Cardinal Tobin warns against temptation to shrink Catholic community to pure members

[JimR-OCDS]

Attempts to make the church smaller and more pure will only achieve one of the two—and it is probably not the latter.

That was the message from Cardinal Joseph Tobin in a talk at Villanova University on April 12, during which he urged Catholics to resist allowing “the individualism that permeates our culture” to infect the church.

“Even from ancient times, there have been individuals and movements who have tried to define and delimit what is means to be a Catholic Christian,” the Newark archbishop said. “Nevertheless, the universal church has always repudiated such attempts. It is only the Lord who ultimately judges who belongs or does not belong.” Cardinal Tobin warns against temptation to shrink Catholic community to pure members | America Magazine

Jim

 

[Luke6_37]

I can’t help think but this is directed at some of the “Catholic” news sites out there.

Reminds me of the parable of the wheat & the weeds:

Matthew 13:24-30 NABRE - - Bible Gateway

 

[abucs]

More recently, Rod Dreher, an editor at The American Conservative, wrote a popular book called The Benedict Option, in which he argues that civil society has become overly hostile to Christian belief, requiring believers to separate themselves from the dominant secular culture.

I agree with this. It is not turning away from the world ito concentrate on Catholic fellowship and rebuilding Catholic culture. In order to turn to the world and offer Catholic culture we have to first live and protect that culture.

The last 50 years has all been about being part of a secular universalist culture that is not so universal anymore, and definitely not Christian.

 

[Luke6_37]

In order to turn to the world and offer Catholic culture we have to first live and protect that culture.

What is Catholic culture? Do African or Asian or South American or Middle Eastern Catholics get a say in how Catholic culture is expressed? Just wondering if you realize that the universal church is very diverse.

The solution is not to retreat, but to ignite the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and engage the culture. Show some fortitude! What’s the worse that can happen? Nobody is getting martyred in the West for being Catholic. The unchurched are nice folks. No need to be afraid of them.

 

[abucs]

What is Catholic culture? Do African or Asian or South American or Middle Eastern Catholics get a say in how Catholic culture is expressed? Just wondering if you realize that the universal church is very diverse.

The solution is not to retreat, but to ignite the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and engage the culture. Show some fortitude! What’s the worse that can happen? Nobody is getting martyred in the West for being Catholic. The unchurched are nice folks. No need to be afraid of them.

I think this talk of being ‘afraid’ and ‘retreating’ and ‘lack of fortitude’ and a belief in an exclusive understanding of the Holy Spirit is really juvenile and comes from a self deluded place of such obvious ignorance that it is not really worth a response (hopefully).

If you don’t know what Catholic culture is then it is pretty sure that you don’t have it which is exactly the problem.

By the way I am living in a Catholic Asian country so just like the ‘afraid’ nonsense above don’t give me the politically correct ‘racism’ rubbish or ‘diversity’ diversion.

You assume too much and none of it is good. That is another facet of the secular politically correct religion that increasing numbers of us realise we need to oppose.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

What is Catholic culture? Do African or Asian or South American or Middle Eastern Catholics get a say in how Catholic culture is expressed? Just wondering if you realize that the universal church is very diverse.

The solution is not to retreat, but to ignite the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and engage the culture. Show some fortitude! What’s the worse that can happen? Nobody is getting martyred in the West for being Catholic. The unchurched are nice folks. No need to be afraid of them.

I think this talk of being ‘afraid’ and ‘retreating’ and ‘lack of fortitude’ and a belief in an exclusive understanding of the Holy Spirit is really juvenile and comes from a self deluded place of such obvious ignorance that it is not really worth a response (hopefully).

If you don’t know what Catholic culture is then it is pretty sure that you don’t have it which is exactly the problem.

By the way I am living in a Catholic Asian country so just like the ‘afraid’ nonsense above don’t give me the politically correct ‘racism’ rubbish or ‘diversity’ diversion.

You assume too much and none of it is good. That is another facet of the secular politically correct religion that increasing numbers of us realise we need to oppose.

You certainly know how to give offense when confronted with potentially implied offense.

Perhaps directly insulting people is part of your “Catholic Culture”. In my “Catholic Culture” we aspire to a higher standard. I don’t take offense so easily, because I have more wisdom than that. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are very useful, you should try them some time. Perhaps you will stop feeling oppressed and be able to enjoy the Fruits of the Spirit as well.

 

[abucs]

You certainly know how to give offense when confronted with potentially implied offense.

