Change does not exist

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Bahman

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I start a discussion with Vico and we both agree with the fact the time does not exist. S/he got another position that the change does not exist either.

Your thought?
 
I would say time and change exists. Time is a measurement of a change between 2 points of time or present moments. Distance is the measurement between 2 points in space. Not many would deny that distance is real. There is no floating measure stick that exists to describe that distance. The measurement of distance is our own abstraction. But, it is an abstraction that describes a real physical phenomenon. There really is a distance traveled between 2 points in space. Similarly, in the passage of time there is a real measurable ‘distance’ that is traveled. Even if one is doing nothing one is still travelling this distance, like one is sitting on a train that always travels the same speed. Always 24h in a day.

Change is of course observable. Not many would deny it. Parmenides thought change was impossible because he thought it would require something coming into existence from nothing… Aristotle wrote that it doesn’t require something coming into existence from nothing. But that a thing can change if it has the potential to change that is actualized by something else. Such that the potential to change in a certain way is a feature of that thing. The ball’s potential to bounce is actualized when I drop it onto the ground for instance. This is a feature of the ball that is activated when I drop it. It didn’t require something coming into existence because the potential already existed in the ball. It just needed an external action like me dropping it to actualize that potential.
 
Bahman said:
I start a discussion with Vico and we both agree with the fact the time does not exist. S/he got another position that the change does not exist either.

Your thought?
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Well. When I first came to this thread it was 7:05. I came back at 7:30 and it had changed adding responses.

So time and change exist.
 
Without change (or time), you’re sure going to put a crimp on differential calculus.

Blessings,
Stephie
 
This thread lacks context. How do you expect anyone new to the conversation to be able to participate?
 
So is the poster who denies change kind of following David Hume’s idea that there is no cause and effect? There are just “pictures” and the “picture” of the door open is followed by the “picture” of the door closed with a hand on the nob? They are unrelated but we related them in our mind? That is quite the interesting position to say the least.
 
dshix said:
This thread lacks context. How do you expect anyone new to the conversation to be able to participate?
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👍

Forgive me, OP, but I suspect you may have misunderstood Vico. Perhaps you are generalizing something he said when he was only speaking about certain conditions.

Of course time and change exist in our universe. How anyone could deny that without utterly throwing out rational thought is waaaaay beyond my pay scale.
 
LaetenturCaeli said:
👍

Forgive me, OP, but I suspect you may have misunderstood Vico. Perhaps you are generalizing something he said when he was only speaking about certain conditions.

Of course time and change exist in our universe. How anyone could deny that without utterly throwing out rational thought is waaaaay beyond my pay scale.
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If I understood it correctly it was in relation to the existence outside of time, and Bahman stating that Heaven cannot be outside of time because the only way something can be outside time is to be changeless.
Ergo God would have to be physically “frozen” for God and Heaven to be outside time since that according to Bahman’s definitiom is the only way something can exist outside of time.

The statement was in regards to our perception of time/change being illusion to us vs the grand level of existence beyond such.
 
It occurs to me that time is needed for change to occur. God, who is outside of time created time to allow for change to be possible. Like his intention was to create creatures who could experience change.
 
fisherman_carl said:
It occurs to me that time is needed for change to occur. God, who is outside of time created time to allow for change to be possible. Like his intention was to create creatures who could experience change.
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We have all seen those movies where someone has the ability to freeze time, while they can walk around, and everyone else is frozen. Without time there could be no change as everything would be frozen like those people.
 
Bahman said:
I start a discussion with Vico and we both agree with the fact the time does not exist. S/he got another position that the change does not exist either.

Your thought?
Click to expand...
Please, come to an agreement soon! I am concerned with the changes in the exchange rate these days; but if you decide that change does not exist as you have agreed that time is just a kind of changing illusion, then I will be able to sleep peacefully: Those who speak of variations in the exchange rate will be liars.

But if finally you change your mind and agree with Vico, what will it mean?
 
Jon_S said:
Well. When I first came to this thread it was 7:05. I came back at 7:30 and it had changed adding responses.
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And yet according Christians, in God’s eye nothing has changed. The future has always been there, as have the present and the past. To you things have changed, but to God, nothing has…ever. So which view is correct…yours…or God’s?
 
Isn’t there a view called scientific creationism that accounts for the fossil record and thus time itself in one swoop?
I say that yesterday my vehicle had a full tank of fuel, whereas now, two days later, it holds only a half tank.
I think that this is objective proof that the fuel level in my vehicle has changed.
Yet I can not actually locate the full tank of two days ago.
My neighbor says that must have been born yesterday if I’m wasting time and fuel looking for that full tank.
I’m not sure, Maybe I was born just now with all the memories of a full life, including the memory of filling my tank.
Since this premise holds “true” as an “explanation” at all times, there is no way to quantify change except through faith.
 
fisherman_carl said:
It occurs to me that time is needed for change to occur. God, who is outside of time created time to allow for change to be possible. Like his intention was to create creatures who could experience change.
Click to expand...
Eccl 3:11
God has made everything appropriate to its time, but has put the timeless into their hearts so they cannot find out, from beginning to end, the work which God has done.
“Cannot find out” must mean “measure”, “weigh”, etc.
 
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