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dts
Guest
Is anyone here involved in Classical Christian Education using the Trivium? Do you know any Catholics that are?
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Schmuck
Guest
There is a website “Mother of Divine Grace” which provides material for “Catholic Classical Education” (Trivium for Catholics). The author of a great guide book, I think it’s called “How to Design your own Classical Curriculum” (for Catholics), Laura Berquist, now runs this site too.
I tend to mostly follow this Trivium Method but have slowly gotten more into the Scholastic method over the years (so it’s a bit eclectic really and not purely based upon the Trivium). The website should be helpful as a starting point for you.
I tend to mostly follow this Trivium Method but have slowly gotten more into the Scholastic method over the years (so it’s a bit eclectic really and not purely based upon the Trivium). The website should be helpful as a starting point for you.
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dts
Guest
Thanks. I was aware of the two resources you mentioned, but it seems as though there are not many Catholic resources on the time honored method of the Trivium compared to some of the Protestant sources. The Catholic church led the way with the trivium for a thousand years. What happened to all that heritage?
What do you mean by “Scholastic” method?
What do you mean by “Scholastic” method?
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Makerteacher
Guest
DTS
Our small private Catholic school is a classical school, though since we only go through the 8th grade we don’t get to do a lot of the last stage. It took about three years to get the parents to understand what we meant by classical education and we are still working to educate some of them about it. Lots of thinking and writing and primary sources. I teach world history with NO textbooks at the middle school level. Parents were shocked at first but now they love it.
We based our curriculum on the book by Susan Wise Bauer, The Well-Educated Mind: A Guide to the Classical Education You Never Had. That said, it is explicitly NOT religious in nature. You are correct in that there is a dearth of Catholic materials available on this topic.
Part of the problem, IMHO, is that it is **harder by far ** to teach this way, so the interest level is low. To me, that’s also a good thing, because it means only really devoted teachers will pursue this pathway. No more worksheets, yeah!!
I attended the Classical education training seminars held by the LOGOS school folks up in Moscow Idaho two summers ago. They are solidly Protestant (evangelical) and in some ways anti-Catholic, though not overtly, and admitted to me that they were stunned to find Catholics at their seminars. I learned a LOT that week, and was impressed with much of what I saw, but was constantly on guard too. Their materials can be very helpful, though some of it is heretical IMHO; they are well intentioned and sincere Christians who pursue academic excellence with good success.
I’d be happy to correspond more with you on this topic. **It is a passion of mine, to renew classical education within the Catholic schools system. **
Our small private Catholic school is a classical school, though since we only go through the 8th grade we don’t get to do a lot of the last stage. It took about three years to get the parents to understand what we meant by classical education and we are still working to educate some of them about it. Lots of thinking and writing and primary sources. I teach world history with NO textbooks at the middle school level. Parents were shocked at first but now they love it.
We based our curriculum on the book by Susan Wise Bauer, The Well-Educated Mind: A Guide to the Classical Education You Never Had. That said, it is explicitly NOT religious in nature. You are correct in that there is a dearth of Catholic materials available on this topic.
Part of the problem, IMHO, is that it is **harder by far ** to teach this way, so the interest level is low. To me, that’s also a good thing, because it means only really devoted teachers will pursue this pathway. No more worksheets, yeah!!
I attended the Classical education training seminars held by the LOGOS school folks up in Moscow Idaho two summers ago. They are solidly Protestant (evangelical) and in some ways anti-Catholic, though not overtly, and admitted to me that they were stunned to find Catholics at their seminars. I learned a LOT that week, and was impressed with much of what I saw, but was constantly on guard too. Their materials can be very helpful, though some of it is heretical IMHO; they are well intentioned and sincere Christians who pursue academic excellence with good success.
I’d be happy to correspond more with you on this topic. **It is a passion of mine, to renew classical education within the Catholic schools system. **
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proud2bcatholic
Guest
Could somebody please expand on what these terms mean: Classical, Trivium, Scholastic.
Thank you. I am not married, but my girlfriend and I have been dating for 5 years. We are both devout Catholics and have been thinking about the possibility of homeschooling when/if the time comes. So any help on this issue would be very appreciative.
Thank you. I am not married, but my girlfriend and I have been dating for 5 years. We are both devout Catholics and have been thinking about the possibility of homeschooling when/if the time comes. So any help on this issue would be very appreciative.
