why should feelings be?

For the vast majority of cases, I believe the body can be trusted to indicate gender- and I think it takes something more than feelings to determine gender. I’m talking about the very small amount of cases where gender is ambiguous. Eg., Complete Androgen Insensitivity results in a person who is chromosomally male but appears to be female. And, there are a wide variety of other intersex conditions where a person has both male and female organs, and has a mixture of male and female cells.
There are cases where the doctors have to guess which sex to assign the child. Sometimes, despite having sex reassignment surgery, hormone replacement therapy, and being raised a certain gender, that person will know they were raised to be the wrong sex. Even without being told anything of their condition, they will know something is wrong. They won’t say “I feel like I am the opposite sex” they will say “I am the opposite sex”
So, with cases like those, it makes me think that there must be more that determines gender than the body.

 

[GEddie]

For the vast majority of cases, I believe the body can be trusted to indicate gender- and I think it takes something more than feelings to determine gender. I’m talking about the very small amount of cases where gender is ambiguous. Eg., Complete Androgen Insensitivity results in a person who is chromosomally male but appears to be female. And, there are a wide variety of other intersex conditions where a person has both male and female organs, and has a mixture of male and female cells.
There are cases where the doctors have to guess which sex to assign the child. Sometimes, despite having sex reassignment surgery, hormone replacement therapy, and being raised a certain gender, that person will know they were raised to be the wrong sex. Even without being told anything of their condition, they will know something is wrong. They won’t say “I feel like I am the opposite sex” they will say “I am the opposite sex”
So, with cases like those, it makes me think that there must be more that determines gender than the body.

In those situations, ISTM that at the very least, genetic testing (however much it costs) should be weighted at least as much as feelings when the gender does not jibe with the solid body.

ICXC NIKA

 

[hasantas]

If the soul is the form of the human body then it is a human soul, even if it has a mutation. What makes a human soul distinct from say an animal soul is that it is a rational soul. We have an intellect and a will. An analogy might be that the form of a triangle is to have 3 sides. Now, there may be many imperfect implementations of that triangle, but they are still triangles.

The distinguishing fact about human souls is that they are more than just the form of the body. God in fact creates each one as an immortal rational soul. The forms of triangles are one to one. That is the form and the implementation match completely. Whereas, in the case of humans it is not. The human mind is immaterial and there is nothing in the human body which corresponds to it. It in fact exists apart from the body. And, thus survives the death of the body.

Addition…

Body cannot change gender or race of soul. Human soul is human soul and animal soul is animal soul and body cannot change that. Indeed it is not possible such situation for soul. God create soul and God put soul into bodies. Soul may have experiences through body so soul can learn something. Body cannot live without soul but soul can live without body. The body dissolve after soul get out of it(death).

Mankind cannot create a cell from scratch but human can produce(cause) cell from another. Cells and all other acts occur through laws and God create laws. Human cannot change the essence of laws. If human cannot control materials and laws absolutely then how human could change soul which is out of matter?

I think it is impossible to change races of alives by mutation in DNA. There had not been transitions in forms and bodies of alives. The body of alive is a perfect system which cannot occur by evolution. So bodies cannot transform in others by evolution. If body cannot be changed then it is pointless to say that God will put souls in wrong bodies.

 

[aclausen]

Addition…

Body cannot change gender or race of soul. Human soul is human soul and animal soul is animal soul and body cannot change that. Indeed it is not possible such situation for soul. God create soul and God put soul into bodies. Soul may have experiences through body so soul can learn something. Body cannot live without soul but soul can live without body. The body dissolve after soul get out of it(death).

Mankind cannot create a cell from scratch but human can produce(cause) cell from another. Cells and all other acts occur through laws and God create laws. Human cannot change the essence of laws. If human cannot control materials and laws absolutely then how human could change soul which is out of matter?

I think it is impossible to change races of alives by mutation in DNA. There had not been transitions in forms and bodies of alives. The body of alive is a perfect system which cannot occur by evolution. So bodies cannot transform in others by evolution. If body cannot be changed then it is pointless to say that God will put souls in wrong bodies.

And when we do create a cell from scratch (we’ve come awfully close already), then what?

 

[GEddie]

And when we do create a cell from scratch (we’ve come awfully close already), then what?

I for one will worry about that when it happens; I doubt it’s as close as you think.

Life isn’t something that arises just by mixing the right organics together.

ICXC NIKA

 

[hasantas]

And when we do create a cell from scratch (we’ve come awfully close already), then what?

If someone can create a cell by composing atoms one by one then he can say what wish! I am interest in science and that do not seem possible not for close but for never. And that is not just concerning with put together atoms one by one but the most important key point is to animate body and give senses. There is no mind, life and other senses in energy and force. The source of senses is different.

And also do not forget that all things happen on the world which is in Solar system that in Milky Way and in universe. You see to create a cell you need an universe and it’s laws. What is the essence of laws for instance essence of force? From where did come all matter and energy?

 

[aclausen]

If someone can create a cell by composing atoms one by one then he can say what wish! I am interest in science and that do not seem possible not for close but for never. And that is not just concerning with put together atoms one by one but the most important key point is to animate body and give senses. There is no mind, life and other senses in energy and force. The source of senses is different.

And also do not forget that all things happen on the world which is in Solar system that in Milky Way and in universe. You see to create a cell you need an universe and it’s laws. What is the essence of laws for instance essence of force? From where did come all matter and energy?

This seems rather bizarre. Why would one need to assemble a cell an atom at a time? That’s not how cells assemble naturally.