Chris Christie discusses birth control, Catholic faith in New Hampshire

[zz912]

The Church, Christie is basically saying, shouldn’t have a vote in his sex life (fair enough, he’s most definitely not alone even among Catholics), but is does that one’s boss should have a say in someone else’s (eg he’s loudly affirmed the Hobby Lobby decision, where the Supreme Court found that an employer should be able to deny contraception coverage based on their religious beliefs).

The employer has the right to offer insurance plans they choose to their employees. You have no right to force them to offer benefits that are evil or violate their conscience.

As the anti-choice movement

I see you are taking an antagonistic approach today. What “choice” are we opposing? No one has the right to “choose” to kill an innocent human being.

swings towards opposition to contraception altogether,

Could you list out the candidates who have stated this as their platform?

how is it that suddenly it’s a “moderate” position for someone like Christie to effectively say that safe sex is a luxury and that it should only be available to those who can afford it out of pocket rather than as part of normal health care?

Contraception is not health care. Contraception is about making perfectly functioning organs stop working properly. That’s the opposite of health care.

And this claim of “safe sex” is a complete lie of the left. Abortion, STD’s, out-of-wedlock births, divorce, cohabitation…all have skyrocketed from the “safe sex” lie.

This ridiculous (frankly disgusting) attitude conveniently ignores the problem that everyone suffers when individual women (regardless of their own income level) don’t have the ability to make their own reproductive health care decisions. Unintended pregnancy costs the US public over $12Bn a year (considering publicly-funded births and associated care - ironically, mostly in Republican-leaning states). There’s one contribution to the overall budget deficit that could vanish overnight if contraception was treated as a right rather than a luxury.

Citing the research arm of Planned Parenthood for your statistics is laughable. And the explosion of societal problems has been the RESULT of “safe sex” and they are not solved by it.

I’m not saying by the way that it’s ok for Christie to present himself as a good and faithful Catholic and then say “well actually I am except for the contraception thing…”.

Glad we agree, because he’s not. A person who willfully rejects Church teaching is not a faithful Catholic.

But this is where political and religious beliefs should be kept well apart.

This is impossible, and frankly insulting. I refuse to concede the political realm to the immoral and atheistic view, which is what you are proposing.

Sex shoudln’t be a have vs have-not issue, which is what people like Christie wants to make it. In reality, it’s a normal part of almost everyone’s life. Being judgemental about it isn’t going to change a thing…

No one is stopping people from having sex. They should accept the consequences of those decisions to have sex, good or bad. And they should listen to the Church when she says that sex is only for marriage. Outside of that, it is harmful.

 

[zz912]

“My church has a teaching against birth control. Does that make me an awful Catholic, because I believed and practiced that function during part of my life?” he asked.

Yes, yes it does. Now repent of your evil views and actions, and go to Confession.

 

[ringil]

It sounds like he is trying to get a little attention, which he probably desperately needs because his chances now are slim to none and slim is getting ready to leave town.

Though I have problems with his statement here. I actually like the guy- one of the only GOP I can say that about.

 

[ringil]

So he basically admitted he unrepentant, at least that what he seems to be saying.

Donald Trump also stated that he has never asked for forgiveness for wrongs he has done.

He stated this at some right wing “family” council- can’t recall which.

 

[JimG]

The governor’s contraceptive practices are not anyone’s business, but since he decided to bring it up, perhaps someone should give him this book for its educational value as to the social and political policy results of contraception.

 

[gracepoole]

Yes, yes it does. Now repent of your evil views and actions, and go to Confession.

He asked if using ABC makes him an “awful Catholic” and you’ve claimed it does. Yet none of us is qualified to make this kind of blanket assessment. And if anything, he himself has noted that one day he will in fact be judged for this choice. I’d wager most of us here are “awful Catholics” to one degree or another.

The governor’s contraceptive practices are not anyone’s business, but since he decided to bring it up

I’m guessing here but it seems more likely that someone else brought it up and he responded to it. Most candidates don’t just launch into a discussion of his or her religious failings unless prompted to do so.