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UxoretMater
Guest
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Makerteacher
Guest
The following summary is made up of clips from various classical education web sites, books, and essays. I hope it is helpful. It is a rough summary and there is so much more to say. But I don’t want to post an eight page thesis! Feel free to email me for more info. You could also do a web search for classical and trivium and get a lot more info that way.
I have to break this into two parts as the system won’t accept this long post.
The **classical method ** was born in the ancient Greece and Rome, and it was used throughout the Western world until a mere 50 or 75 years ago. This used to be how everyone in the West learned! Basically, when using a classical style of education, a child is taught how to learn, and how to think clearly. There is no greater task for education than to teach students how to learn. The classical method develops independent learning skills on the foundation of language, logic, and tangible fact. This style of education cultivates reasoning and articulate students, who are able to develop facts into arguments and convey those arguments clearly and persuasively. Usually, classical education will include the following: very rigorous academic standards; a dedication to order and discipline; key, “lost” subjects, especially Latin; formal speech (this is NOT public speaking); and an intense focus on logic and writing.
To apply this to day to day learning: in my history classroom, (middle school level) we use no textbooks and no worksheets. We read a great deal of primary sources, several fictional books from each time period, and we do lots of logical analysis of what we read. We do in-depth research and loads of writing. The kids draw maps, do simulations, and write and defend opinions about people and events in history. It is far more challenging than your standard social studies textbook. (BTW, I despise that phrase, “social studies.” I am a HISTORY teacher. So there!)
The word trivium literally means “the three-fold way or road.” The trivium refers to the three stages, or ways, of learning that coincide with a child’s cognitive development as he matures. The three formal classical stages of the Trivium are Grammar, Logic (sometimes called Dialectic), and Rhetoric. Naturally there is a great deal of overlap in these stages, and some children will progress at different rates.
See next post for details on those three stages.
I have to break this into two parts as the system won’t accept this long post.
The **classical method ** was born in the ancient Greece and Rome, and it was used throughout the Western world until a mere 50 or 75 years ago. This used to be how everyone in the West learned! Basically, when using a classical style of education, a child is taught how to learn, and how to think clearly. There is no greater task for education than to teach students how to learn. The classical method develops independent learning skills on the foundation of language, logic, and tangible fact. This style of education cultivates reasoning and articulate students, who are able to develop facts into arguments and convey those arguments clearly and persuasively. Usually, classical education will include the following: very rigorous academic standards; a dedication to order and discipline; key, “lost” subjects, especially Latin; formal speech (this is NOT public speaking); and an intense focus on logic and writing.
To apply this to day to day learning: in my history classroom, (middle school level) we use no textbooks and no worksheets. We read a great deal of primary sources, several fictional books from each time period, and we do lots of logical analysis of what we read. We do in-depth research and loads of writing. The kids draw maps, do simulations, and write and defend opinions about people and events in history. It is far more challenging than your standard social studies textbook. (BTW, I despise that phrase, “social studies.” I am a HISTORY teacher. So there!)
The word trivium literally means “the three-fold way or road.” The trivium refers to the three stages, or ways, of learning that coincide with a child’s cognitive development as he matures. The three formal classical stages of the Trivium are Grammar, Logic (sometimes called Dialectic), and Rhetoric. Naturally there is a great deal of overlap in these stages, and some children will progress at different rates.
See next post for details on those three stages.
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Makerteacher
Guest
(continued!)
As you can tell I am a bit passionate about classical education. I only wish it had been the way I was educated. I assure you that I am learning as much as my students do!
I hope this has helped some.
- In the grammar stage, a child has a natural affinity for storing up a tremendous amount of information on any number of things, from nursery rhymes to math facts, and recalling that information at will. Some has referred to hese years as the “Polly Parrot years.” (see Dorothy Sayers’ wonderful book, The Lost Tools of Learning) This corresponds roughly to the ages from toddler to roughly fourth or fifth grade.
- He will then progress to the stage termed the logic or dialectic, where his abilities to reason are honed and sharpened, and everything is turned into an exercise in argumentation. A child at this stage is learning to draw conclusions, make inferences and deductions, understand cause and effect, analyze and synthesize information, and write a defensible opinion paper. These are usually your pre teens and early teens (roughly 5th through 9th grades).
- And lastly he will advance to the rhetoric stage, where articulation and expression are the focus, and where cognition becomes mature. A student at the end of this stage should have become a logical thinker and proficient learner who is able to eloquently express his ideas, both verbally and in writing. He should also be able to sort through information he has received and determine whether or not it is true, trustworthy, or twisted. This corresponds roughly to high school and college aged students.
