Catholic intellectual tradition plagiarized from Muslims?

[Upgrade25]

My history lesson today talked about the unenlightenment of the Christian world and monks and nuns, as they prayed over dead Saint relics; as the Muslims of Baghdad and Córdoba learned and cured diseases and embraced ancient philosophers that were taboo to Catholics, like Plato and Aristotle.

Link to video here. Starts the section I’m speaking of at about one hour.

Is there another side to this story? I feel like an un-enlightened barbarian.

 

[Upgrade25]

My history lesson today talked about the unenlightenment of the Christian world and monks and nuns, as they prayed over dead Saint relics; as the Muslims of Baghdad and Córdoba learned and cured diseases and embraced ancient philosophers that were taboo to Catholics, like Plato and Aristotle.

Link to video here. Starts the section I’m speaking of at about one hour.

Is there another side to this story? I feel like an un-enlightened barbarian.

Fixed the link.

 

[porthos11]

My history lesson today talked about the unenlightenment of the Christian world and monks and nuns, as they prayed over dead Saint relics; as the Muslims of Baghdad and Córdoba learned and cured diseases and embraced ancient philosophers that were taboo to Catholics, like Plato and Aristotle.

Link to video here. Starts the section I’m speaking of at about one hour.

Is there another side to this story? I feel like an un-enlightened barbarian.

Seriously?

Sorry, but they have it backwards. It’s the Islamic world that has stagnated intellectually, while the Catholic Church built Western civilization. The best educational and medical institutions were run by Catholic monasteries and universities, all done out of Christian love. Catholics have incorporated pagan Greek thought from the earliest days. The greatest hardships that hit European societies were when the Catholic institutions, such as the monasteries, were dissolved.

Pray over dead saints relics. What a laugh. Those monks and nuns, probably more than anyone else, are responsible for the civilization you enjoy today.

amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Is there another side to this story? I feel like an un-enlightened barbarian.

Making you feel that way may have been the purpose of the instruction. There is a lot of that going around lately; I mean bashing Christians.

 

[porthos11]

Oh, and yes. Unenlightened barbarians built this:

 

[porthos11]

Oh, and yes. Unenlightened barbarians built this:

 

[TimothyH]

My history lesson today talked about the unenlightenment of the Christian world and monks and nuns, as they prayed over dead Saint relics; as the Muslims of Baghdad and Córdoba learned and cured diseases and **embraced ancient philosophers that were taboo to Catholics, like Plato and Aristotle. **

Link to video here. Starts the section I’m speaking of at about one hour.

Is there another side to this story? I feel like an un-enlightened barbarian.

The Red/Bold is true.

Aristotlean philosophy was shunned by much of the Church for many centuries. It’s introduction almost ripped the Church apart. Aristotlean philosophy was embraced by much of the Muslim world during this time.

*This period saw the beginning of the ‘rediscovery’ of many Greek works which had been lost to the Latin West. As early as the 10th century, scholars in Spain had begun to gather translated texts and, in the latter half of that century, began transmitting them to the rest of Europe. After the Reconquista of the 12th century, Spain opened even further for Christian scholars, who were now able to work in ‘friendly’ religious territory. As these Europeans encountered Islamic philosophy, they opened a wealth of Arab knowledge of mathematics and astronomy.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholasticism*

We have to remember how strong the Ottomon Empire was. It nearly conquered all of Europe and wasn’t fully defeated until the Battle of Lapanto in 1522.

This isn’t Christian bashing. It is simply historical fact.

-Tim-

 

[Holly3278]

From what I understand, Catholic intellectual thought was flourishing during the Middle Ages. After all, didn’t Saint Thomas Aquinas live during the Middle Ages? He was one of the greatest philosophers to ever live.

 

[TimothyH]

From what I understand, Catholic intellectual thought was flourishing during the Middle Ages. After all, didn’t Saint Thomas Aquinas live during the Middle Ages? He was one of the greatest philosophers to ever live.

He lived 1225 to 1274.