 

[JimG]

He asked if using ABC makes him an “awful Catholic” and you’ve claimed it does. Yet none of us is qualified to make this kind of blanket assessment. And if anything, he himself has noted that one day he will in fact be judged for this choice. I’d wager most of us here are “awful Catholics” to one degree or another.

I’m guessing here but it seems more likely that someone else brought it up and he responded to it. Most candidates don’t just launch into a discussion of his or her religious failings unless prompted to do so.

You may be right, but knowing Christie’s persona, if he were asked such a personal question, I’m thinking that the proper response would be “None of your business!”

And if bringing the question into the open helps to illuminate the adverse social consequences of the sexual revolution, enabled by contraception, that’s a public policy matter worth discussing.

 

[Cider]

He asked if using ABC makes him an “awful Catholic” and you’ve claimed it does. Yet none of us is qualified to make this kind of blanket assessment. And if anything, he himself has noted that one day he will in fact be judged for this choice. I’d wager most of us here are “awful Catholics” to one degree or another.

I’m guessing here but it seems more likely that someone else brought it up and he responded to it. Most candidates don’t just launch into a discussion of his or her religious failings unless prompted to do so.

Except that he flat out told reporters “none of your business” regarding his school choice decisions for his children when questioned, yet he chooses to admit to BC usage while reminding people that it’s against church teaching. So he has already proven he has no problem telling people to bugger off when they ask questions he doesn’t want to answer. So what was his agenda for answering this one on BC?

 

[Sy_Noe]

Glad we agree, because he’s not. A person who willfully rejects Church teaching is not a faithful Catholic.

So 82 -98% of Catholics are not faithful, practicing Catholics?

politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/feb/17/keeping-facts-straight-98-catholic-women/

lifesitenews.com/news/gallup-82-of-catholics-say-contraception-is-morally-acceptable

Is this considered a grave matter? And if so, should Catholics who use such birth control as Christie was talking about and they have full knowledge and consent, refrain from receiving the Eucharist?

 

[JimG]

Do most Catholics sin? Never, sometimes, often? Of course they do. That doesn’t make them not Catholic. The more pertinent question is whether Catholics try to be countercultural by following Church teaching, instead of giving in to a degraded culture. Only by following Church teaching can they hope to save the culture.

 

[gracepoole]

Except that he flat out told reporters “none of your business” regarding his school choice decisions for his children when questioned, yet he chooses to admit to BC usage while reminding people that it’s against church teaching. So he has already proven he has no problem telling people to bugger off when they ask questions he doesn’t want to answer. So what was his agenda for answering this one on BC?

Is your issue, then, that he didn’t tell people to “bugger off” when presumably asked about his adherence to the faith? He did acknowledge that his use of ABC is/was against Church teaching and he didn’t, to my knowledge, tell others to engage in the same practice. I think I’d prefer this kind of honesty as opposed to the pretense usually offered by Catholic politicians.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Do most Catholics sin? Never, sometimes, often? Of course they do. That doesn’t make them not Catholic. The more pertinent question is whether Catholics try to be countercultural by following Church teaching, instead of giving in to a degraded culture. Only by following Church teaching can they hope to save the culture.

Of course sinning doesn’t make them not Catholic. Who’s saying that? That wasn’t the question.

 

[Cider]

Is your issue, then, that he didn’t tell people to “bugger off” when presumably asked about his adherence to the faith? He did acknowledge that his use of ABC is/was against Church teaching and he didn’t, to my knowledge, tell others to engage in the same practice. I think I’d prefer this kind of honesty as opposed to the pretense usually offered by Catholic politicians.

I think he turned his private sin into a public sin and compounded it by not being publicly repentant and instead justified the sin and thereby by example made himself open to be culpable of others sin through defending the ill done. He’s a public figure who is justifying sin, and IMO he’s doing it to further his political campaign.