As you can tell I am a bit passionate about classical education. I only wish it had been the way I was educated. I assure you that I am learning as much as my students do!
I hope this has helped some.
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UxoretMater
Guest
WOW! Thanks, MakerTeacher, for posting all that! I am exhausted just looking at your posts!:clapping:
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dts
Guest
MakerTeacher thanks for your comments. I would love to talk to you about this more. I am currently in RCIA coming from a Reformed Calvinist background. My heart is for Classical Christian education. A year or two ago, I even put up a website on it here:
classicalchristian.info
I have followed the group in Moscow, Idaho closely and continue to do so. But, as you indicated they are Reformed and Catholic schools may not become members of the accrediting association per the statement of faith which references sola scripture and sola fide.
I am disappointed in Catholics for largely abandoning Classical Christian education. It appears they have, in many ways, forsaken their heritage for modern pop psychology.
I am stopping this post and starting another to continue my message.
classicalchristian.info
I have followed the group in Moscow, Idaho closely and continue to do so. But, as you indicated they are Reformed and Catholic schools may not become members of the accrediting association per the statement of faith which references sola scripture and sola fide.
I am disappointed in Catholics for largely abandoning Classical Christian education. It appears they have, in many ways, forsaken their heritage for modern pop psychology.
I am stopping this post and starting another to continue my message.
D
dts
Guest
As I began, exploring the Catholic faith, I realized that a complete Classical Christian Education in accordance with the best that Western Civilization has to offer can only occur in a Catholic context. In fact, my study of Classical Education led me to an interest in learning more about the Catholic faith.
One of my first stops along the way was the discovery of the nature of the Eucharist as being an ongoing heavenly conversation as set forth in Scott Hahn’s book, “The Lamb’s Supper.” That book set me on fire. It created a whole new perspective in my mind about the nature of the church and its role here on earth. Sunday was no longer merely an hour to sit through a fruitless sermon. Hahn’s book, along with many other great works, caused me to realize that I could no longer be a Protestant.
My passion for Classical Christian Education continues, but I am trying to find like minded Catholics. They are few and far between.
Recently, I made an astounding discovery concerning the nature of education and its relationship to our faith.
The Trivium (art of grammar, art of logic, and art of rhetoric) lays the foundation for all knowledge and communication. Without each of these components, education and knowledge cannot occur. Anytime learning is occurring each of these arts is occurring even if in an unsophistacted fashion.
For some rigorous and very mechanical Catholic insights into this basic nature of the Tirivum, I recommend:
The Trivium: The Liberal Arts of Logic, Grammar, and Rhetoric
Sister Miriam Joseph ed. by Marguerite McGlinn
Paul Dry Books, Philadelphia 2002 (ISBN 0-9679675-03)
amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967967503/qid=1088049308/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-3715496-1524667
I will continue in a third post . . . .
One of my first stops along the way was the discovery of the nature of the Eucharist as being an ongoing heavenly conversation as set forth in Scott Hahn’s book, “The Lamb’s Supper.” That book set me on fire. It created a whole new perspective in my mind about the nature of the church and its role here on earth. Sunday was no longer merely an hour to sit through a fruitless sermon. Hahn’s book, along with many other great works, caused me to realize that I could no longer be a Protestant.
My passion for Classical Christian Education continues, but I am trying to find like minded Catholics. They are few and far between.
Recently, I made an astounding discovery concerning the nature of education and its relationship to our faith.
The Trivium (art of grammar, art of logic, and art of rhetoric) lays the foundation for all knowledge and communication. Without each of these components, education and knowledge cannot occur. Anytime learning is occurring each of these arts is occurring even if in an unsophistacted fashion.
For some rigorous and very mechanical Catholic insights into this basic nature of the Tirivum, I recommend:
The Trivium: The Liberal Arts of Logic, Grammar, and Rhetoric
Sister Miriam Joseph ed. by Marguerite McGlinn
Paul Dry Books, Philadelphia 2002 (ISBN 0-9679675-03)
amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967967503/qid=1088049308/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-3715496-1524667
I will continue in a third post . . . .
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Ipso_Facto
Guest
This topic is very interesting, I agree that this method is far harder to teach, and as more babies arrived I got more sucked into the “Seton” (scholastic) style texts. In ways I regret having not tried harder and persisted in the Trivium method, but unapproving in-law pressure played it’s part too. The Trivium, although far superior in my opinion, does not provide the modern idea of concrete results. And “outsiders” tend to disapprove if they are unable to measure progress.