Perhaps directly insulting people is part of your “Catholic Culture”. In my “Catholic Culture” we aspire to a higher standard. I don’t take offense so easily, because I have more wisdom than that. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are very useful, you should try them some time. Perhaps you will stop feeling oppressed and be able to enjoy the Fruits of the Spirit as well.

I am not oppressed, you are assuming again.

Now you pull the ‘I am offended’ card, another facet of the politically correct religion.

I have not directly called you politically correct but in the space of a few lines you have assumed and insinuated to me a phobia; an opposition to an understanding of diversity; an implicit disregarding of non white voices; and now the ‘I am insulted’ card.

Your comments are a parody of the politically correct religion.

Honestly, you should think very carefully about this and link it to why you seem to not know what Catholic culture even is.

 

[Luke6_37]

you seem to not know what Catholic culture even is.

Well, I can tell you what it’s not…

 

[abucs]

Well, I can tell you what it’s not…

So that means you should have an idea of what it is.

So why then did you start off by asking what Catholic culture is in a dismissive way as if it does not exist?

If now you admit there is a Catholic culture then great we have progressed.

Please tell me what you think it is and then we can reference it to the talk above instead of your first attempt which was to downplay it and claim I am somehow afraid of the unchurched which was a completely irrational statement.

 

[Luke6_37]

You do realize you went totally off the deep end over a fairly innocuous comment. So maybe we should begin by addressing why you are so easily triggered.

 

[abucs]

You do realize you went totally off the deep end over a fairly innocuous comment. So maybe we should begin by addressing why you are so easily triggered.

Your ‘fairly innocuous comment’ was the first part of our conversation.

It falsely and arrogantly ascribed to me :

a lack of knowledge and respect for the diversity of the church;
an implicit disregarding of non white Catholic voices;
an implicit criticism of an objective Catholic culture
an explicit lack of fortitude in relating to the world;
an explicit fear of the unchurched etc etc.

That was your first post to me.

That is going off the deep end. You should look to that.

Are you afraid to tell me what you think a Catholic culture is? You should also look to that.

Don’t change the subject because you now realise that you have no explanation for your comments.

 

[Luke6_37]

Don’t change the subject because you now realise that you have no explanation for your comments.

I’m not changing the subject. I’m just setting the ground rules for a civil exchange if you want to continue this conversation.

Now, you need to explain two things…

1. How is your response below NOT an endorsement of running away from American society as if Christians here were being persecuted?

(The man you quote writes for the American Conservative, so I assume he is talking about the U.S.)

…civil society has become overly hostile to Christian belief, requiring believers to separate themselves from the dominant secular culture.

I agree with this…

and…

Just wondering if you realize that the universal church is very diverse.

A simple “yes” would have sufficed here. Even if you felt you were being unfairly challenged, there is no need to escalate the situation by throwing out a bunch of direct insults. Remember “turn the other cheek” is what Christians do.

1. You still need to answer my question:

What is Catholic culture?

And try to do it without a huge chip on your shoulder. You are too easily triggered. Otherwise, methinks thou dost protest too much.

 

[Luke6_37]

Regarding The Benedict Option

Cardinal Tobin seemingly condemned this approach to faith, characterizing it as an effort to form “small enclaves” of believers who will somehow “safeguard the treasure of the Christian tradition in its purest form from the corrosive intrusion of a corrupt society.” He said instead that engagement with the world is a Christian principle that dates back to the earliest followers of Jesus.

Those who retreat from society to preserve the faith undermine the mission of the church to bring the Light of Christ to all the nations.

I do not think a Catholic Culture exists, but rather a plurality of Catholic Cultures that are united under Rome. The Eastern Orthodox churches are a good example of how regional cultures can influence Catholic culture, but they suffer from disunity. Getting them back to recognizing the primacy of Rome and restoring the ancient Pentarchy is what we need to do.

 

[Genesis315]

I don’t think Benedict (or Chaput for that matter) put a smaller, purer Church forward as a goal, but simply something that may happen de facto and, as Chaput said, it shouldn’t be feared–the early Church was still able to be effective under these circumstances.

Of course, we should always be seeking a purer Church (as Vatican II says, the Church is “always in need of being purified”) and sometimes that does mean a bishop needs to “judge those inside the Church” and “drive out the wicked person” for the good of the Church (see 1 Cor. 5:12-13).

But in general, the Church is like Noah’s ark, with both “clean” and “unclean” members (as the ark had clean and unclean animals) and only the sins of separation–apostasy, heresy, and schism–of themselves separate one from the Church (since they oppose the things that make us members of the Church–faith and hierarchical communion). Those guilty of other sins should generally not be driven from the Church solely to try and create a smaller, more pure Church. They need the grace entrusted to the Church if they are going to be saved in the end.