 

[zz912]

So 82 -98% of Catholics are not faithful, practicing Catholics?

Assuming those stats are accurate in the polls, then yes. By definition they are not practicing the faith when they use BC. Same as the large majority of Catholics who don’t go to Mass every Sunday.

Not sure why that is even a question. If you are refusing the practice the faith, then you AREN’T a practicing Catholic.

Is this considered a grave matter?

Yes

And if so, should Catholics who use such birth control as Christie was talking about and they have full knowledge and consent, refrain from receiving the Eucharist?

Yes

 

[zz912]

He asked if using ABC makes him an “awful Catholic” and you’ve claimed it does. Yet none of us is qualified to make this kind of blanket assessment. And if anything, he himself has noted that one day he will in fact be judged for this choice. I’d wager most of us here are “awful Catholics” to one degree or another.

I would absolutely hope that most Catholics would be able to rightly judge the situation here, and conclude that Gov Christie is not a practicing Catholic, by definition. And if “awful” is being used synonymously with “non-practicing” or “unfaithful”, then it absolutely applies. He states he defied Church teaching, and doesn’t admit he was wrong about it or that he repents of it. He merely states he will be judged IF he’s wrong about it. Well he objectively IS wrong about it, and the fact that he doesn’t know if he’s wrong about it (and thereby doesn’t know if the Church is right) makes him a “bad” or unfaithful Catholic.

Not sure why this is controversial in the least.

I am glad that he is at least honest about it, and doesn’t try to claim he does follow Church teaching. Hopefully he will repent of his views and actions and make a good Confession, and be restored to a state of grace.

As to most Catholics here and whether they are “awful”, I would disagree with that characterization. That’s not to say we don’t sin, but that when we do, we recognize we’ve done wrong, and go to Confession with a repentant heart. We don’t refuse to repent and just shrug it off and leave the issue until our judgment day.

 

[gracepoole]

I think he turned his private sin into a public sin and compounded it by not being publicly repentant and instead justified the sin and thereby by example made himself open to be culpable of others sin through defending the ill done. He’s a public figure who is justifying sin, and IMO he’s doing it to further his political campaign.

I disagree that he’s justified his sin. He simply noted that he disagrees with the Church on this issue and will be judged by God for his use of ABC.

 

[Cider]

So 82 -98% of Catholics are not faithful, practicing Catholics?

politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/feb/17/keeping-facts-straight-98-catholic-women/

lifesitenews.com/news/gallup-82-of-catholics-say-contraception-is-morally-acceptable

Is this considered a grave matter? And if so, should Catholics who use such birth control as Christie was talking about and they have full knowledge and consent, refrain from receiving the Eucharist?

Yes, using birth control is grave matter and yes one is expected to refrain from receiving the eucharist when one is in a state of unrepentant sin.

CCC

1440 Sin is before all else an offense against God, a rupture of communion with him. At the same time it damages communion with the Church. For this reason conversion entails both God’s forgiveness and reconciliation with the Church, which are expressed and accomplished liturgically by the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation.38

1450 "Penance requires . . . the sinner to endure all things willingly, be contrite of heart, confess with the lips, and practice complete humility and fruitful satisfaction."49

1456 Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance: “All mortal sins of which penitents after a diligent self-examination are conscious must be recounted by them in confession, even if they are most secret and have been committed against the last two precepts of the Decalogue; for these sins sometimes wound the soul more grievously and are more dangerous than those which are committed openly.”

1457 According to the Church’s command, "after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year."56 Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession.

In Humanae Vitae, Pope Paul VI stated, “[W]e must once again declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun, and, above all, directly willed and procured abortion, even if for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as licit means of regulating birth. **Equally to be excluded, as the teaching authority of the Church has frequently declared, is direct sterilization, whether perpetual or temporary, whether of the man or of the woman. Similarly excluded is every action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” (HV 14). **

This was reiterated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: “[E]very action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible is intrinsically evil” (CCC 2370). “Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means . . . for example, direct sterilization or contraception” (CCC 2399).

