Clone's

[Giggly_Giraffe]

Would a human clone have a soul?

 

[Stephen_says]

Do you think it wouldn’t?

 

[ericc]

Interesting question. The first thing that popped into my head was “where would that soul come from”. Don’t believe souls go through sub-division. And if there is a soul, at which moment did those cells get ensouled. What happens if some of those ensouled cells in petri dishes get washed down the sink/dumped into garbage bin at the end of the experiment ?

 

[Stephen_says]

Interesting question. The first thing that popped into my head was “where would that soul come from”. Don’t believe souls go through sub-division. And if there is a soul, at which moment did those cells get ensouled. What happens if some of those ensouled cells in petri dishes get washed down the sink/dumped into garbage bin at the end of the experiment ?

That would be called abortion

This is why cloning/stem cell research is so messy.

What about therapeutic cloning? What if we took the nucleus of a skin cell from you to clone stem cells. They would technically be YOUR stem cells, right? So they wouldn’t really have a soul, just like if you were to maybe (forgive the imagery) cut your finger off. the finger doesn’t have a soul, does it? It’s part of you, but not part of you.

Then again, since the original nucleus needs to be implanted into a human ovum to begin dividing, does that make it a completely different person with it’s own soul? Maybe. I guess. I don’t know. Is that the answer? Does each individual ovum get it’s own soul? What about twins? One ovum, two souls.

AI YAI YAI!

 

[porthos11]

Would a human clone have a soul?

Assuming it’s alive, yes.

And no, it would not be the soul of the source. It would have its own soul. In fact, we already have something like that in nature. They’re called identical twins (or triplets, or quadruplets, etc. as the case may be).

That it was made by man playing God does not change the fact that a living human being, even if artificially cloned, has a unique, God-created soul.

 

[CasusPacis]

If I had a clone, and it was actually me, and not braindead or a new person entirely, that would be me. Well, not this me, but it would be another me, independent of mywill and subject to their own desires and morality (which would be mine, but still). Even if it was a new person entirely it would still be a person. The capacity to think, feel, and be. I don’t know what a soul is exactly, but that sounds close enough to me.

But doubtless there would be those who would use their “unnatural” birth as a reason to deny them rights and religious/philosophical/political freedom. Any difference is a lure to those who want power over others, and what easier reason to use to divide people who could be friends and comrades?
I also see people using clones as a way to avoid those pesky moral obligations we tend to have towards children and the young. Not the fault of the clones at all, but still.

 

[ericc]

Assuming it’s alive, yes.

And no, it would not be the soul of the source. It would have its own soul. In fact, we already have something like that in nature. They’re called identical twins (or triplets, or quadruplets, etc. as the case may be).

That it was made by man playing God does not change the fact that a living human being, even if artificially cloned, has a unique, God-created soul.

Why would God generate a soul for someone pretending to be him? Wouldn’t that encourage even more undesirable behaviour from man? Why would God participate in something he detests?

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Not that it answers the question, but people had argued that a child of IVF would not have a soul. I think that was 38 years ago. Now people don’t seem to question it.

As pointed out before a clone of a person would be an identical twin. Well…almost. unless the egg used for the process came from the subjects mother the new person would not have the same mitochondrial DNA.

If I remember correctly a potential problem with cloning is that the telemeres of the source may already have shortened. That has implications on the potential length of life of the new organism.

 

[ericc]

Not that it answers the question, but people had argued that a child of IVF would not have a soul. I think that was 38 years ago. Now people don’t seem to question it.

As pointed out before a clone of a person would be an identical twin. Well…almost. unless the egg used for the process came from the subjects mother the new person would not have the same mitochondrial DNA.

If I remember correctly a potential problem with cloning is that the telemeres of the source may already have shortened. That has implications on the potential length of life of the new organism.

In IVF , there is still conception but in a petri dish. There is a joining of 2 different DNAs. In cloning , none. Since no one knows how a soul is formed, we can not assume that God will think the way we do. He may have his SOP on soul creation. I wonder whether God will allocate a soul for a clone made from a composite of DNAs from different sources. A bit of DNA from A, some portion from B, C, D etc to produce a superior specimen. Not saying whether this is feasible but I don’t see any limit of technology to do that since we already do gene splicing. Purely for discussion sake.

