Can we judge God's actions or lack thereof by any but our human standards?

[laocmo]

We are constantly told we cannot judge God by human standards. It was previously asked if God could be considered a good parent, and really loves us? The evidence, by our standards, seems to show otherwise. A few examples:

A good parent would never let his children kill each other in endless wars throughout the centuries. He would find a way to correct that situation.

A good parent would never let half his children starve to death by placing them in drought and disease infested regions of the world like Northern Africa.

A good parent would have a loving intimate real time relationship with his children. He would not separate himself from them for centuries to the point that a good many of them would even doubt his existence.

A good parent would not make a list of his children’s natural tendencies, faults, and weaknesses, then make a list of things they must never do involving those weaknesses. Things like their sexual drive, the instinct of self preservation, etc.

In my opinion God fails on all the marks of a good parent as accepted by us humans. To justify this we are told we cannot judge him by human standards. We are humans. We must judge everything and everybody by the only standards that we have, That is human standards.

We are told he loves us. What’s the proof? It is certainly not in the way he allows us to interact with each other. He sent his son to die for our sins? That seems to be a rather bronze age barbaric idea. What kind of sick mind would find satisfaction in seeing its son suffer terrible pains just to satisfy its need to erase human sins. He could have done that with a simple mental decision, or a wave of his hand.

To me it is becoming more and more plausible that such a creature as our commonly accepted God does not even exist. There may be some kind of a God that exists out there. But, with the help of centuries of theologians, we have created one in our minds that defies all logic. Try this thought experiment sometime. Pretend that your God really does not exist. Then ask yourself if the world around you with all the eons of its turmoil and problems might make more sense with him out of the picture.

 

[paduard]

We are constantly told we cannot judge God by human standards. It was previously asked if God could be considered a good parent, and really loves us? The evidence, by our standards, seems to show otherwise. A few examples:

A good parent would never let his children kill each other in endless wars throughout the centuries. He would find a way to correct that situation.

A good parent would never let half his children starve to death by placing them in drought and disease infested regions of the world like Northern Africa.

A good parent would have a loving intimate real time relationship with his children. He would not separate himself from them for centuries to the point that a good many of them would even doubt his existence.

A good parent would not make a list of his children’s natural tendencies, faults, and weaknesses, then make a list of things they must never do involving those weaknesses. Things like their sexual drive, the instinct of self preservation, etc.

In my opinion God fails on all the marks of a good parent as accepted by us humans. To justify this we are told we cannot judge him by human standards. We are humans. We must judge everything and everybody by the only standards that we have, That is human standards.

We are told he loves us. What’s the proof? It is certainly not in the way he allows us to interact with each other. He sent his son to die for our sins? That seems to be a rather bronze age barbaric idea. What kind of sick mind would find satisfaction in seeing its son suffer terrible pains just to satisfy its need to erase human sins. He could have done that with a simple mental decision, or a wave of his hand.

To me it is becoming more and more plausible that such a creature as our commonly accepted God does not even exist. There may be some kind of a God that exists out there. But, with the help of centuries of theologians, we have created one in our minds that defies all logic. Try this thought experiment sometime. Pretend that your God really does not exist. Then ask yourself if the world around you with all the eons of its turmoil and problems might make more sense with him out of the picture.

Most, if not all of this, is pure nonsense in my opinion.

Jesus is reported as saying that ‘only God is Good’. Reflect on the simplicity of that!

paduard

 

[laocmo]

Most, if not all of this, is pure nonsense in my opinion.

Jesus is reported as saying that ‘only God is Good’. Reflect on the simplicity of that!

paduard

I would enjoy reading your refutation for each of the above facts. As we got older and had our own families we learned good parenting skills. A little study of how God interacts with us, his children, over the years shows he demonstrates a complete lack of the skills considered essential for a good parent. It seems either he does not really consider us his children as the nuns taught us, or as a worse case scenario, he doesn’t exist.

 

[Solmyr]

We are constantly told we cannot judge God by human standards.

I would like to make a minor correction. We do not judge “God”, we judge what some people SAY about God.

I would enjoy reading your refutation for each of the above facts.

It will never happen.

 

[Della]

The answer to all your posed questions is original sin.

God didn’t create any of the scenarios you listed. He didn’t “put” people in drought stricken areas, for example. It’s their home and been their home for centuries. The answer is we do as God commanded and we aid them in their sufferings. It’s the same with all the other problems mankind has inflicted on himself. We are to blame for us killing each other because we are wounded by original sin. Most people either deny this truth or they ignore it so they can go on living as they please with no thought for the consequences. The burden lies on our shoulders since we rejected God and his commandments.