 

[ChunkMonk]

What about this?

And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Matthew 18:17

 

[abucs]

My post was on Catholic culture.

First you dismissed it then you implicitly acknowledged it exists.

This is the third time now I am asking you to give me your thoughts on what Catholic culture is. Why is it that you don’t want to talk about Catholic culture when that was the focus of my point that you replied to and originally dismissed? Are you not comfortable in talking about Catholic culture? You seem to be quite comfortable spewing forth the politically correct culture with all its false and narrow minded allegations and then claiming victimhood. What is your understanding of Catholic culture?

That is the topic of our conversation and you are running away from that by claiming offense, ignoring your own original arrogance and false attributions, ignoring my questions and now wanting to set ground rules and change the discussion to triggering.

Stop running away.
If you want to have a discussion on my post (you replied to me) then great.

Have some self respect, stick to the discussion on Catholic culture which is the topic of the post I made and that you first replied to with your pc nonsense.

 

[Luke6_37]

This is the third time now I am asking you to give me your thoughts on what Catholic culture is. Why is it that you don’t want to talk about Catholic culture when that was the focus of my point that you replied to and originally dismissed? Are you not comfortable in talking about Catholic culture?

I do not think a Catholic Culture exists, but rather a plurality of Catholic Cultures that are united under Rome. The Eastern Orthodox churches are a good example of how regional cultures can influence Catholic culture, but they suffer from disunity. Getting them back to recognizing the primacy of Rome and restoring the ancient Pentarchy is what we need to do.

Right underneath the comment asking you to explain yourself. I notice you have yet to respond to that.

 

[abucs]

A Catholic culture exists. It is so vast that only a summary can be given here,

It includes an orientation of ones life to:

the seven sacraments - eucharist, reconciliation, baptism etc
the seasons of the church - lent, Easter, Christmas, All Hallows Day, etc.
the recognition, contemplation and emulation of the lives of the different saints,
a respect, commitment and devotion to the Holy scripture especially with regards to the incarnated Jesus.
a commitment to a Catholic prayer life of devotion, reflection and continual self improvement following the many Catholic traditions of history.
a commitment to join in the life of the church with others to live this life and support the mission of the church through such activities as Catholic education, healthcare, charity, evangelisation, prayer groups, St. Vincent de Paul or any number of Catholic societies.
a support and respect for the structural arrangement of the church such as clergy, religious communities, the papacy etc.
a respect and commitment to Catholic dogma and tradition and joining in communion with others in living this life through varied expressions as Holy hour, liturgies of the hours, stations of the cross, prayer groups, scripture groups etc.
A commitment to rear one’s family in this culture and invite others to participate.

It is through this Catholic culture that we join with others and ‘ignite’ the Holy Spirit to fulfil the gospel direction of creating the Kingdom of Heaven and inviting others to be part of this.

Much of this culture is robust enough to have local varieties of things like different saints, music, histories, societies, religious communities etc. but the core culture is the same and it is Catholic.

It is not being ‘afraid’ or showing a ‘lack of fortitude’ in supporting and living the Catholic culture. It is very much the opposite. It is being strong in the Catholic culture and looking out to the world from this position of strength with confidence and a willingness to share this with others.

 

[Luke6_37]

I’m glad you are so enthusiastic about all that. You are right to say that the Catholic faith has a lot to offer. I would call most of what you listed discipleship, and the learning process that leads to it Catechesis or Faith Formation, but I guess you could call it Culture too.

But what I don’t understand is why you would agree with Rod Dreher, who wants to circle the wagons and keep all those awesome riches inside an ever shrinking Catholic bubble?

I don’t think that is at all consistent with your comment below.

It is through this Catholic culture that we join with others and ‘ignite’ the Holy Spirit to fulfil the gospel direction of creating the Kingdom of Heaven and inviting others to be part of this.

If you really mean this, then you should volunteer to be a Catechist for your parish Religious Education Program if you aren’t one already. A good Catechist can have a great deal of influence on what the kids & their parents learn.

 

[abucs]

If you are under attack then you circle the wagons but that doesn’t mean the default position is to stay still.

After all to continue the metaphor, the wagon train is a mode of transport for a community which aims to get somewhere together.

Sometimes you circle the wagons but most of the time you are on your journey.

If you are under attack and you don’t take precautions then the wagons will be damaged which will impede the journey and you risk losing members of the community who are in your care.