The biological shortcomings of clones is not really related to soul creation. Having said that, cloning of body parts could ironically extend life. Create spares when you are in peak condition and save them for a rainy day when organs start to fail.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

In IVF , there is still conception but in a petri dish. There is a joining of 2 different DNAs. In cloning , none. Since no one knows how a soul is formed, we can not assume that God will think the way we do. He may have his SOP on soul creation. I wonder whether God will allocate a soul for a clone made from a composite of DNAs from different sources. A bit of DNA from A, some portion from B, C, D etc to produce a superior specimen. Not saying whether this is feasible but I don’t see any limit of technology to do that since we already do gene splicing. Purely for discussion sake.

The biological shortcomings of clones is not really related to soul creation. Having said that, cloning of body parts could ironically extend life. Create spares when you are in peak condition and save them for a rainy day when organs start to fail.

When you speak of cloning body parts, do you mean like in 3-d Printing … or cloning only a specific body part … Or clone a whole human and harvesting parts?

How long should we live if given an opportunity to extend life through human harvesting? Would the body part (with or without a soul) have rights too?

 

[mikekle]

When you speak of cloning body parts, do you mean like in 3-d Printing … or cloning only a specific body part … Or clone a whole human and harvesting parts?

How long should we live if given an opportunity to extend life through human harvesting? Would the body part (with or without a soul) have rights too?

"Create spares when you are in peak condition and save them for a rainy day when organs start to fail".

I believe this is what they are working on now, but more along the lines of figuring out a way to ‘download’ a persons consciousness to some kind of storage database and eventually a new body. I saw a news piece about this awhile back, sounded like they were pretty far along and the way they talked, this would be the norm in about 20-30 years.

But we really do not know if the persons ‘downloaded self’ would be an exact replica or something else entirely, I would think in this case the persons soul would be gone once they died, but if science finds a way to transfer consciousness from body to body or body to digital storage, I have no idea if that being would have a soul or not.

I will say, if the soul DOES remain with the persons consciousness, then mankind will have found a way to beat death…something tells me God would never let that succeed.

 

[Wesrock]

Would a human clone have a soul?

Yes, and he should be treated with all the dignity of a human person.

However, cloning is itself immoral. Every child has the right to be born from the love of two parents in the conjugal act.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Would a human clone have a soul?

Yes. All living things have souls.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

"Create spares when you are in peak condition and save them for a rainy day when organs start to fail".

I believe this is what they are working on now, but more along the lines of figuring out a way to ‘download’ a persons consciousness to some kind of storage database and eventually a new body. I saw a news piece about this awhile back, sounded like they were pretty far along and the way they talked, this would be the norm in about 20-30 years.

But we really do not know if the persons ‘downloaded self’ would be an exact replica or something else entirely, I would think in this case the persons soul would be gone once they died, but if science finds a way to transfer consciousness from body to body or body to digital storage, I have no idea if that being would have a soul or not.

I will say, if the soul DOES remain with the persons consciousness, then mankind will have found a way to beat death…something tells me God would never let that succeed.

I was not thinking of “downloaded self”, but that does raise interesting cloning popular jargon
Sectors of the media. Old day, “Tron”, and recent “Avengers” both use a downloaded self as an extended life without a body.

 

[mikekle]

I was not thinking of “downloaded self”, but that does raise interesting cloning popular jargon
Sectors of the media. Old day, “Tron”, and recent “Avengers” both use a downloaded self as an extended life without a body.

Yes, its likely the first step in true cloning.

There was a PBS documentary about this topic a couple years back, a few universities are working on trying to ‘download’ a persons consciousness to some kind of database or computer, but I imagine, down the road, the goal will be to transfer that consciousness into another body, a newer body.

The way they were talking in that show, they were getting pretty close to achieving this, but as I said before, if this is ever done, it will mean mankind has found a way to beat death.

Who knows, maybe 100 or 200 years in the future, if a person gets too old or has severe physical problems, they can go in and simply get their ‘self’ transferred to a new body! I guess they will have ‘human body blanks’ ready to go. lol

Sounds crazy, but who knows what the future holds.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

Yes, its likely the first step in true cloning.

There was a PBS documentary about this topic a couple years back, a few universities are working on trying to ‘download’ a persons consciousness to some kind of database or computer, but I imagine, down the road, the goal will be to transfer that consciousness into another body, a newer body.

The way they were talking in that show, they were getting pretty close to achieving this, but as I said before, if this is ever done, it will mean mankind has found a way to beat death.

Who knows, maybe 100 or 200 years in the future, if a person gets too old or has severe physical problems, they can go in and simply get their ‘self’ transferred to a new body! I guess they will have ‘human body blanks’ ready to go. lol

Sounds crazy, but who knows what the future holds.

