Cardinal Pell to stand trial

[FiveLinden]

Treated like any other accused: George Pell's life of extremes

Cardinal George Pell is used to controlling the Catholic Church's immense wealth from Vatican City. The issues facing him were very different on Tuesday.

www.theage.com.au

Good news for the Cardinal’s defence: some serious charges dropped. Bad news: he must stand trial on others. Surely it would now be appropriate for Cardinal Pell to retire from all roles in the Church with the proviso that if he is found to be not guilty he will again be considered for roles suitable for a person of his age and experience?

 

[pianistclare]

Already a thread on this

 

[FiveLinden]

Thanks. I searched for one before posting. Still can’t find it. Link?

 

[Annie]

Cardinal Pell going to trial Catholic News

Aye mate, I hear ya.

I don’t know why that “Aye, mate” comment is there, nor can I take it off.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Surely it would now be appropriate for Cardinal Pell to retire from all roles in the Church with the proviso that if he is found to be not guilty he will again be considered for roles suitable for a person of his age and experience?

Guilty until proven innocent?

 

[pianistclare]

Cardinal Pell going to trial Catholic News

The magistrate hasn’t finished yet. They are still in court working through what he will and won’t stand trial for. There is going to be a mixed bag because Ballarat is a ground zero for a lot of this stuff. Support and throw him in jail and lose the key. It’s going to be really hard now for people to separate this from the ‘ he should have done something when Risdale was offending here’ Cardinal Pell will plead not guilty.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Surely it would now be appropriate for Cardinal Pell to retire from all roles in the Church with the proviso that if he is found to be not guilty he will again be considered for roles suitable for a person of his age and experience?

He is on leave from the Vatican.

Australia has an innocent until proven otherwise legal system .

 

[FiveLinden]

I want to respond to the ‘innocent until proven guilty’ comments. He will only be found guilty if he is found to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. This is not the standard the Church generally and rightly applies in the payment of compensation for abuse which is ‘credible accusation’. If he is found guilty he will appeal (I assume) and appeal again. This could take years. As long as he holds an official position, even if on leave, this is a bigger problem for the Church than it needs to be. If he is found not guilty and the evidence also shows he is not guilty on the balance probabilities (the lower,‘civil’ standard) the he could take up any number of posts, including his old one. Thought why he would want to I don’t know! I am not suggesting he step down as a punishment, but as a prudent action to lessen the harm being done to the Church.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

want to respond to the ‘innocent until proven guilty’ comments. He will only be found guilty if he is found to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. This is not the standard the Church generally and rightly applies in the payment of compensation for abuse which is ‘credible accusation’. If he is found guilty he will appeal (I assume) and appeal again. This could take years. As long as he holds an official position, even if on leave, this is a bigger problem for the Church than it needs to be. If he is found not guilty and the evidence also shows he is not guilty on the balance probabilities (the lower,‘civil’ standard) the he could take up any number of posts, including his old one. Thought why he would want to I don’t know! I am not suggesting he step down as a punishment, but as a prudent action to lessen the harm being done to the Church.

You are confusing me.

He is standing trial, probably 2 separate trials , in a secular criminal court in the Australian legal system.
Yes it will be a long few trials.
If he is found not guilty on all charges, then he is simply not guilty. He is free to go.
If he is found guilty, he will likely go to jail.
This isn’t a civil case, it’s a criminal case.

As far as his Vatican job, the position he holds is for 5 years. In 3 years he reaches the age of 80 and retirement age for Cardinals.

You are discussing a separate topic regarding victims suing for compensation.
That’s an issue being thrashed out at the moment for the outcome of the Royal Commission. Not for the Pell Case.

The Vatican is following this closely as can be expected. One of the charges allegedly occurred in my Diocese. No doubt our Bishop will have a bit to say on Sunday. After all he is our Shepherd.

 

[graciew]

This has to be very hard for you and especially everyone in the Diocese.
In my prayers, Rose.
How long do you think the whole process may take?

 

[Annie]

He may resign now that it has been determined that he will be tried.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

An update tonight says they are going to push for an almost immediate start and try have both trials over within a year.

It’s not going to be easy. But we have been dealing with other cases so it’s kind of like same thing different day.

The Pope is standing by Cardinal Pell

He may resign now that it has been determined that he will be tried.