How did God show us his love for us? Never seen a crucifix? What more should he have done without violating our free will to do as we please? Are we merely puppets? Is that how you see yourself? As a mere puppet without a brain or a conscience? How can God be to blame for our sins and failings when he has told us what we need to do to remedy things and we simply don’t do it?

 

[Solmyr]

What more should he have done without violating our free will to do as we please?

To allow UNLIMITED freedom to do as one pleases is the ultimate sign of NON-CARING. No loving parent would allow a child to have free access to a loaded weapon and allow him to “play” with it.

The original sin and the reference to “free will” is the worst defense for the problem of evil. And even if one accepts the notion of original sin, it would not exonerate God. The alleged disobedience only made God angry and he cursed his own creation. If, of course there is anything factual in that myth.

Of course I do not speak about God, I only refer to what SOME people SAY about God.

 

[laocmo]

The original sin and the reference to “free will” is the worst defense for the problem of evil. And even if one accepts the notion of original sin, it would not exonerate God.

Well stated! Why can’t they understand??

 

[mikekle]

YOu are all forgetting the bible tells us directly that Gods ways are not our ways…that explains everything imo, while all those things the OP mentioned may seem to us to be wrong or even evil, our ways are not Gods ways.

 

[Della]

To allow UNLIMITED freedom to do as one pleases is the ultimate sign of NON-CARING. No loving parent would allow a child to have free access to a loaded weapon and allow him to “play” with it.

You assume that we aren’t adults, but merely children. When people decide, of their own free will, to do evil they have no one to blame but themselves. Try your defense in a murder case and see how far it gets you. If we aren’t responsible for our own actions we are merely puppets, which we aren’t.

The original sin and the reference to “free will” is the worst defense for the problem of evil. And even if one accepts the notion of original sin, it would not exonerate God. The alleged disobedience only made God angry and he cursed his own creation. If, of course there is anything factual in that myth.

No, it didn’t make God “angry” it made him sad. An angry god would have destroyed our first parents instead of making them pay for their disobedience by casting them into the world to fend for themselves–making them learn from their sin opposed to remaining in Eden with everything provided for them. They rejected God’s care of them, so God, in effect told them to do as they pleased, but if they did as they pleased there would be consequences. A good parent doesn’t coddle his children, he teaches them lessons when they do wrong in the hopes that they’ll learn to do right. God also promised that a descendant of theirs would crush the devil who had tempted them, so the devil didn’t get off scot free, either. We have to pay the earthly consequences for our actions, but we don’t have to pay the eternal ones–unless we want to.

Of course I do not speak about God, I only refer to what SOME people SAY about God.

That’s good, but what “some people” say about God isn’t always right. And by the way, neither are you in what you say about God. And laocmo, I do “get it” I simply reject it because it’s a false premise based on ignorance.

 

[meltzerboy]

We are constantly told we cannot judge God by human standards. It was previously asked if God could be considered a good parent, and really loves us? The evidence, by our standards, seems to show otherwise. A few examples:

A good parent would never let his children kill each other in endless wars throughout the centuries. He would find a way to correct that situation.

A good parent would never let half his children starve to death by placing them in drought and disease infested regions of the world like Northern Africa.

A good parent would have a loving intimate real time relationship with his children. He would not separate himself from them for centuries to the point that a good many of them would even doubt his existence.

A good parent would not make a list of his children’s natural tendencies, faults, and weaknesses, then make a list of things they must never do involving those weaknesses. Things like their sexual drive, the instinct of self preservation, etc.

In my opinion God fails on all the marks of a good parent as accepted by us humans. To justify this we are told we cannot judge him by human standards. We are humans. We must judge everything and everybody by the only standards that we have, That is human standards.

We are told he loves us. What’s the proof? It is certainly not in the way he allows us to interact with each other. He sent his son to die for our sins? That seems to be a rather bronze age barbaric idea. What kind of sick mind would find satisfaction in seeing its son suffer terrible pains just to satisfy its need to erase human sins. He could have done that with a simple mental decision, or a wave of his hand.

To me it is becoming more and more plausible that such a creature as our commonly accepted God does not even exist. There may be some kind of a God that exists out there. But, with the help of centuries of theologians, we have created one in our minds that defies all logic. Try this thought experiment sometime. Pretend that your God really does not exist. Then ask yourself if the world around you with all the eons of its turmoil and problems might make more sense with him out of the picture.

This seems to me a strange argument for one who identifies as Catholic!

In G-d’s defense, I would liken Him to a parent who disciplines his child. The child may not realize much of the time that the discipline is necessary to make him stronger and better able to cope with life when he grows up. He may even believe his parent does not care about him or love him, yet nothing is further from the truth.

Of course there are hardships we go through, some of them very painful indeed. It is difficult to explain all the pain and suffering in the world and the fact it never lets up. However, using your parent-child analogy again, just as a child is often unable to understand why he suffers despite his parent’s love for him, so we as adults cannot fully comprehend how G-d can allow us to suffer if He truly loves us. One day, however, we will find out and understand.