Peter Lombard wrote “The Sentences” one hundred years prior It was similar in construct but four volumes. The Sentences was the standard before Aquinas and Bonaventure wrote the Summa. Aquinas wrote a commentary on the Sentences. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentences

That doesn’t change the fact that theology was mostly monastic, not scholastic, for 1000 years prior to either Aquinas or Lombard.

Here is an article by Pope Benedict XVI. w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20091028.html

Another great website: Monasticism vs Scholasticism - msaviour.org/2010/mon_sch.htm

-Tim-

 

[JurisPrudens]

My history lesson today talked about the unenlightenment of the Christian world and monks and nuns, as they prayed over dead Saint relics; as the Muslims of Baghdad and Córdoba learned and cured diseases and embraced ancient philosophers that were taboo to Catholics, like Plato and Aristotle.

Link to video here. Starts the section I’m speaking of at about one hour.

Is there another side to this story? I feel like an un-enlightened barbarian.

I don’t see how praying over the Holy relics is “unenlightened”.

I am generally suspicious of the word “enlightenment”. If it denotes just the increase of knowledge, it is something real. But sometimes it denotes some forms of development in a particular direction, a “progress”. This meaning is nonsensical.

Most importantly, I don’t see how you can “plagiarize” as intellectual tradition. Ideas are not and have never been “copyrighted”.

Was Christianity influenced by the Muslim tradition? It was! And there is nothing wrong with that!

 

[phil19034]

No, there is a lot of misunderstanding of that period, even among professional historians. It’s hard (not impossible, but hard) for a historian who isn’t a devout Catholic to understand that period. The reason is because the Catholic world view is very different from a Protestant world view, secular world view, atheist world view, etc.

Plato and Aristotle were Greek, so we didn’t steal it from the Muslims. We MAY have been reintroduced to it due to the travels of Crusaders, built wasn’t stolen from them.

Let’s also remember the following, Christianity started as basically a “grassroots movement.” Many in the ancient establishment resisted. The development of Christendom took time, but what attracted concerts to the Faith was the strong beliefs of the Christians. So Christendom naturally took on a “monk like” character as it grew in power.

The Church has a history of not further defining dogma or theology until it’s being challenged. Those times and the time of the enlightenment started to challenge the beliefs of the Church, which required the growth in the study of Theology and apologetics.

If you read St Thomas Aquinus’s Summa you will be surprised at how many questions back them are still being asked today. It’s remarkable how relevant the Summa still is today.

Finally, Catholics believe in prayer. We believe in the Communion of Saints. We believe that relics can help us become spiritually closer to a Saint, just like people feel like having something from a dead relative helps them feel closer to him/her. If this stuff is alien to you, the Middle Ages will be alien too.

I pray this is helpful.

God Bless!

 

[dmar198]

My history lesson today talked about the unenlightenment of the Christian world and monks and nuns, as they prayed over dead Saint relics;

St. Boethius, Cassiodorus, St. Bede the Venerable, St. Alcuin of York, Dicuil, John Scottus Eriugena, St. Paschasius Radbertus, Bl. Rabanus Maurus, and St. Cyril the Philosopher. If the Christian world was unenlightened, who were these guys? They are a sample of the many great original thinkers the Church produced before and during the so-called “Muslim Golden Age,” the period that bad western historians sometimes wrongly call the “dark ages.” Its memory is better served by those who study the Carolingian Renaissance, which took place in Catholic europe during this time.

I specifically selected those people in case you want to look them up because they were on par with, and sometimes more advanced than the Muslims in developing early scientific disciplines like geography, astronomy, geology, linguistics, and technology. As just one example, St. Boethius designed the same kinds of clocks that Muslims were later famous for, and he was dead before Mohammed was even born.

