Confusing attributes of God

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The following are dictionary definitions of a couple of God’s attributes.
  1. Immutable = Immutable objects are simply objects whose state cannot change
  2. Impassible = does not experience pain or pleasure from the actions of another being
If these are truly His attributes, from 1), How can we pray effectively for favors from him as His state cannot change. If He has willed Grandma to die, how can our prayers change His mind??

If as in 2) He does not experience discomfort, sadness, pain or pleasure, how can anything we do make the slightest difference to Him. We.being good or bad cannot affect Him.
 
The following are dictionary definitions of a couple of God’s attributes.
  1. Immutable = Immutable objects are simply objects whose state cannot change
  2. Impassible = does not experience pain or pleasure from the actions of another being
If these are truly His attributes, from 1), How can we pray effectively for favors from him as His state cannot change. If He has willed Grandma to die, how can our prayers change His mind??

If as in 2) He does not experience discomfort, sadness, pain or pleasure, how can anything we do make the slightest difference to Him. We.being good or bad cannot affect Him.
The confusion is about “perfection” versus “movement to fulfillment”.
Something perfect or complete or “in Act” does not move toward its completion, rather it is already there, and “at rest in its being”. That is God, fully at rest, not moving to become something “more fully or completely God”.

But there is another kind of movement, the “movement of operation”. Some things are perfect, complete, at rest, in no movement, like a ball that stops rolling; it just sits there in a “perfected location or being”. There are other things that are “complete”, but their perfection contains operation. This could be like this computer I am using; it is not becoming a computer, not developing new chips, resistors, capacitors, diodes. But it is at rest as a “perfected computer”. Yet it is doing things in its “rest”. It is processing voltages and currents. It is “operating in its rest”, it is “being itself”.

God is complete, at rest, in Act. Yet he is “operating”, eternally moving, eternally the Father is spirating his whole being into the Son. Eternally the Son is spirating his whole being into the Father. Eternally the Holy Spirit is being the being of the Father into the Son. Eternally the Holy Spirit is being the being of the Son into the Father. This is the operation of Love, uniting yourself into the one you love. And it happens that God also loves what is not God, in a manner that will be appropriate for what is not God.

God is not our servant, waiting around to see what we might want, then jumping into action to make it true. We are not here to enjoy the world until we die, to maximize pleasure and avoid pain, “passibly”. We are here to be and “operate” in our union with Him. Those who seek to live passibly, to find meaning in the satisfaction of appetites in temporal satisfactions, these are seeking to “become really alive”, they are in the movement of becoming perfected, seeking rest, yet never fining it because all that they seek is temporal, it does not last more than a moment, and the appetite looks for some other satisfaction to become at rest.

We, however, have been baptized, with the Spirit of God poured into us, the fullness of God in his being, poured into us, God in Love and by Love (Love is a name for the Holy Spirit) united in Perfection in us; we ARE, we are full, complete. But, is it a completion of unmoving Rest, or are we beings who operate? We are beings who pour out our lives in operation. We pour out our being into the One we love to be united to Him. In a human way, that means we pour ourselves into doing what is pleasing to him; we Love one another. We do not pray for things to make us feel good, we pray “Thy will be done”, we pray, “Let it be done to me according to your word.” And then we do all our dongs virtuously.

When a little boy refuses to clean his room as asked by his parents, he is not hurting his parents. A temper tantrum is one of the things most parents realize their children will try out. But if anything is being “hurt” it is something that does belong to his parents (his room in their house is messy). It is the same with our virtuously done or viciously done deeds. We do not hurt God, but something belonging to him experiences defect done to it. And we ourselves experience hurt in it also - loss of friendship with God with our sin, or conciliation with God in our virtuous doings. As for God, he knows us and what we will do as we are maturing in our adoption as sons to be like our Brother, Jesus.
 
It is gibberish like you just wrote that makes me hesitate asking for sensible, simple answers to questions that continually bother me about my faith. Why don’t you just reread my questions and try to answer them in plain simple English? Nothing you wrote makes any sense at all. And all that verbiage completely fails to even try answering the original questions. If you really feel you have answered the original questions, you need help.
 
The following are dictionary definitions of a couple of God’s attributes.
  1. Immutable = Immutable objects are simply objects whose state cannot change
  2. Impassible = does not experience pain or pleasure from the actions of another being
If these are truly His attributes, from 1), How can we pray effectively for favors from him as His state cannot change. If He has willed Grandma to die, how can our prayers change His mind??

If as in 2) He does not experience discomfort, sadness, pain or pleasure, how can anything we do make the slightest difference to Him. We.being good or bad cannot affect Him.
Doesn’t Impassible pertain to the Glorified body?
 
