Dewman LDS Blood Atonement doctrine

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Dewman, forgive me for not buying into your propraganda about mormons because on more than one occasion I have been attacked by LDS missionaries and by other faithful mormons. You may want to look into the LDS doctrine of blood atonement.
And, what was my crime? Public debate concerning LDS doctrines.

"Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved… and suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, ‘shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?’
"All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers and sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant…
"I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance… if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the Devil… I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them…
“This is loving our neighbor as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it… if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. That is the way to love mankind.” (Sermon by President Brigham Young, delivered in the Mormon Tabernacle, February 8, 1857; printed in the Deseret News, February 18, 1857; also reprinted in the Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pages 219-220)

xmission.com/~country/reason/blood.htm

 

[PaulDupre]

I love people. That’s why I kill 'em.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Gilmore was shot by a firing squad on January 17, 1977 after angrily telling his lawyers to drop the appeals they had filed in defiance of his wishes. The night before, Gilmore had requested an all-night gathering of friends and family at the prison mess hall. On the morning of the 17th, he enjoyed a last meal consisting of a hamburger, hard-boiled eggs, a baked potato, a few cups of coffee, and three shots of whiskey. He was then taken to an abandoned cannery behind the prison which served as the prison’s death house. He was strapped to a chair, with a wall of sandbags placed behind him to absorb the projectiles of the bullets. Five prison guards stood concealed behind a curtain with five small holes cut for them to place their rifles through which were aimed at him. Gilmore’s last words were: “Let’s do it.”

Gilmore requested that, following his execution, his eyes be used for transplant purposes. Within hours of the execution, two people received his corneas, inspiring the British punk rock band The Adverts to write and release “Gary Gilmore’s Eyes” later that year.

According to Mikal Gilmore’s memoir, Utah’s tradition dictated that five men comprise a firing squad - four of them with loaded rifles and one with a gun containing a blank, so as to not know who fired the fatal shot. Upon inspecting the clothes worn by Gary Gilmore at his execution, Mikal noticed five holes in the shirt - indicating, he wrote, that “[t]he state of Utah, apparently, had taken no chances on the morning that it put my brother to death” (p. 390).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gilmore

Utah Governor Signs Bill to End Firing Squad
Governor Olene Walker, who recently stated that it was a “sad commentary” that Utah still had a firing squad, has announced that legislation passed in February 2004 abolishing the practice will be signed into law. While the primary method of execution has been lethal injection, inmates were allowed the option of firing squad. The last execution by firing squad in 1996 in Utah brought scores of media and curiosity seekers to the state. A second bill eliminated executions on Sundays, Mondays, or holidays, in a cost-cutting measure. The last execution to take place in Utah, in 1999, was by lethal injection. (Associated Press, February 21, 2004) On March 15, 2004, Governor Walker signed the legislation into law, to take full effect on May 3, 2004. (Associated Press, March 16, 2004).
deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=8&did=245

List of individuals executed in Utah
answers.com/topic/list-of-individuals-executed-in-utah

Blood atonement
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
In Mormonism, blood atonement is a controversial doctrine taught by some early Latter-day Saint leaders, and expanded by Brigham Young, that within a theocracy, there are certain sins such as murder that requires that murderers “have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins” in order for the Atonement of Jesus fully operative in the repentance process.

While criticized by many Mormons and eventually repudiated as official Church doctrine by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (“LDS Church”) in 1978, this doctrine still has some adherents, and it is sometimes advanced by conservative Mormons to justify capital punishment, particularly in ways such as execution by firing squad that involved the actual and literal spilling of blood on the ground, which some Mormons believed was a requirement of the doctrine. The doctrine has been cited as a reason why Utah was one of the last three U.S. states to continue executions by firing squad (for those who chose it over lethal injection), although in 2004 Utah governor Olene Walker signed a bill outlawing execution by firing squad, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints officially indicated no objection to this change. Provisions allow, however, for four individuals who had already chosen death by firing squad as their form of execution.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_atonement

google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=+firing+squad+blood+atonement+Utah

 

[Paul_G]

Hi Daniel,
Before I wade into this discussion, what do you mean when you say that you “have been attacked by LDS missionaries and by other faithful mormons”? Has it been on this board or elsewhere, and what context did it occur? Do you have some examples? Thanks…Paul

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Paul, I am speaking of Physical Violence. When I was in the Airforce in Denver. I would engage in public debates in local public fourms with Mormon Missionaries. I used an historical approach from LDS sources. More than an hour after a debate miles away from the debate site, LDS missionaries ambushed me with a ball bat.