[T]he Muslims of Baghdad and Córdoba learned and cured diseases

So did Catholics at Salerno and the University of Constantinople. The university of Constantinople was the oldest european university at the time, and was in existence for over 1000 years until some Muslims destroyed it in 1453. Some of the students there received medical training and cured diseases. Salerno was home to the world’s oldest and first medical school, founded in the 800s. They made use of ancient Greek and Latin treatises on medicine, including Catholic medical thinkers like St. Nemesius of Emesa and Paul of Aegina, as well as the contributions of Muslim scholars. Catholics were not afraid of Muslim thought.

[Muslims] embraced ancient philosophers that were taboo to Catholics, like Plato and Aristotle.

[That] is true. Aristotlean philosophy was shunned by much of the Church for many centuries. It’s introduction almost ripped the Church apart. Aristotlean philosophy was embraced by much of the Muslim world during this time.

First, TimothyH, do remember that Some works by Aristotle were accepted in the early medieval west, particularly Aristotle’s treatises on logic and his book On Categories. St. Boethius had translated those into Latin early in Church history and they had been accepted and taught for a long time. Second, Aristotle’s writings were always more appreciated and studied in the eastern Catholic churches, even before the schism. The reason we have his writings today is because eastern Catholics copied them and taught them in the original Greek.

Third, and this is to Upgrade25, the Catholic Church had accepted many writings and ideas of Aristotle during the so-called “dark ages” and it also was never afraid of Plato. Several of the people I cited early in this post were students of platonic thought and they show a deep familiarity with Plato’s writings. Catholics during this time weren’t afraid of Aristotle, Plato, or Muslim thinkers, and they interacted with them all on a frequent basis – though less so with Aristotle, because they had fewer of his writings available in Latin.

I hope that helps. God bless!

 

[Upgrade25]

St. Boethius, Cassiodorus, St. Bede the Venerable, St. Alcuin of York, Dicuilus, John Scottus Eriugena, St. Paschasius Radbertus, Bl. Rabanus Maurus, and St. Cyril the Philosopher. If the Christian world was unenlightened, who were these guys? They are a sample of the many great original thinkers the Church produced before and during the so-called “Muslim Golden Age,” the period that bad western historians sometimes wrongly call the “dark ages.” Its memory is better served by those who study the Carolingian Renaissance, which took place in Catholic europe during this time.

I specifically selected those people in case you want to look them up because they were on par with, and sometimes more advanced than the Muslims in developing early scientific disciplines like geography, astronomy, geology, linguistics, and technology. As just one example, St. Boethius designed the same kinds of clocks that Muslims were later famous for, and he was dead before Mohammed was even born. So did Catholics at Salerno and the University of Constantinople. The university of Constantinople was the oldest european university at the time, and was in existence for over 1000 years until some Muslims destroyed it in 1453. Some of the students there received medical training and cured diseases. Salerno was home to the world’s oldest and first medical school, founded in the 800s. They made use of ancient Greek and Latin treatises on medicine, including Catholic medical thinkers like St. Nemesius of Emesa, as well as the contributions of Muslim scholars. Catholics were not afraid of Muslim thought. First, TimothyH, do remember that Some works by Aristotle were accepted in the early medieval west, particularly Aristotle’s treatises on logic and his book On Categories. St. Boethius had translated those into Latin early in Church history and they had been accepted and taught for a long time. Second, Aristotle’s writings were always more appreciated and studied in the eastern Catholic churches, even before the schism. The reason we have his writings today is because eastern Catholics copied them and taught them in the original Greek.

Third, and this is to Upgrade25, the Catholic Church had accepted many writings and ideas of Aristotle during the so-called “dark ages” and it also was never afraid of Plato. Several of the people I cited early in this post were students of platonic thought and they show a deep familiarity with Plato’s writings. Catholics during this time weren’t afraid of Aristotle, Plato, or Muslim thinkers, and they interacted with them all on a frequent basis – though less so with Aristotle, because they had fewer of his writings available in Latin.

I hope that helps. God bless!

Do you have any resources I could use to learn more about this, especially the philosophies and medicines and universities in the pre-MuslimGoldenAge timeframe?

 

[dmar198]

Do you have any resources I could use to learn more about this, especially the philosophies and medicines and universities in the pre-MuslimGoldenAge timeframe?

