Can God change?

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Oftentimes we see Catholic philosophers saying that God cannot change. But is it true that God cannot change? It seems to me that God does change.
For one example, God became angry with Solomon. Before God was not angry, but later on He was. 1Kings 11:9
God became angry with Balaam Numbers 22:20-22
God became angry and killed some young men Psalm 78:31
In Jonah 3:9-10 God changes His mind and did not bring on them the destruction He had threatened.
In Exodus 32:14 God changed His mind and did not bring disaster that He had threatened.
In Isaiah 57:6, God asks if He should relent.
In Jeremiah 15:6 , God says that He is tired of holding back and that He is going to destroy them.
and many more.
And in the New Testament, God came down from heaven and became man. Before that God was in heaven and was not man. But later, He came down from Heaven and became a man. That seems like a big change to me.
 
So I guess there’re 2 real choices. Either we’ve got God in handcuffs of His own making. Or we have God forgetting to check the future before planning out His day.

Or maybe we’ve just got a total misread on what and who God really is. I mean if you’re programming a video game and you’ve built in every response possible (and you’re a perfect programmer, so no mistakes), then is it you getting mad when your creations go ahead and do what they want outside of the easy and right parameters that would’ve given them a higher score? Or is it just disappointment that out of the many possible options you knew they could take they end up choosing a dud? I don’t know. Did He really change for that option? Or was that option maybe always one of the ones He had laid out as possible?

I mean for a guy who can do all things at once is it really changing for us to only see one of them?
 
Tomdstone said:
Oftentimes we see Catholic philosophers saying that God cannot change. But is it true that God cannot change? It seems to me that God does change.
For one example, God became angry with Solomon. Before God was not angry, but later on He was. 1Kings 11:9
God became angry with Balaam Numbers 22:20-22
God became angry and killed some young men Psalm 78:31
In Jonah 3:9-10 God changes His mind and did not bring on them the destruction He had threatened.
In Exodus 32:14 God changed His mind and did not bring disaster that He had threatened.
In Isaiah 57:6, God asks if He should relent.
In Jeremiah 15:6 , God says that He is tired of holding back and that He is going to destroy them.
and many more.
And in the New Testament, God came down from heaven and became man. Before that God was in heaven and was not man. But later, He came down from Heaven and became a man. That seems like a big change to me.
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Immutability

In God “there is no change, nor shadow of alteration” (James 1:17); “They * shall perish, but thou shalt continue: and they shall all grow old as a garment. And as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: but thou art the selfsame and thy years shall not fail” (Hebrews 1:10-12, Psalm 101:26-28. Cf. Malachi 3:6; Hebrews 13:8). These are some of the Scriptural texts which clearly teach Divine immutability or unchangeableness, and this attribute is likewise emphasized in church teaching, as by the Council of Nicaea against the Arians, who attributed mutability to the Logos (Denzinger, 54-old No. 18), and by the Vatican Council in its famous definition.

That the Divine nature is essentially immutable, or incapable of any internal change, is an obvious corollary from Divine infinity. Changeableness implies the capacity for increase or diminution of perfection, that is, it implies finiteness and imperfection. But God is infinitely perfect and is necessarily what He is. It is true that some attributes by which certain aspects of Divine perfection are described are hypothetical or relative, in the sense that they presuppose the contingent fact of creation: omnipresence, for example, presupposes the actual existence of spatial beings. But it is obvious that the mutability implied in this belongs to creatures, and not to the Creator; and it is a strange confusion of thought that has led some modern Theists — even professing Christians — to maintain that such attributes can be laid aside by God, and that the Logos in becoming incarnate actually did lay them aside, or at least ceased from their active exercise. But as creation itself did not affect the immutability of God, so neither did the incarnation of a Divine Person; whatever change was involved in either case took place solely in the created nature.

Toner, P. (1909). The Nature and Attributes of God. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm*
 
Trident_H said:
So I guess there’re 2 real choices. Either we’ve got God in handcuffs of His own making. Or we have God forgetting to check the future before planning out His day.

Or maybe we’ve just got a total misread on what and who God really is. I mean if you’re programming a video game and you’ve built in every response possible (and you’re a perfect programmer, so no mistakes), then is it you getting mad when your creations go ahead and do what they want outside of the easy and right parameters that would’ve given them a higher score? Or is it just disappointment that out of the many possible options you knew they could take they end up choosing a dud? I don’t know. Did He really change for that option? Or was that option maybe always one of the ones He had laid out as possible?

I mean for a guy who can do all things at once is it really changing for us to only see one of them?
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I don’t know exactly what you mean here, but it does seem from Holy Scripture that God has changed and that He does change. God gets angry, God changes His mind, God relents, God answers our prayers, God forgives us and God comes down from Heaven and becomes man.
I don’t see how it can be claimed that God does not change?
 
Vico said:
That the Divine nature is essentially immutable, or incapable of any internal change, is an obvious corollary from Divine infinity.
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Right. This is what the Catholic philosophers say. But i don’t understand it because God came down from heaven and became man. That seems like an obvious change to me. Before the Incarnation God did not assume a human form. However, later on God came down from heaven and became man. Further Holy Scripture describes how God has changed in various other ways. The very fact that God came down from heaven indicates a change.
 
Tomdstone said:
I don’t know exactly what you mean here, but it does seem from Holy Scripture that God has changed and that He does change. God gets angry, God changes His mind, God relents, God answers our prayers, God forgives us and God comes down from Heaven and becomes man.
I don’t see how it can be claimed that God does not change?
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From our point of view the sun rises and sets too. But it doesn’t move like that does it? So I’m just saying look harder. Look from another angle. Because sometimes what we’re missing in understanding is just what we’re missing from the wrong perspective.
 