In other cases, I have had faithful mormons physcally attack me because they viewed me as an apostate that needed to be stopped from destroying the faith of LDS people. In most of those cases, it was the result of just having a conversation where I showed them documentation like the thousands of changes to the Book of Mormon. utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm
utlm.org/topicalindexa.htm#Changes

LDS have basically what they call “faith afirming” history which is really Orwellin’s big brother in action.

I recommend you follow this link for the historical documentation concerning the blood atonement doctrine. xmission.com/~country/reason/blood.htm

TRUE DOCTRINE OF BLOOD ATONEMENT. Just a word or two now, on the subject of blood atonement… man may commit certain grevious sins—according to his light and knowledge—that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be saved he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone—so far as in his power lies—for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail … And men for certain crimes have had to atone as far as they could for their sins wherein they have placed themselves beyond the redeeming power of the blood of Christ. (Doctrines of Salvation, 1954, Vol. 1, pp. 133-136)

BLOOD FLOWS IN UTAH
Brigham Young’s Teachings Put Into Practice
utlm.org/newsletters/no56.htm#Practice

Good index of the history of LDS blood atonement doctrine
utlm.org/topicalindexa.htm#Blood%20Atonement

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

In August 1972 Joel LeBaron was murdered. The following year the Salt Lake Tribune reported:

ENSENADA, MEXICO (AP) - A man excommunicated from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for the killing of his brother. Ervil Morerel LeBaron… said his brother Joel, 49, was violating church doctrine in his teachings and was killed in August 1972 as a result. (Salt Lake Tribune, Nov. 11, 1973)
…

Don Sullivan, 24, who said he was a member of the church from 1972 until 1977, testified Wednesday that LeBaron told him of a message from God he received concerning the murder of Vest.

“He stated that he had had a revelation,” Sullivan said. “And that in the revelation it was revealed to him … that Vest was a defector—he would run to police and was about to reveal top secrets of the kingdom of God.”

Sullivan said LeBaron told him that God said “to have a woman, Vonda White, to blood atone him (Vest) without his knowledge. She would sit down and fix him a hot meal. While he was sitting at the table enjoying the dinner she would … get behind him and shoot him in the back of the head until he was dead.”

In April 1975 Robert Simons was assassinated in Utah. LeBaron and his group were later linked to the murder:

The complaint alleges that Marston, LeBaron and Chynoweth lured Simons to a desolate spot six miles east of Wellington, Carbon County, and killed him on or about April 23, 1975. The three are members of the Church of the Lamb of God. (Salt Lake Tribune, July 22, 1978)

The Deseret News, Sept. 29, 1977, claimed that Ervil LeBaron “has been linked to more than a dozen deaths and disappearances in the West,…” The Tribune, however, claimed that “Investigators have said he may be responsible for between 20 and 29 slayings stemming from his leadership of the Church of the Lamb of God.” (Salt Lake Tribune, November 25, 1978)
…

This information appeared in the Tribune on March 13, 1977:

Donald Eugene Sullivan … who was allowed to plead guilty to attempted homicide in return for his testimony, said LeBaron also told his followers, as they planned the murder of Dr. Allred and Verlan LeBaron, “We would go to heaven for what we did” and become “God” whether they died or not.

Sullivan, 26, said LeBaron had a “revelation” in April 1977, that Dr. Allred would die May 3, 1977.

