Can God deceive, or does that contradict His very Nature?

[Upgrade25]

Struggling with the idea of a deceiver God.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

God cannot deceive. Just like how we pray in the Act of Faith, "…I believe these and all the truths which the Holy Catholic Church teaches, because Thou hast revealed them, who canst neither deceive nor be deceived.

 

[mikekle]

Well, IDK, he said he would send a delusion (deception) to mankind and the church in the end times, but his reason for doing so is for the greater good, so…??

**2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
**

 

[dmar198]

Well, IDK, he said he would send a delusion (deception) to mankind and the church in the end times, but his reason for doing so is for the greater good, so…??

**2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
**

That verse doesn’t say that God deceives. The previous 2 verses say that Satan is the one who deceives, God merely permits it for a greater good. God doesn’t Want people to be deluded, but He sends them a delusion by way of permission: He permits Satan to deceive people. He permits Satan to deceive people because if He blocked that He would be blocking free will.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

That verse doesn’t say that God deceives. The previous 2 verses say that Satan is the one who deceives, God merely permits it for a greater good. God doesn’t Want people to be deluded, but He sends them a delusion by way of permission: He permits Satan to deceive people. He permits Satan to deceive people because if He blocked that He would be blocking free will.

I would argue that God deceived Abraham when commanded Isaac’s sacrifice.

 

[Upgrade25]

You have to understand guys, the deceiver model shakes my faith in every other aspect of God. If He isn’t telling the truth, then…

As for Abraham, any takers?

 

[Gregory_Olson]

We need a definition of deceive… To deceive is to cause someone to believe something that isn’t true; as someone already said, this is an action that is incompatible with the nature of God.
I think drawing a distinction between to deceive and to misunderstand is the key to answering your question. To misunderstand is human–we misunderstand everyone, including the Word of God. God might even expect us to misunderstand–we’re not omniscient, and not accounting for all the relevant facts can play a role in misunderstanding. In this case, however, we’re still the source of the misunderstanding; God does not cause it.

God did command Abraham to sacrifice his son, and Abraham had every intention of obeying him.
The belief that Isaac will be sacrificed is not a necessary part of this, however. I can imagine Abraham intending to sacrifice Isaac and yet not being sure about whether God would allow him to go through with it. Of course, anyone can say that in retrospection…
But we’re looking at what God did, not Abraham. God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son, and caused Abraham to take his son to be sacrificed. It’s not demonstrable that God caused Abraham to believe any information here at all, false or otherwise. Well, other than that there is a land called Moriah with hills. If God had said “You will sacrifice your son” it would be a different matter, but all he said was “Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There offer him up as a burnt offering on one of the heights that I will point out to you.” Oh, and God also caused Abraham to believe that he would point out a specific hill to him. No belief about Isaac, however, is necessary from this command.

 

[pianistclare]

God does not deceive in the way you are thinking.
No.

 

[Upgrade25]

•Could God have just created us for sick pleasure, using Israel as a pawn and even taking deception as far as the cross?

•How does God’s nature prevent Him from deceiving?

•Are there any sound metaphysical or philosophical arguments to the contrary of premise one?

I know, I have a weak faith. Weaker than most everyone else’s. I’m going to see a priest soon, but I’m wondering if I can get some closure here first. I’m not a troll, I’m a kid looking for answers. If you look at my previous posts you will know that.

 

[Simca]

One of my favorite verses in the Bible is Numbers 23:19, which says “God is not a man that he should lie.”

I don’t think God lies to or deceives anyone, but he allows those who refuse to believe in him to go on believing what they’ve chosen to. In this way, even though God has tried, they themselves have chosen the deception.

In regards to 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, there is a preamble to God sending a deceiving spirit to the people: the people had already refused to believe God–there was already an open rebellion in progress.