 

[Solmyr]

You assume that we aren’t adults, but merely children.

Compared to God we do not even qualify to be called children. If a creator does not “build in” safeguards against unplanned and unwanted behavior of his created beings, then he bears the sole responsibility for anything and everything the created beings do. It is funny, though, that the parent/child metaphor is frequently used by the apologists, but as soon as the error is pointed out, you abandon it. Can’t have both ways.

When people decide, of their own free will, to do evil they have no one to blame but themselves. Try your defense in a murder case and see how far it gets you. If we aren’t responsible for our own actions we are merely puppets, which we aren’t.

Try that defense when someone could have prevented a terrorist attack, but did not. No one will accept that “I did not want to prevent the attack, because it would have interfered with the terrorist’s free will”. Free will is not desirable if it leads to something that the creator does not want. By the way, LIMITING the freedom of certain actions does NOT turn us into puppets. That is yet another incorrect argument presented by apologists.

No, it didn’t make God “angry” it made him sad.

Did God not “curse” his creation? I am willing to accept that the whole Genesis is just a myth, but you cannot cherry-pick which part is factual and which part is allegorical if you cannot present some rational argument for this distinction.

That’s good, but what “some people” say about God isn’t always right. And by the way, neither are you in what you say about God.

Hold it… I never say anything about God. I never claimed or will claim that I am infallible, so my criticism of the apologists can be incorrect. I am always open to be criticized with logical and rational arguments. So far it did not happen.

 

[o_mlly]

We are constantly told we cannot judge God by human standards. It was previously asked if God could be considered a good parent, and really loves us? The evidence, by our standards, seems to show otherwise. A few examples:
laocmo;13914470:

A good parent would never let his children kill each other in endless wars throughout the centuries. He would find a way to correct that situation.

He does. He sends you. What are you doing or have you done to stop the killing? (Rhetorical question.)

A good parent would never let half his children starve to death by placing them in drought and disease infested regions of the world like Northern Africa.

He does. He sends you. What are you doing or have you done to stop the hunger? (Rhetorical question.)

A good parent would have a loving intimate real time relationship with his children. He would not separate himself from them for centuries to the point that a good many of them would even doubt his existence.

Nonsense.

A good parent would not make a list of his children’s natural tendencies, faults, and weaknesses, then make a list of things they must never do involving those weaknesses. Things like their sexual drive, the instinct of self preservation, etc.

Our drives are natural when ordered to their proper ends and only disordered when not.

 

[ffg]

God does His acts, we do ours.

What I can observe are the efforts of man.

What’s obvious to me is when God is respected, you have peace.

When not, you don’t have peace, you have chaos, confusion.

Where change happens, peace comes with respect and goes when respect goes.

With your laundry list in the first post there, what is the foundation of the flip side if not from God? (Teaching good, doing good, feeding the hungry, etc.)

Take care,

Mike

 

[pianistclare]

yup.
I also wonder what God has done to the OP to make him so angry and to lash out at God.


No bueno.

 

[Della]

Compared to God we do not even qualify to be called children. If a creator does not “build in” safeguards against unplanned and unwanted behavior of his created beings, then he bears the sole responsibility for anything and everything the created beings do. It is funny, though, that the parent/child metaphor is frequently used by the apologists, but as soon as the error is pointed out, you abandon it. Can’t have both ways.

Apparently you don’t see that, once again, you are making God into a puppet master and we into mere puppets. If we had “built in” inhibiters against making choices, we couldn’t make the choice to love God or not. Love must be freely shared or it is not love, it is coercion. I never use the parent/child metaphor because it is a poor one, since God is not a human father and we are not his direct offspring (there’s only on of those), but rather creatures whom he loves as a father his children in that his love is unconditional–that’s where the analogy ends, though. He never stops loving us even if we reject him and choose hell, you see.

Try that defense when someone could have prevented a terrorist attack, but did not. No one will accept that “I did not want to prevent the attack, because it would have interfered with the terrorist’s free will”. Free will is not desirable if it leads to something that the creator does not want. By the way, LIMITING the freedom of certain actions does NOT turn us into puppets. That is yet another incorrect argument presented by apologists.

It’s not the same thing, at all. If someone commits a crime he must pay the penalty. Planning on committing a crime is only a crime if the person intends to carry it out, and even then, it was his choice to make. No one, certainly not God, forced him into it.

Did God not “curse” his creation? I am willing to accept that the whole Genesis is just a myth, but you cannot cherry-pick which part is factual and which part is allegorical if you cannot present some rational argument for this distinction.

