Can we know who God is with our reason?

[johnnyt3000]

If we can know there is a God by using reason, can we also know who God is by reason as well? I understand that we only believe in the Trinity because it has been divinely revealed to us, thus we know the Trinity by faith. At the same time, is it possible to know any attributes of God by reason? Or is every attribute of God (besides His existence) a matter of faith?

 

[LethalMouse]

Kind of funny I was having a convo with someone about this in a way.

My reason allows me to feel as though I know who God is, but simultaneously always have the question or if He is.

My friend on the other hand feels for sure there is, but not able to reason who.

So I would say possible, but always subject to human abilitues and such in one form or another.

 

[SilverShadow22]

Reason tells me God IS. Logically, I accept all the Holy Mother Church proposes for our belief. I’ve been thoroughly taught my religion and everything makes sense with everything else. Ergo, rational acceptance.

Reason tells me WHO God is – at least, the religion I have learned and accepted tells me who I ought to know Him as.

But I never experienced Him as this. He is simply a collection of descriptions. Therefore, I serve without any motivation besides rational conviction – it is so, thus I obey.

My friend here possess the other half. He knows WHO God is, IF He is. I have no if… he has the who… we keep talking… and both of us may just get both.

 

[johnnyt3000]

Reason tells me God IS. Logically, I accept all the Holy Mother Church proposes for our belief. I’ve been thoroughly taught my religion and everything makes sense with everything else. Ergo, rational acceptance.

Reason tells me WHO God is – at least, the religion I have learned and accepted tells me who I ought to know Him as.

But I never experienced Him as this. He is simply a collection of descriptions. Therefore, I serve without any motivation besides rational conviction – it is so, thus I obey.

My friend here possess the other half. He knows WHO God is, IF He is. I have no if… he has the who… we keep talking… and both of us may just get both.

In other words, you rationally accept the theological teachings of the Church?

 

[SilverShadow22]

Yes

 

[JurisPrudens]

If we can know there is a God by using reason, can we also know who God is by reason as well? I understand that we only believe in the Trinity because it has been divinely revealed to us, thus we know the Trinity by faith. At the same time, is it possible to know any attributes of God by reason? Or is every attribute of God (besides His existence) a matter of faith?

Well, so far as I can remember, the first books of St. Thomas’s Summa theologiae are dedicated to exactly this question: who God is and what are His attributes. The doctrine of Trinity included. Using pure reason. So, You should check it.

 

[Tomdstone]

If we can know there is a God by using reason, can we also know who God is by reason as well? I understand that we only believe in the Trinity because it has been divinely revealed to us, thus we know the Trinity by faith. At the same time, is it possible to know any attributes of God by reason? Or is every attribute of God (besides His existence) a matter of faith?

It is possible to know somethings, but others I don’t know. For example, Catholic theologians say that God cannot change, but Holy Scripture tells us that God does change His mind and that He gets angry. Further, God responds to our prayers. Originally someone is sent to Purgatory for a certain length of time. Then his relatives on earth offer Masses and rosaries for his soul. In many cases, God will change the sentence of the person in Purgatory and allow him to enter heaven sooner.

 

[LittleFlower378]

If we can know there is a God by using reason, can we also know who God is by reason as well? I understand that we only believe in the Trinity because it has been divinely revealed to us, thus we know the Trinity by faith. At the same time, is it possible to know any attributes of God by reason? Or is every attribute of God (besides His existence) a matter of faith?

I am in the process of reading Fundamentals of Catolic Dogma by Ludwig Ott, he answers this perfectly but I forget. We can know of the existence of God by human reason. I am guessing we can know the attributes of God as well by human reason but Im not 100% sure.

 

[ynotzap]

If we can know there is a God by using reason, can we also know who God is by reason as well? I understand that we only believe in the Trinity because it has been divinely revealed to us, thus we know the Trinity by faith. At the same time, is it possible to know any attributes of God by reason? Or is every attribute of God (besides His existence) a matter of faith?

Reason could never tell you who God is, that is reveal by Divine Revelation, Jesus Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. But reason can tell you that He exists, and that Existence is His nature. Because He is the Uncaused Cause of all that exists, He is the cause of all attributes that exist. God can not give what He doesn’t have, but that which He has, so He is the summation and source of all attributes. He is Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, All Good
When we say God is Existence, (the I Am Who Am) we are saying that He gives existence to all that exists, because things do not cause themselves to exist. Logically, God is His Attributes

 

[Tomdstone]

Reason could never tell you who God is, that is reveal by Divine Revelation, Jesus Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. But reason can tell you that He exists, and that Existence is His nature. Because He is the Uncaused Cause of all that exists, He is the cause of all attributes that exist. God can not give what He doesn’t have, but that which He has, so He is the summation and source of all attributes. He is Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, All Good
When we say God is Existence, (the I Am Who Am) we are saying that He gives existence to all that exists, because things do not cause themselves to exist. Logically, God is His Attributes

Does God change or not?

 

[ynotzap]

Does God change or not?

Never, He is complete is every way, the source of all things, no need to change to gain being.

 

[Tomdstone]

Never, He is complete is every way, the source of all things, no need to change to gain being.

But God responds to our prayers and according to Scripture He changed His mind. Also, He came down from heaven and became man. 2100 years ago He was not man. 100 years later, He became man. That sounds like a change to me.

 

[ynotzap]

But God responds to our prayers and according to Scripture He changed His mind. Also, He came down from heaven and became man. 2100 years ago He was not man. 100 years later, He became man. That sounds like a change to me.