The following are dictionary definitions of a couple of God’s attributes.
  1. Immutable = Immutable objects are simply objects whose state cannot change
  2. Impassible = does not experience pain or pleasure from the actions of another being
If these are truly His attributes, from 1), How can we pray effectively for favors from him as His state cannot change. If He has willed Grandma to die, how can our prayers change His mind??

If as in 2) He does not experience discomfort, sadness, pain or pleasure, how can anything we do make the slightest difference to Him. We.being good or bad cannot affect Him.
These are truly attributes of God.

(1) We do not pray to “convince” God to give in to our demands; instead we pray to express our recognition of his mighty, providence, and will (which is absolute). By this expression we do an act of submission to his absolute will. Therefore when something happens which we may “believe” it to be the answer of our prayer, it is not that we have succeeded or failed to change His will, instead HE HAS ACTED IN HIS ABSOLUTE FREE WILL.

(2) Discomfort, sadness, pain or pleasure are human expressions of human experiences. They belong to corporeal intellectual beings (felt by the body), but God is pure spirit and so these feelings cannot be attributed to him “as such.”

However, it can be questioned as to why these expressions are attributed to God in some incidences in Scriptures. This is simply the expression of this truth IN HUMAN TERMS/LANGUAGE as the way to be understood by HUMANS (personification of God’s nature).

These terms mean to express defect or tranquility in the relationship between a creature (man) and his Creator (God), which can be something “good” (when in tranquility) or “bad” (when defected), as the break-up of this relationship was not the intention of creation but the outcome of sin. Being good or bad, therefore, “cannot affect Him,” but declares his “divine effort” of reconciling man to himself as SUCCESSFUL (being good as he is All Good), or FAILURE (being bad as it is never his intention to any of his creatures).

Thus when His salvific grace is SUCCESSFUL we use our human language to express this by saying “God is happy” “you have put a smile on God’s face” “You have made Christ proud” etc, etc.
but when the grace FAILS we also say that “because of this or that (sinful act) God is in discomfort, sadness, pain…etc” which is just our human way of expressing this defect in our relationship to God.

Thank you.
 
The following are dictionary definitions of a couple of God’s attributes.
  1. Immutable = Immutable objects are simply objects whose state cannot change
  2. Impassible = does not experience pain or pleasure from the actions of another being
If these are truly His attributes, from 1), How can we pray effectively for favors from him as His state cannot change. If He has willed Grandma to die, how can our prayers change His mind??

If as in 2) He does not experience discomfort, sadness, pain or pleasure, how can anything we do make the slightest difference to Him. We.being good or bad cannot affect Him.
Personally, I don’t think we need to worry about this so much. Catholic theologians and others don’t have God all figured out. What does the Scripture say? Make your requests known to God, seek and you will find, ask and it will be given. We don’t have to know what’s going on inside God’s mind to do that. Whether he always knows what we were going to pray for or not does not stop the need for us to pray. There is much theological debate about what God knows, how his mind works. There are good arguments for instance that God has tensed knowledge, which is knowledge that changes depending on what is going on in time. This would mean that God does have thoughts that would change, tensed knowledge. There are other good arguments that say God is timeless and every moment is present to him at once. Ultimately,we do not know. And people argue about them. But none of these things actually help us to have a relationship with God. And that is where prayer comes in. How could you have a relationship with someone who you never talk to? Prayer is important because we discover God in prayer. We discover also God’s love. We express our love for God and for others.

I think it was St. Thomas Aquinas who said everything we know about God is through analogy. God is a Father for instance. That is an anology. And these analogies help us to connect with God even if they are not exactly right. God is like a father. Similarly God listens to our prayer and responds to it. How it technically happens in God’s mind is beyond our ability to know. As the Scripture says who knows the thoughts of God? And it is the Spirit who probes the deep things of God. For only the spirit of a man can know what is truly in his mind.
 
Thank you Wa Michael for about as clear an answer to my questions as I probably will find anywhere. I find it unfortunate that so many of my fellow Catholics truly believe that the human analogies they use in describing their affecting of God are really affecting him as if he was some benevolent old wise grandfather figure. Learning that the effects they have on Him by prayer, anger, etc. are “really” nonexistent would really confuse them.
 
The following are dictionary definitions of a couple of God’s attributes.
  1. Immutable = Immutable objects are simply objects whose state cannot change
  2. Impassible = does not experience pain or pleasure from the actions of another being
If these are truly His attributes, from 1), How can we pray effectively for favors from him as His state cannot change. If He has willed Grandma to die, how can our prayers change His mind??