I was wondering if anyone of you knows if it works applying the “Trivium” up to about the end of grade 8 then handing over the student to be enrolled in say Seton homeschool for secondary school, or some other course where the parent can be alleviated of most of their supervisory role?
I know that the huge benefits of the latter stage of the “Trivium” are sacrificed doing this but with the responsibilities of babies, toddlers and grade-schoolers all at once, I really feel the need to “hand over” just some of the responsibility (yet still homeschool them all).
If any of you have some advice or experience with this “change-over” system I would appreciate you sharing with me.
Thanks!
I was wondering if anyone of you knows if it works applying the “Trivium” up to about the end of grade 8 then handing over the student to be enrolled in say Seton homeschool for secondary school, or some other course where the parent can be alleviated of most of their supervisory role?
I know that the huge benefits of the latter stage of the “Trivium” are sacrificed doing this but with the responsibilities of babies, toddlers and grade-schoolers all at once, I really feel the need to “hand over” just some of the responsibility (yet still homeschool them all).
If any of you have some advice or experience with this “change-over” system I would appreciate you sharing with me.
Thanks!
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dts
Guest
While the Trivium provides the tools for all learning, knowledge, and communication, only the Christian faith can give meaning and purpose to these things. I have known that for a long time.
For some insights into the nature of this fact (ie. the inseparability of faith from education), I recommend a book by some Presbyterian theologians. Some of the information may be objectionable to Catholics, but the book contains much wisdom.
*Foundations of Christian Education: Addresses to Christian Teachers *
Louis Berkhof, Cornelius Van Til (P & R Publishing 1990)(out of print - available used)
amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0875521142/ref=ase_classicalch07-20/103-3715496-1524667?v=glance&s=books
Recently, I have discovered a whole new aspect of the nature of the relationship between the faith and methods of learning. The Trivium is actually a means of preparing us to engage in the highest form of conversation (earthly and heavenly) which occurs in the Eucharist.
This website for the College of St. Justin Martyr does an excellent job of making the connections (see the vision statement, the four pillars info, and info about the patron Saint):
saintjustinmartyr.org
I was greatly saddened to see that the College of St. Justin Martyr has not gotten off the ground due to scandals involving homosexual priests and corruption in the Scranton diocese.
Yikes. Catholics have a huge and gloriously rich heritage on earth and in heaven. But huge numbers of priests, bishops, and parishioners seem to despise it.
I think restoration of Catholic Classical education is one great means of restoring the heritage and the heavenly vision and presence embodied in the Eucharist. I’m excited, but we desparately need like-minded Catholics.
For some insights into the nature of this fact (ie. the inseparability of faith from education), I recommend a book by some Presbyterian theologians. Some of the information may be objectionable to Catholics, but the book contains much wisdom.
*Foundations of Christian Education: Addresses to Christian Teachers *
Louis Berkhof, Cornelius Van Til (P & R Publishing 1990)(out of print - available used)
amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0875521142/ref=ase_classicalch07-20/103-3715496-1524667?v=glance&s=books
Recently, I have discovered a whole new aspect of the nature of the relationship between the faith and methods of learning. The Trivium is actually a means of preparing us to engage in the highest form of conversation (earthly and heavenly) which occurs in the Eucharist.
This website for the College of St. Justin Martyr does an excellent job of making the connections (see the vision statement, the four pillars info, and info about the patron Saint):
saintjustinmartyr.org
I was greatly saddened to see that the College of St. Justin Martyr has not gotten off the ground due to scandals involving homosexual priests and corruption in the Scranton diocese.
Yikes. Catholics have a huge and gloriously rich heritage on earth and in heaven. But huge numbers of priests, bishops, and parishioners seem to despise it.
I think restoration of Catholic Classical education is one great means of restoring the heritage and the heavenly vision and presence embodied in the Eucharist. I’m excited, but we desparately need like-minded Catholics.
D
dts
Guest
Ipso Facto:
However, I do want to address your suggestion regarding the “modern idea of concrete results.” Until the latter part of the 19th century, nearly everyone was educated classically. In the face of the overwhelming history, I think modern educators are disingenuous to argue that the Trivium doesn’t produce concrete results. I would like to give a more specific answer, but can’t do so unless you offer a little more insight as to what you mean by “concrete results.”