Regarding philosophy, Frederick Copleston wrote a series called A History of Philosophy that is helpful. The relevant volume is Volume 2, Medieval Philosophy. During the time frame before the so-called “Muslim Golden Age,” he covers the philosophers Pseudo-Dionysius, St. Boethius, Cassiodorus, and St. Isidore of Seville. He gives the outlines of their philosophical insights with copious references to the books they wrote. (He didn’t write about any author until he had read the author in his original tongue.) He also includes St. Augustine and other Church Fathers who were important figures in philosophy before Islam existed. During the so-called Muslim Golden Age, he discusses Catholic philosophers of the Carolingian Renaissance, including St. Alcuin of York, Bl. Rabanus Maurus, John Scottus Eriugena, and the members of the Palace Academy of Aachen.

Regarding medicines, three pre-Muslim Catholics who developed medical science were St. Nemesius of Emesa, Paul of Aegina, and John of Alexandria. Two locations where medicine was studied were the medical school of Salerno and the University of Constantinople. (Salerno developed its medical school after Islam existed and Muslim contributions were among the many things studied there.) I am not aware of a book which discusses at length the influence of Catholic medical science during this period. There is a free English version of Paul of Aegina’s Medical Compendium in Seven Books available here, and the wikipedia article on those books does a good job of summarizing their impact. John Duffy translated some of John of Alexandria’s medical writings. Nemesius’s medical book is translated here, though that translation is from the 1600s and exhibits King James type spelling conventions.

Regarding universities, four early Catholic institutions of higher learning that you could look into are the University of Constantinople, the School of Alexandria, the Palace Academy of Aachen, and the Medical School of Salerno. The book Christian Hellenism: Essays and Studies in Continuity and Change by Demetrios Constantelos has some relevant information about the first two of those (link), and the chapter in which he discusses the University of Constantinople appears at this link. During the Carolingian Renaissance, the Palace Academy of Aachen and Salerno Medical School were founded. The Palace Academy is discussed in The Carolingians: A Family Who Forged Europe by Pierre Riche (link) and perhaps in Carolingian Renewal: Sources and Heritage by Donald A. Bullough (link). For Salerno, you could look at Practical Medicine from Salerno to the Black Death by Luis Garcia-Ballester (link) and the entry in Medieval Science, Technology, and Medicine: An Encyclopedia by Thomas F. Glick (link).

I hope that helps. God bless!

 

[Rhubarb]

When the Western Empire fell, things went to heck in Western Europe. It got to the point where people were quarrying aquaducts and buildings for stone because they lost the capacity to repair them. Literacy was almost non-existent.

There were some exceptions. Monestaries were centers of culture and learning - often with the surrounding areas depending on them for commerce, medical/hospitals, and such. There was also a push by Charlemagne to try and educate his population.

By contrast, what you would find in Bagdad, Cordoba, and Grenada was hugely successful intellectually and economically. Muslim Spain and the Levant was far more advanced in pretty much every field. They continued philosophy and learning, encouraged trade, experimented in the sciences - that’s why algebra and chemistry has Arabic rooted names. Aristotle and Greek philosophy was re-introduced to Western Europe from Arabic commentaries. The cultural exchange brought by the Crusaders sparked the West’s growth.

The one area I find people forgetting when they talk about the differences between Muslim east and Christian west is (Christian) Byzantium. The eastern empire kept on going through the middle ages and we’re hugely successful in the education department. I read an anecdote that the Byzantine Emperor had a mechanical throne that would move about.

 

[Thorolfr]

Seriously?

Sorry, but they have it backwards. It’s the Islamic world that has stagnated intellectually, while the Catholic Church built Western civilization. The best educational and medical institutions were run by Catholic monasteries and universities, all done out of Christian love. Catholics have incorporated pagan Greek thought from the earliest days. The greatest hardships that hit European societies were when the Catholic institutions, such as the monasteries, were dissolved.