If as in 2) He does not experience discomfort, sadness, pain or pleasure, how can anything we do make the slightest difference to Him. We.being good or bad cannot affect Him.
  1. God didn’t change because of foreknowledge. We pray because we don’ t have foreknowledge. But we still pray because we don’ t know what is in God’s will and whether his response includes the effects of our prayers or not. And sometimes his response is “No”. But that shouldn’t stop you asking or asking people to pray for you. Unless you are not willing to pray if you don’t get 100% success. If one is truly sincere about his issues, he will try ALL sorts and means to enhance his chances of success. Obviously he won’t know which one will bear fruit or a holistic approach may yield the results which individual actions would not have achieved. Who knows?
  2. God has been shown to show “regret”, “anger” “displeasure” at the things we do. We can not assume these words mean the same effect as what we feel. Bible authors try to use human terms to describe God’s reactions and “feelings”. I doubt whether anyone can describe divine feelings with any accuracy since we are not divine, we are mere fleshy creatures. Being good or bad doesn’t affect God, it affects us. He already prepared a place for those so that each will go to their own proper places.
 
Being “merely fleshy creatures” is the very fact that those words are included in our “dictionary” since it is a reality as we all feel them. But God is NOT FLESHY; and even if those terms can be expressed in relation to the soul/spirit of man they are a sign of imperfection, but again God is PERFECT.
 
Thank you Wa Michael for about as clear an answer to my questions as I probably will find anywhere. I find it unfortunate that so many of my fellow Catholics truly believe that the human analogies they use in describing their affecting of God are really affecting him as if he was some benevolent old wise grandfather figure. Learning that the effects they have on Him by prayer, anger, etc. are “really” nonexistent would really confuse them.
Huh? Who exactly do you have in mind? Do you have a problem with the Bible calling God a Father? And St. Thomas Aquinas who said all we can know about God is through analogy because he is incomprehensible to us? How is your analogy of God as being an unaffected uncaring thing that is impervious to prayer better?
 
Huh? Who exactly do you have in mind? Do you have a problem with the Bible calling God a Father? And St. Thomas Aquinas who said all we can know about God is through analogy because he is incomprehensible to us? How is your analogy of God as being an unaffected uncaring thing that is impervious to prayer better?
Exactly, there is no problem with the Bible calling God a Father since this word is the closest ordinary language to the understanding of His being, since it is found in our experience. That is why He could not be called “aldfj;ajdfka;lsdk” since this word has no existence as far as our experience/knowledge/apprehension is concerned.

St. Thomas’ argument is all the same that we know Him through what we find in our knowledge/experience.
 
Re: fisherman carl’s questions

Q. Who exactly do you have in mind?

A. Most Catholics I know and definitely all my Catholic relatives.

Q. Do you have a problem with the Bible calling God a Father?

A. Yes in fact, “father” is a very human term, quite inappropriate for an incomprehensible God.

Q. St. Thomas Aquinas said all we can know about God is through analogy because he is incomprehensible to us.

A. Trying to make sense of a truly incomprehensible being by using human analogies is a futile waste of time. Not comprehendable means just that.

God being an unaffected uncaring thing that is impervious to prayer springs naturally from the theologians and dictionaries definition of the two attributes I first mentioned.
Why did the Church ever allow theologians to give God such a list of attributes in the first place?
 
By “Why did the Church ever allow…” might you in any way mean “Why did the Holy Spirit ever grant that…”?
 
The only Son of the Father seemed to like the term Father very much, using it endearingly in intimate conversation with Him constantly, and taught his disciples to use this name in their communication, “Our Father, who art in heaven…”

He reminded them again and again of this Father as their Father: “You must be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect”, “Your Father who sees in secret will reward you…”. “Your Father knows what you need before you ask Him…”

Yes, the Church established the definition of God as our Father - meaning its Head, its King, Jesus, established this understanding for us as our required outlook on this Person of the Trinity. And we are obedient followers of our King, obedient members of the Body of our Head.
 
Re: fisherman carl’s questions

Q. Who exactly do you have in mind?

A. Most Catholics I know and definitely all my Catholic relatives.

Q. Do you have a problem with the Bible calling God a Father?

A. Yes in fact, “father” is a very human term, quite inappropriate for an incomprehensible God.

Q. St. Thomas Aquinas said all we can know about God is through analogy because he is incomprehensible to us.

A. Trying to make sense of a truly incomprehensible being by using human analogies is a futile waste of time. Not comprehendable means just that.

God being an unaffected uncaring thing that is impervious to prayer springs naturally from the theologians and dictionaries definition of the two attributes I first mentioned.
Why did the Church ever allow theologians to give God such a list of attributes in the first place?
No its not a waste of time to use analogy. I suggest you read this.

taylormarshall.com/2013/05/the-golden-key-to-thomas-aquinas-analogy.html

The Bible calls God a Rock. Is God a rock? No. But God is a little like a rock in his unchanging nature. But he is less like a rock than he is a rock. Yet, he is more like a rock than he is like a sponge. God can be counted on because of his unfailing nature. The same property that a building relies on for rock as its foundation. So you see how using analogy is useful for us to better picture different aspects of God.

God also is called a Shepherd. Is God literally a shepherd? No, but he is like one some ways.
 
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