Interesting. Since the human body in intergrated with the human consciousness during every stage of life I wonder what the popular form of holding consciousness would be. Would consciousness without a body be prefered over consciousness with a body? Should the human body be the best choice (as God designed), what age would the conscious be inserted into (baby, toddler, youth, teen, young adult, middle age, or elderly)? I’d even guess that some mad scientist would try to put a conscience into an animal … Parrots live super long!

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Yes, its likely the first step in true cloning.

The way they were talking in that show, they were getting pretty close to achieving this

Don’t believe the hype.Shows presented to the general public may at times gibe the impression of something more developed than it is, as do those looking for more funding. Instead examine their successes (if any). Until they have achieved their goal I would question their confidence in how much more they have left to do;they don’t know what other obstacles they may encounter.

 

[mikekle]

Interesting. Since the human body in intergrated with the human consciousness during every stage of life I wonder what the popular form of holding consciousness would be. Would consciousness without a body be prefered over consciousness with a body? Should the human body be the best choice (as God designed), what age would the conscious be inserted into (baby, toddler, youth, teen, young adult, middle age, or elderly)? I’d even guess that some mad scientist would try to put a conscience into an animal … Parrots live super long!

It does raise some interesting questions! I would almost bet they are closer to doing this than we think though, usually by the time an idea or theory is revealed to the public, its already been done in R&D labs, the last I heard Govt R&D labs are about 20-30 yrs ahead of publicly available technology, so who knows what they can do.

Id say most people would want to be a early to mid 20s body.

This would be the breakthrough of all time if it succeeded, it would also be super expensive initially, but I still say they would have customers lining up in droves no matter what the cost.

I still wonder if God would allow mankind to reach such a level of technology though, this would essentially be ‘beating death’ and/or avoiding, postponing ones judgement…??

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

It does raise some interesting questions! I would almost bet they are closer to doing this than we think though, usually by the time an idea or theory is revealed to the public, its already been done in R&D labs, the last I heard Govt R&D labs are about 20-30 yrs ahead of publicly available technology, so who knows what they can do.

Id say most people would want to be a early to mid 20s body.

This would be the breakthrough of all time if it succeeded, it would also be super expensive initially, but I still say they would have customers lining up in droves no matter what the cost.

I still wonder if God would allow mankind to reach such a level of technology though, this would essentially be ‘beating death’ and/or avoiding, postponing ones judgement…??

Here is the question is see pertaining to God; would such technology keep us from experiencing heaven to the fullest?

Somewhere, I was introduced to the concept that Satan rules without mercy. Thinking this scenario through, I can make the assumption that mankind would eventually rule with no mercy should they have the power to extend life through various forms. Look at what we did to Jesus, we crucified him without mercy for being God. I would speculate that the culture would move from astonished at the power, to forcing such power on the civilization whereby creating overpopulation where consciences would be frightened to enter into a body. Further, for punishment, I could see punishment being moved into an animal (fulfilling reincarnation). Since the culture would not let anyone die, they would be selective about who/what could be born. Ultimately, with this technology, we would have the power to transform our status with God from being the church militant to the church suffering indefinantly. Would this mean that we trAnsformed our world to hell?

 

[mikekle]

Here is the question is see pertaining to God; would such technology keep us from experiencing heaven to the fullest?

Somewhere, I was introduced to the concept that Satan rules without mercy. Thinking this scenario through, I can make the assumption that mankind would eventually rule with no mercy should they have the power to extend life through various forms. Look at what we did to Jesus, we crucified him without mercy for being God. I would speculate that the culture would move from astonished at the power, to forcing such power on the civilization whereby creating overpopulation where consciences would be frightened to enter into a body. Further, for punishment, I could see punishment being moved into an animal (fulfilling reincarnation). Since the culture would not let anyone die, they would be selective about who/what could be born. Ultimately, with this technology, we would have the power to transform our status with God from being the church militant to the church suffering indefinantly. Would this mean that we trAnsformed our world to hell?

Well, yea, I doubt God would let us reach this level of technology, (or satan for that matter), if we beat death, it would be a bad thing for him too. No one would ever reach their judgement anymore.

The question would be, if such a technology was achieved, and they tried it on the first person, and then the persons body died, would the digital ‘clone’ really be this person, or something else, or maybe not all of that person? This kind of thing could really go haywire!