Tomdstone said:
Right. This is what the Catholic philosophers say. But i don’t understand it because God came down from heaven and became man. That seems like an obvious change to me. Before the Incarnation God did not assume a human form. However, later on God came down from heaven and became man. Further Holy Scripture describes how God has changed in various other ways. The very fact that God came down from heaven indicates a change.
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You did not understand this? “But as creation itself did not affect the immutability of God, so neither did the incarnation of a Divine Person; whatever change was involved in either case took place solely in the created nature.”
 
Vico said:
“But as creation itself did not affect the immutability of God, so neither did the incarnation of a Divine Person; whatever change was involved in either case took place solely in the created nature.”
Click to expand...
As i read it, this philosophical belief directly contradicts the fact that God came down from heaven and God became man.
Further, it is documented in Scripture that God changed His mind.
 
God’s personality and morality never change. Once God declares that something is right or wrong, it always remains that way. But God does allow mankind to make laws and those laws can change. For instance, Jesus told us that Moses allowed people to divorce, but that was not God’s choosing and not how he intended it to be.

God does change in that his responses change to people or situations depending on people’s actions. This can be seen in the parable Jesus gave us regarding the tenants of the vineyard in Matthew chapter 20. God sent his servant, but the people killed him. So God sent another servant who was also killed, so finally God responded and sent his son. All of this shows God’s changing and responding to mankind.

So God can get angry and then relent. If this were not so, God would not have a forgiving nature and would not recognize anyone’s repentance. So God is always loving toward his creation, but his actions change according to his creations’ response.
 
Tomdstone said:
As i read it, this philosophical belief directly contradicts the fact that God came down from heaven and God became man.
Further, it is documented in Scripture that God changed His mind.
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Vatican I, Chapter 1:
2. Since he is one, singular, completely simple and unchangeable spiritual substance, he must be declared to be in reality and in essence, distinct from the world, supremely happy in himself and from himself, and inexpressibly loftier than anything besides himself which either exists or can be imagined.
 
I don’t see how God exists entirely outside of time. Since God came down from heaven and became man on earth, He must exist at least partially in time. Further, God responds to our prayers.
“It is very likely that our deceased loved ones, like us, will spend some time in Purgatory. If a soul does not reach the kind of holiness needed to enter Heaven in his or her lifetime, he or she will need to reach that holiness in Purgatory. It takes just as long to reach holiness in Purgatory as it does here on earth. Therefore, souls can spend several decades in Purgatory as they are slowly purified. You and I have the power to speed up that transition. We can help to move a loved one upward and out of Purgatory more quickly by praying for them. You see, the souls in Purgatory cannot pray for themselves. We have to pray for and offer Masses for our deceased family members so that they will be able to move upward and out of Purgatory much more quickly.”
holyspirithsv.com/?page_id=276
So God will respond to our prayers for our loved ones in Purgatory. As God hears our prayers, He may respond by changing and lightening the sentence of a soul in Purgatory.
 
I disagree that Holy Scripture is completely wrong. IMHO, Holy Scripture is the word of God which does not deceive. Holy Scripture documents the fact that God has changed His mind. Even the creed said at Mass documents the fact that God became man, where before He was not man.
 
First you say that God exists entirely outside of time, then you say that God entered time. Which is it?
Also, does God respond to our prayers? And does He change the sentence of a soul in Purgatory if we pray hard enough?
Does Holy Scripture tell us that God changed His mind?
 
Tomdstone said:
First you say that God exists entirely outside of time, then you say that God entered time. Which is it?
Also, does God respond to our prayers? And does He change the sentence of a soul in Purgatory if we pray hard enough?
Does Holy Scripture tell us that God changed His mind?
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Focus, my friend. You’re branching into a few different arguments here. 🙂
1: God exists out of time, because He is God. That said, since He is all powerful, it makes total sense for Him to be able to enter into time, the “now” “then”, if you will. So it’s really both. How DOES He do this? He’s God; how am I supposed to know? 😉 That’s the part where faith comes in.
2: God does respond to our prayers; sometimes we hear or see His response, sometimes He answers us by simply answering the prayer. (name removed by moderator) is more accurate here, I think. Again, I’m not an expert! 🙂 I do know that He’s not a vending machine; He answers us in ways that are not always what we want, but He does hear us and, I believe, responds in varying ways.
3: I believe that’s the way it works; that our prayers give the souls in purgatory more grace than they had before, which shortens their sentence. BUT, I am not an expert in this field, I could be wrong. 🙂
4: The Holy Scriptures tell us about God, but not everything about Him. Again, FAITH.

I don’t know if God changes. I would say we have no basis to compare it to. As in, we can’t know what He is actually or originally like, so how are we supposed to know if He changed from that? He made us in His image, and we change our minds without technically changing ourselves all the time. On the other hand, we cannot put human restraints and boundaries on God. Therefore, it’s not a question of “Can God change”, it’s “What is change?” Are we talking about a radical shift from one mentality and personality to another, one which was not there before, or are we talking about getting angry and then calming down? IMOHO, God can do whatever the heck He wants to, and I have no right to claim I know if His decisions (like you said, striking down biblical figures and such) signify how He just works, or if it’s recognizable “change”.

I hope this helps. 🙂
 
If a person is in time, then that person cannot be entirely outside of time.
If God gives a soul a sentence to spend in purgatory, and then responds to our prayers by shortening this sentence in purgatory, He has changed the sentence of the soul in purgatory on the basis of our prayers and indulgences applied to the soul in purgatory.
 
The one true God is three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is not appropriate to reduce God to a concept.
 
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