Actually, a lot of learning, especially Greek learning, came to Christian Europe by way of the Muslims. For example, two important philosophers who were popular among medieval Christians were Avicenna and Averroes. Avicenna was the Latin name for ʿAlī al-Ḥusayn ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn Al-Hasan ibn Ali ibn Sīnā (c. 980-1037) who was Persian. Averroes was the Latin name for ʾAbū l-Walīd Muḥammad Ibn ʾAḥmad Ibn Rushd (1126-1198) was from Andalusia in what is now Spain. Both Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd were Muslims who had access to Greek learning and their works were translated from Arabic into Latin. Also lots of works from ancient Greece now exist only in Arabic translations which were then translated from Arabic into Latin during the Middle Ages.

Muslims were also ahead of Christian Europe in the Middle Ages in mathematics. For example, it was Muslims who discovered algebra (a word that comes from the Arabic word al-jabr).

 

[tm21]

Aristotle’s works were largely unknown until the 14th/15th centuries. They were first translated by Muslims (who discovered them) and then provided to the West who made translations to Latin. St. Thomas Aquinas (15th century) used them extensively. I’m sure you might be able to find some Catholic theologians who resisted their use, but none of them prevailed. This is actually a case of Muslims and Christians theologians working together. To portray this as Catholics stealing from Muslims is a gross misrepresentation.

 

[Thorolfr]

Muslims were also ahead of Christian Europe in astronomy, navigation, etc. For example, different kinds of astrolabes which were used for navigation and astronomy came from the Muslims world:

The first person credited with building the astrolabe in the Islamic world is reportedly the 8th-century mathematician Muhammad al-Fazari.[14] The mathematical background was established by the Muslim astronomer Albatenius in his treatise Kitab az-Zij (ca. 920 AD), which was translated into Latin by Plato Tiburtinus (De Motu Stellarum). The earliest surviving dated astrolabe is dated AH 315 (927/8 AD). In the Islamic world, astrolabes were used to find the times of sunrise and the rising of fixed stars, to help schedule morning prayers (salat). In the 10th century, al-Sufi first described over 1,000 different uses of an astrolabe, in areas as diverse as astronomy, astrology, navigation, surveying, timekeeping, prayer, Salat, Qibla, etc.[15][16]

The spherical astrolabe, a variation of both the astrolabe and the armillary sphere, was invented during the Middle Ages by astronomers and inventors in the Islamic world.[d] The earliest description of the spherical astrolabe dates back to Al-Nayrizi (fl. 892–902). In the 12th century, Sharaf al-Dīn al-Tūsī invented the linear astrolabe, sometimes called the “staff of al-Tusi,” which was “a simple wooden rod with graduated markings but without sights. It was furnished with a plumb line and a double chord for making angular measurements and bore a perforated pointer.”[17] The first geared mechanical astrolabe was later invented by Abi Bakr of Isfahan in 1235

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrolabe

 

[phil19034]

Aristotle’s works were largely unknown until the 14th/15th centuries. They were first translated by Muslims (who discovered them) and then provided to the West who made translations to Latin. St. Thomas Aquinas (15th century) used them extensively. I’m sure you might be able to find some Catholic theologians who resisted their use, but none of them prevailed. This is actually a case of Muslims and Christians theologians working together. To portray this as Catholics stealing from Muslims is a gross misrepresentation.

St. Thomas Aquinas was born in 1225 – and died on 7 March 1274.

He was not a 15th century person and he used Aristotle a lot, referring to him as simply “The Philosopher.”

 

[Thorolfr]

St. Thomas Aquinas was born in 1225 – and died on 7 March 1274.

He was not a 15th century person and he used Aristotle a lot, referring to him as simply “The Philosopher.”

Thomas Aquinas certainly relied on the Arabic works of Averroes (i.e. Ibn Rushd) translated into Latin, although he also used some Greek works which had been translated directly from Greek into Latin by Willem van Moerbeke. See the article on “Transmission of the Greek Classics” in Wikipedia.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_of_the_Greek_Classics