God can never change His mind, to do so is to say God is not Omniscient, that is He doesn’t know everything, and can make wrong judgements He knows what you will do before you do it. Jesus Christ the second Person of the blessed Trinity is both God and man, He has a human nature and a divine nature, but is only a Divine Person, God did not change but united human nature to divinity a human nature that He created from the beginning of man. Human nature is not divine,and it will never be divine, but it will share in divinity, it still remains human, created, so God never changed, it didn’t affect His divine nature

 

[fisherman_carl]

It is possible to know somethings, but others I don’t know. For example, Catholic theologians say that God cannot change, but Holy Scripture tells us that God does change His mind and that He gets angry. Further, God responds to our prayers. Originally someone is sent to Purgatory for a certain length of time. Then his relatives on earth offer Masses and rosaries for his soul. In many cases, God will change the sentence of the person in Purgatory and allow him to enter heaven sooner.

What do you then make of Scriptures like these?

““For I the Lord do not change” (Mal 3:6)

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.’ (Heb 13:8)

“God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?” (Num 23:19)

“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.” (James 1:17)

“The Lord of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand,” (Is 14:24)

 

[puzzledtoo]

I fail to see how logic and reason can be how we can know whether there is a god or not or who god is or how god is. I fail to see how logic and reason can be used to deny the existence of a god or gods. I can only see that someone has faith there is a god or gods or one has faith that there is no god or gods.
I have faith that I’ll live to see tomorrow, that I’ll not get in a car accident today, etc… but I do not know these things through logic or reason. In my view it is illogical to assume that I can know 100% what will happen five minutes from now let alone profess there is or is not one or more superior spiritual deities. All that we believe we believe because of faith (in my view). I believe there is one truth and we may or may not ever find out what that is. I do not know this through logic or reason but through faith.

 

[IWantGod]

If we can know there is a God by using reason, can we also know who God is by reason as well? I understand that we only believe in the Trinity because it has been divinely revealed to us, thus we know the Trinity by faith. At the same time, is it possible to know any attributes of God by reason? Or is every attribute of God (besides His existence) a matter of faith?

If God is sharing existence with us, something he doesn’t have to give, then you could say its a gift and therefore you could say that God is love, but i don’t know if that can be proved in a strictly logical sense.

 

[LethalMouse]

I fail to see how logic and reason can be how we can know whether there is a god or not or who god is or how god is. I fail to see how logic and reason can be used to deny the existence of a god or gods. I can only see that someone has faith there is a god or gods or one has faith that there is no god or gods.
I have faith that I’ll live to see tomorrow, that I’ll not get in a car accident today, etc… but I do not know these things through logic or reason. In my view it is illogical to assume that I can know 100% what will happen five minutes from now let alone profess there is or is not one or more superior spiritual deities. All that we believe we believe because of faith (in my view). I believe there is one truth and we may or may not ever find out what that is. I do not know this through logic or reason but through faith.

Well, would it be logical if you meet God, angel, saint that you would then believe they are real? Then how about when someone tells you about it?

The thing here is I was not there for Julius Caesar, I know him based on what I was told and the fact that there are enough “reasons” to accept it. I wouldn’t really call it faith that I acknowledge Caesar as real.

I have only seen electron through media… I have also seen an old man create dinosaurs for an amusement park via the same media. So I use reason and logic to piece together the explanation of electrons and the validity of them.

I would say that God is like an electron SOME people have (or theoretically have) seen Him/them and then relayed the info and we use reason to validate or deny.

If God cannot be reasoned this way, then here is a short incomplete list of things I have the same amount of evidence for:

The image of the earth from space

Planets

Atoms

Molecules

Historical figures including but not limited to kings, philosophers, emperors, heck I cannot personally validate the existance of JFK anymore than whether or not Forest Gump shook his hand… for I have the same physical evidence and just some people who tell me he was real.

 

[yppop]

For what it’s worth, this maybe pertinent to this discussion. Here is a Dogma of the Catholic Church:

God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty, by the natural light of reason from created things(De fide)

Yppop

 

[IWantGod]

For what it’s worth, this maybe pertinent to this discussion. Here is a Dogma of the Catholic Church:

God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty, by the natural light of reason from created things(De fide)

Yppop

Its interesting that the very dogma of the catholic faith is not Fideism but instead argues that reason can know the existence of God.

 

[puzzledtoo]

Thank you lethal… for allowing me to see the error in my post. “All that we believe we believe because of faith…” Makes no sense in the context of the earth and all that is here or the planets, stars, etc…
Julius Caesar I can believe in historically but will have to take on faith that everything I’ve learned about him is accurate.
As for meeting god, a saint, an angel, etc… being logical I would have to believe that I’d have to take this on faith.
Last year my wife and I traveled several hours away by car to help one of our granddaughters move into an apartment of campus. She had stored some things at the home of the parents of an ex-boyfriend and was meeting us there as my wife knew where this was. We were there a few minutes before her-when she drove down the street in our direction coming from the direction we faced I saw a person sitting on the passenger side of the car with a baseball cap on. I asked my wife if ------ was having someone else help as well? She said not that she knew of and asked, why? I mentioned the person I saw and she said “oh, I didn’t see anyone.”
Our granddaughter pulled in the drive way, we got out of our car which was in the street and walked up to meet her. When I got near her car I looked towards the passenger seat to say hello to who I had seen. There was no one there. I asked our granddaughter if the person had already gone in the garage (thinking I hadn’t seen them get out of the car). She asked me who? I told her what I had seen (you can guess the look I got from her). She assured me there was no one with her. This bothered me for quite some time.
I cannot explain this incident through logic nor through reason. I can only state that I have faith that I “saw” someone. I don’t expect anyone else to believe it because of logic or because it seems reasonable (which it doesn’t to me) or to take it on faith because I have.
Hope this clarifies what I mean a bit.