" [3 ]Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. [4 ]He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

[9 ]The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, [10] and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. [11] For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie [12] and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. "
(bolding is mine)

Neither does the story of Abraham show God as a deceiver. Through this depiction, God wishes to show us that even though we should sacrifice all we have, it is only by God’s provision of the sacrifice himself (his son Jesus), will we be able to obtain forgiveness and ultimately salvation. God told Abraham, “I myself will provide the sacrifice”—and he did. It was prophetic.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

We need a definition of deceive… To deceive is to cause someone to believe something that isn’t true; as someone already said, this is an action that is incompatible with the nature of God.

God did command Abraham to sacrifice his son, and Abraham had every intention of obeying him.

God, through his command, caused Abraham to believe that God wanted Isaac sacrificed. God did not actually want Isaac sacrificed. Therefore, God decieved Abraham.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

No. God does not deceive.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Neither does the story of Abraham show God as a deceiver. Through this depiction, God wishes to show us that even though we should sacrifice all we have, it is only by God’s provision of the sacrifice himself (his son Jesus), will we be able to obtain forgiveness and ultimately salvation. God told Abraham, “I myself will provide the sacrifice”—and he did. It was prophetic.

God said no such thing, unless you’re reading from a version of Genesis I’m unaware of.

Genesis 22:1-2

After these things God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” He said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”

 

[Simca]

God said no such thing, unless you’re reading from a version of Genesis I’m unaware of.

Genesis 22:1-2

You’re right. I was thinking of when Abraham told Isaac that God would provide the lamb for the sacrifice. That’s the part that’s seen as prophetic about Christ.

It’s notable that the author of Hebrews says that God was testing Abraham’s faith. (not deceiving him)
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. By faith, Abraham offered Isaac during his testing, and laid his only son on the altar, whom he had received by The Promise.
(translation from The Aramaic Bible in Plain English)

 

[Charlemagne_III]

What reason would God have to deceive?

We know the devil has plenty of reasons since Jesus called him the Father of Lies.

 

[ffg]

If God loves perfectly, which as God, that’s the only option (perfection), then he never deceives because love doesn’t deceive.

Everything God does or says is true as He would be the source of truth.

Truth can’t deceive, it’s true!

Take care,

Mike

 

[JapaneseKappa]

You’re right. I was thinking of when Abraham told Isaac that God would provide the lamb for the sacrifice. That’s the part that’s seen as prophetic about Christ.

It’s notable that the author of Hebrews says that God was testing Abraham’s faith. (not deceiving him)
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. By faith, Abraham offered Isaac during his testing, and laid his only son on the altar, whom he had received by The Promise.
(translation from The Aramaic Bible in Plain English)

The other interpretation is the Islamic one, where we must submit to God’s commands regardless of whether or not we understand them. Who are we to judge the goodness of God’s plans? If God commands us to do things that seem evil or wrong, we must do our best anyway, after all we don’t know if he is just testing us or not.

 

[ericc]

I would argue that God deceived Abraham when commanded Isaac’s sacrifice.

Please argue. How does that translate to deceit? A test of character or obedience is vastly different from deceit.There was nothing that God said that was a falsehood presented as truth.

God’s instructions summarized :

1. Do it
2. Don’t do it.

I have not heard of any logic that say a subsequent abrogation is deemed as deceit, ever.

 

[cornbread_r2]

With props to the original presenter, Candide West.

If the Miracle of the Sun actually occurred, then it would seem that either the people who saw the Sun dance at Fatima were deceived or the rest of the people in the world who didn’t see it dance were deceived (because the Sun can’t both dance and not dance at the same time).

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Please argue. How does that translate to deceit? A test of character or obedience is vastly different from deceit.There was nothing that God said that was a falsehood presented as truth.

God’s instructions summarized :

1. Do it
2. Don’t do it.

I have not heard of any logic that say a subsequent abrogation is deemed as deceit, ever.

God, through his command, caused Abraham to believe that God wanted Isaac sacrificed. God did not actually want Isaac sacrificed. Therefore, God decieved Abraham.

Do you think that God is changeable, so that he would ever actually change his mind about something?