It is very hard to recover our heritage. Unfortunately, I don’t have any quick solutions to that. I guess this is just part of bearing our cross. (My next study will be on the Catholic doctrine of suffering).
However, I do want to address your suggestion regarding the “modern idea of concrete results.” Until the latter part of the 19th century, nearly everyone was educated classically. In the face of the overwhelming history, I think modern educators are disingenuous to argue that the Trivium doesn’t produce concrete results. I would like to give a more specific answer, but can’t do so unless you offer a little more insight as to what you mean by “concrete results.”
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dts
Guest
Building on the post above describing the Trivium, this chart is a succinct reference that might offer a little more insight into its nature:
classicalchristian.info/docs/articles/trivium_chart.htm
classicalchristian.info/docs/articles/trivium_chart.htm
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proud2bcatholic
Guest
makerteacher,
Thank you for that answer. Classical Education sounds very intriguing to me. I wish I would have gone through this method of education.
dts,
I notice that you are from Arizona, so am I. I attend St. Anne’s parish in Gilbert. What parish are you a member of? Are you aware of the possible new Catholic University that Bishop Olmsted wants to build? Wouldn’t it be cool if it was a great books classical University?
I just sent an e-mail to him yesterday pleading with him to do everything humanly possible to make sure that the University is orthodox. Maybe we can also plea with him to take a look at a classical education? What do you think?
Thank you for that answer. Classical Education sounds very intriguing to me. I wish I would have gone through this method of education.
dts,
I notice that you are from Arizona, so am I. I attend St. Anne’s parish in Gilbert. What parish are you a member of? Are you aware of the possible new Catholic University that Bishop Olmsted wants to build? Wouldn’t it be cool if it was a great books classical University?
I just sent an e-mail to him yesterday pleading with him to do everything humanly possible to make sure that the University is orthodox. Maybe we can also plea with him to take a look at a classical education? What do you think?
D
dts
Guest
I am at Our Lady of Joy parish in Carefree, AZ.
I heard about the university, but do not know any details. Is it to be an undergraduate institution open to the general public?
I heard about the university, but do not know any details. Is it to be an undergraduate institution open to the general public?
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proud2bcatholic
Guest
Do not yet know much about it. The Bishop has only stated that he wants to make it happen and that he is putting Msgr. Dale Fushek in charge of getting it started. Therefore, there are no plans yet.
The University is very important to me. I will be leaving in the Fall to go to Franciscan University of Steubenville to pursue a BA, MA, and eventually a PhD in Theology. I am hoping that I can eventually come back and teach at the University.
If we can get enough people to send messages to the Bishop in regards to a Classical Catholic University, along with our prayers, then maybe we can make something happen.
The Bishop has alot of experience with Universities. He was the spiritual director of the North American College in Rome and he was the President of the Josephinum, the only Pontifical University in the US. He also seems to be very orthodox and traditional. Classical education might appeal to him.
However, I have no idea what he has in mind for the focus of this University.
The University is very important to me. I will be leaving in the Fall to go to Franciscan University of Steubenville to pursue a BA, MA, and eventually a PhD in Theology. I am hoping that I can eventually come back and teach at the University.
If we can get enough people to send messages to the Bishop in regards to a Classical Catholic University, along with our prayers, then maybe we can make something happen.
The Bishop has alot of experience with Universities. He was the spiritual director of the North American College in Rome and he was the President of the Josephinum, the only Pontifical University in the US. He also seems to be very orthodox and traditional. Classical education might appeal to him.
However, I have no idea what he has in mind for the focus of this University.
P
proud2bcatholic
Guest
dts,
If you decide to contact the Bishop, you may want to give him the link to the website that you constructed. It is very well done.
If you decide to contact the Bishop, you may want to give him the link to the website that you constructed. It is very well done.
D
dts
Guest
Thanks.
I found this report on the university:
catholicsun.org/archives/2003/may8/catholicUniversity.htm
Apparently, it was originally intended that it would be associated with Lewis University in Chicago:
lewisu.edu/welcome/president.htm
I don’t know if the plans referenced above came to fruition or what impact the installation of a new Bishop may have had.
I found this report on the university:
catholicsun.org/archives/2003/may8/catholicUniversity.htm
Apparently, it was originally intended that it would be associated with Lewis University in Chicago:
lewisu.edu/welcome/president.htm
I don’t know if the plans referenced above came to fruition or what impact the installation of a new Bishop may have had.
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