To curse something is, in theology, to pronounce the consequences of a sinful action. It’s not a punishment in the sense that it cannot be remedied if one avoids the sin. I’m afraid you are only showing your ignorance of theology here, my friend. Allegory, metaphor, and mythology are all literary forms of communication. They say nothing at all about the factualness of the material being presented. I do wish people would stop misusing those words because it would save a lot of back and forward over nothing. The Church, which is the guardian of scriptural truth, knows very well what is factual and what isn’t in Genesis as well as the rest of Scripture, so we can have confidence in it.

Hold it… I never say anything about God. I never claimed or will claim that I am infallible, so my criticism of the apologists can be incorrect. I am always open to be criticized with logical and rational arguments. So far it did not happen.

Okay, but you certainly made a lot of statements about God in your post. As for criticism, well many people react emotionally rather than rationally to that which is dear to their hearts. For many it’s like attacking their mother. And perhaps you are used to dealing with Evangelicals who, bless 'em, tend to lean a little too heavily on personal experience in such matters. The Church doesn’t do that, though, and no Catholic apologist worth his salt does, either.

Apologetics isn’t just a form of debate for Catholics, it’s a ministry/apostolate in which we endeavor to lay out the truths of the Catholic faith in ways others can relate to. It varies from person to person, of course, for not all people need/want the same information or the same approach. Knowing what the person needs can be difficult, especially when one can only communicate via a discussion forum.

Catholicism teaches that reason is just as important as faith, however we see it as faith informing reason rather than the other way around because the truths of the faith are revelatory truths not scientific ones.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

yup.
I also wonder what God has done to the OP to make him so angry and to lash out at God.


No bueno.

Not really a fair assessment there of the OP. Please read the book of Job.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

When a parent refuses a request from their children for a juice box. One child may say, “okay”, another may say, “aww, why not?”, yet another child may say, “you don’t love me! I want my juice box!”.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

We are constantly told we cannot judge God by human standards. It was previously asked if God could be considered a good parent, and really loves us? The evidence, by our standards, seems to show otherwise. A few examples:

A good parent would never let his children kill each other in endless wars throughout the centuries. He would find a way to correct that situation.

A good parent would never let half his children starve to death by placing them in drought and disease infested regions of the world like Northern Africa.

A good parent would have a loving intimate real time relationship with his children. He would not separate himself from them for centuries to the point that a good many of them would even doubt his existence.

A good parent would not make a list of his children’s natural tendencies, faults, and weaknesses, then make a list of things they must never do involving those weaknesses. Things like their sexual drive, the instinct of self preservation, etc.

In my opinion God fails on all the marks of a good parent as accepted by us humans. To justify this we are told we cannot judge him by human standards. We are humans. We must judge everything and everybody by the only standards that we have, That is human standards.

We are told he loves us. What’s the proof? It is certainly not in the way he allows us to interact with each other. He sent his son to die for our sins? That seems to be a rather bronze age barbaric idea. What kind of sick mind would find satisfaction in seeing its son suffer terrible pains just to satisfy its need to erase human sins. He could have done that with a simple mental decision, or a wave of his hand.

To me it is becoming more and more plausible that such a creature as our commonly accepted God does not even exist. There may be some kind of a God that exists out there. But, with the help of centuries of theologians, we have created one in our minds that defies all logic. Try this thought experiment sometime. Pretend that your God really does not exist. Then ask yourself if the world around you with all the eons of its turmoil and problems might make more sense with him out of the picture.

OP,

We live in a fallen world. I don’t like it either. It hurts. a lot.

I was just going to say some of your attributes that you placed on God sound more of some teaching about God a narcissist placed on your shoulders, but I don’t know. Its very easy to make God look like a villain- actually, its easy to make anyone look like a villain if you don’t’ know much about them or understand them.

Please let me remind you… if there is such a thing as evil in this world, there HAS to be such thing as its opposite. Everything else is meaningless, and meaningless is not a real option when such a thing as something being meaningful exists!

All I can say is keep searching. I don’t diss any of your remarks at all, they are all very good and fine to feel and express. Just keep seeking God.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

When a parent refuses a request from their children for a juice box. One child may say, “okay”, another may say, “aww, why not?”, yet another child may say, “you don’t love me! I want my juice box!”.

Or a child could be heartbroken and confused as to why the juice box wasn’t given, and remain quiet, thinking they aren’t loved. I can think of other possibilities and psychological scenarios to the example you gave here. Just adding that for comprehension.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Or a child could be heartbroken and confused as to why the juice box wasn’t given, and remain quiet, thinking they aren’t loved. I can think of other possibilities and psychological scenarios to the example you gave here. Just adding that for comprehension.

A good parent knows their child’s heart. Each decision a good parent makes considers each child and their ability to absorb the consequences of said decision. Alas, God doesn’t make mistakes but even the best parents do.