The Church also has affirmed that the illicitness of contraception is an infallible doctrine: **“The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity, it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative.aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive.aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life” (Vademecum for Confessors 2:4, Feb. 12, 1997).
**

 

[JimG]

He might have made bigger headlines if he had noted that the widespread use of contraception, a practice universally condemned by every Christian denomination up until 1930, had enabled the sexual revolution, and led in a direct line to more promiscuity, abortion, the destruction of marriage, and enabled same sex marriage.

 

[Murmurs]

I would absolutely hope that most Catholics would be able to rightly judge the situation here, and conclude that Gov Christie is not a practicing Catholic, by definition. And if “awful” is being used synonymously with “non-practicing” or “unfaithful”, then it absolutely applies. He states he defied Church teaching, and doesn’t admit he was wrong about it or that he repents of it. He merely states he will be judged IF he’s wrong about it. Well he objectively IS wrong about it, and the fact that he doesn’t know if he’s wrong about it (and thereby doesn’t know if the Church is right) makes him a “bad” or unfaithful Catholic.

Not sure why this is controversial in the least.

I am glad that he is at least honest about it, and doesn’t try to claim he does follow Church teaching. Hopefully he will repent of his views and actions and make a good Confession, and be restored to a state of grace.

As to most Catholics here and whether they are “awful”, I would disagree with that characterization. That’s not to say we don’t sin, but that when we do, we recognize we’ve done wrong, and go to Confession with a repentant heart. We don’t refuse to repent and just shrug it off and leave the issue until our judgment day.

Of course it was partly (largely? entirely?) a political statement far more than it was a religious one. Given the greater majority of Catholics find some way or other to justify to themselves and their spouse, the use of some means of ABC, perhaps he’s appealing to them as much as anyone else (“I’m like you, I disagree with and directly disobey this teaching,” and moreover its a signal by yet another Catholic (or “Catholic”) presidential candidate that “I will not be wholly moved in exercising this office by what the Pope says”).

I agree with the point he’s a “bad” Catholic (no more so than most married Catholics on this issue, though I’m not saying that is a justification), particularly in the not-knowing-the-Church-is-right regard. That - the inerrancy of the Church’s teaching - is kind of what makes a Catholic a Catholic, as distinct from other Christians, surely?

He is such an innately arrogant man (at least in public) I can almost forgive him the not-admitting he’s wrong thing.

Your opening sentence is an interesting one to think about - he is yes a "bad Catholic" for behaving as he did (and presumably still would if it was necessary?). But "good Catholic" for many if not most Catholics has been boiled down to "Sunday Obligation Catholic" and perhaps quite often, "strong nod towards pro-life causes Catholic". I am sure this is something I can be guilty of too (though I hope I recognise and work to get away from it)...but it's something that it's all too easy to end up feeling. When so much of day-to-day external Catholicity is bound up with the Mass, it's not hard to see how "being a good Catholic" ends up meaning someone who has an awareness of one's own soul (perhaps - but goes to Confession semi-regularly anyway because one knows one ought), is charitable according to their means, makes sure they and their families turn up on Sundays.

Gov. Christie I think isn't to be personally blamed too strongly for his attitude towards this; it's symptomatic of the attitude of most Catholics, everywhere. "Practicing" has come to mean "externally showing" and nothing more.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Assuming those stats are accurate in the polls, then yes. By definition they are not practicing the faith when they use BC. Same as the large majority of Catholics who don’t go to Mass every Sunday.

Not sure why that is even a question. If you are refusing the practice the faith, then you AREN’T a practicing Catholic.

That’s what I thought. I always read and hear so much about Catholics who vote for pro choice Democrats and pro choice Catholic politicians and gay marriage, so I just wanted someone to come out and say that Catholics who practice ABC are also unfaithful or non practicing and shouldn’t receive Communion. Thanks.