He is on leave. The Pope Has extended his leave. His term as Treasurer is almost up . Perhaps 12 mths to go I think

 

[FiveLinden]

You are confusing me.

I think that the Church would be in a much stronger position if the Cardinal held no official position, on leave or not. Now for months, maybe years, the ‘third-ranked Vatican official’ will be in the news. I am not arguing about his rights. I am saying what I think the wise thing to do is.

 

[graciew]

Thank you.
I know he is on leave. Burke,the spokesman of the Vatican, said he needed the time to defend himself.
What I cannot get out of my mind is that as a person,any person,if he is innocent,the toll is takes will be very high. And he is already of age.
For all involved, for those who are sincerely suffering in the case,whoever the real victim/s /is /are,I pray it is quick…

 

[Roseeurekacross]

I think that the Church would be in a much stronger position if the Cardinal held no official position, on leave or not. Now for months, maybe years, the ‘third-ranked Vatican official’ will be in the news. I am not arguing about his rights. I am saying what I think the wise thing to do is.

The lawyers are going to push for the whole thing to be done within the year.
It’s going to benefit no one here, parishioners, Clergy, survivors of Risdale et al, to have this drag on and on. We have had over 5 years of this issue now.
And it seems Pappa Francis is going to be close to everyone here.

The Catholic Church here is already shot to pieces. The Royal Commission which went for 5 years uncovered the full extent of abuse . People are still reeling. Imagine the survivors.
People need to see unity in the Church now. All Catholics from the Pontiff down closing ranks and being supportive.
Of everyone, suvivors, victims, families, parishioners, clergy, religious.

This is what we say.
Yes this child abuse did happen with other now convicted criminals . Yes my Diocese had 7% of the clergy and religious and associated laity abusing children.
If Cardinal Pell is found guilty well, he goes to the jail the others are in, also in my Diocese.
If he is found innocent, he goes free.
We aren’t making any excuses.
Nor are we concerned about how we are viewed. It’s pretty obvious!
Google the loud fence.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

The third ranked was born here, went to school here, Seminary here, Ordained here, was a Priest here
He is one of us.

 

[FiveLinden]

Nor are we concerned about how we are viewed.

Well this concern is a big part of the problem of abuse cover-ups in the first place so I can see the temptation to go to the other extreme. But I do think the Church’s judgement, especially the of the Pope, can be questioned on this One. His Holiness’ outburst about one set of cases, for which he has now apologised, is one indication of poor thinking on the subject. And I think the failure to recognise that it is possible to remove Cardinal Pell now a prima facie case has been established is another example. So too, with all respect, is your comment quoted above. There are many references in scripture to taking care of what others may think of Christians.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Well this concern is a big part of the problem of abuse cover-ups in the first place so I can see the temptation to go to the other extreme.

You would be preaching to the choir with that one. We have been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

We are not concerned how we are viewed as that doesn’t help the survivors, the families of those who suicided, the ex clergy in prison, the parishioners, the clergy.

We are viewed as that place full of paedophiles. It’s going to take decades to have that view removed.

We are concerned with healing, with moving forward. We are concerned with saying hey, we are still here. We are not destroyed. We don’t hang our head. We practice our faith, we stand up for the good clergy we now have. And the good clergy we have had. We support the victims and survivors of the evil they were subject too.

And I think the failure to recognise that it is possible to remove Cardinal Pell

Cardinal Pell is innocent until proven guilty. It’s got nothing to do with cases elsewhere.
No case elsewhere and no case within this country is relevant.
Cardinal Pell maintains his innocence. By this stage those who were guilty had come out and pleaded guilty.

Again with reference to Scripture, you can be assured the name of the Catholic church and clergy here is already mud. Both within the Catholic Church and without.
Nothing is going to change that mate.
When you have one class of boys all,every single one, abused by religious and clergy, you can’t hit much more rock bottom then that, can you?

Scripture lays waste to evil, so eventually did my Diocese.
And this, God willing, is the last chapter.

 

[FiveLinden]

When you have one class of boys all,every single one, abused by religious and clergy, you can’t hit much more rock bottom then that, can you?

Yes I see where you are coming from. I have read quite a bit of the Royal Commission but missed that appalling report. I like the way you address the issue directly. Wish there were more like you!

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Thankyou. Our Bishop leads the way in directness in this issue… It’s his job to put the Diocese all back together.