Although Ervil LeBaron was able to escape the penalty of the law for many years, on May 28, 1980, he "was found guilty … of first degree, capital homicide in the 1977 murder of Dr. Rulon C. Allred…
…

It is interesting to note that Ervil LeBaron was also found guilty of planning to murder his brother Verlan. The assassination team was to blood atone him at the funeral of Dr. Allred. As it turned out, however, they were unable to carry out the plan because of the presence of a large number of police and members of the press. It is fortunate that this foolish scheme was aborted. Ben Bradlee, Jr., and Dale Van Atta feel that if the assassins had actually decided to carry out the plan, they “would have to go inside with guns drawn,… They probably would not be able to escape. They would have to spray their automatic rifles at random and scores would be killed.” (Prophet of Blood: The Untold Story of Ervil LeBaron and the Lambs of God, New York, 1981, page 245) According to the same book, LeBaron did not seem to care how many people were killed at the funeral:

Ervil had one final comment for Don, Eddie and lack about the murder of Verlan LeBaron: 'The Lord wants this guy more than anything … do whatever has to be done. Anybody gets in the way—men, women or children—it doesn’t make any difference." (Ibid., pp. 238-239)

After the failure of this mission, the LeBaron group tried to find Verlan in El Paso, Texas, so they could assassinate him. …

Like Brigham Young, Ervil LeBaron believed that in certain cases a man should blood atone his own wife. Lloyd Sullivan claimed that he had been having problems with his wife, Bonnie, and that LeBaron told him the Lord wanted him to take Bonnie to the “deep south and deep-six her there.” (Ibid., p. 273) Ervil also believed that children who failed to obey should be executed, and according to witnesses, he “ordered his own daughter, Rebecca killed.” (Ibid., pp. 281-282) On pages 229-31 of the same book, we find the following:

utlm.org/newsletters/no56.htm#Practice

 

[Paul_G]

Some interesting info, but seemingly irrelevant to the discussion. What connections are you trying to make here, and why?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Paul, the practice of the firing squad in Utah was the result of their doctrine of blood atonement, that the blood of Christ is not suffienct to cover all your sins, and that for some sins like adultery, murder and apostasy you had to have your own blood shed, poured out to atone for your own sins.

It is interresting that the firing squad was quietly put away without a new revelation to get rid of the blood atonement doctrine.

There are some fundamentalist mormons who still believe in the blood atonement doctrine.

 

[Paul_G]

Daniel Marsh:

Hi Paul, the practice of the firing squad in Utah was the result of their doctrine of blood atonement, that the blood of Christ is not suffienct to cover all your sins, and that for some sins like adultery, murder and apostasy you had to have your own blood shed, poured out to atone for your own sins.

It is interresting that the firing squad was quietly put away without a new revelation to get rid of the blood atonement doctrine.

There are some fundamentalist mormons who still believe in the blood atonement doctrine.

Thanks Daniel

Where you aware that both Idaho and Oklahoma have, or did have the firing squad as a state option for executions as well? Like Utah this method was used for state sponsored executions only. I believe it was the state legislature that discontinued the use of firing squad. I’ll leave what ever fundamentalist Mormons believe or don’t believe to them. It has nothing to do with me or what we, as Latter Day Saints, believe about the subject of blood atonement.

Paul

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

So, Paul what do modern LDS believe about atonement? Have they rejected the past teachings of blood atonement? How does LDS doctrine of atonement compare to Catholic-Protestant views?

 

[Paul_G]

Daniel Marsh:

So, Paul what do modern LDS believe about atonement? Have they rejected the past teachings of blood atonement? How does LDS doctrine of atonement compare to Catholic-Protestant views?

Hi Daniel

With a superficial reading of many of the quotes regarding what has been called by non LDS commentators as the “doctrine of blood atonement” it can be forgiven if one comes to the conclusion that this was a practice of the Church. However, With a more comprehensive knowledge of the history of that time (we are talking about 1 or 2 years here), and some of the concurrent writings of these authors it will be seen that sermons touching on these things were rhetorical in nature, so there is no past teaching to reject. This so called doctrine was never practiced in the ways that the critics of the Church claim. From what I have read here about the Catholic view of the atonement, and if all the “ya buts” are removed, we agree on all essential points

Paul

 

[majick275]

I disagree. Only the faith promoting revisonist histories gloss over this period. Brigham Young was not a pleasant person. Despite the Orwellian rewrites of his MANY years leading the LDS church it is obvious that at best he had an “Old Testament” view of how the church should be run. From the LDS mob violence in the midwest to the atrocities in Utah his presidency was marked by sex, lies and violence.

 

[Paul_G]

majick275:

I disagree. Only the faith promoting revisonist histories gloss over this period. Brigham Young was not a pleasant person. Despite the Orwellian rewrites of his MANY years leading the LDS church it is obvious that at best he had an “Old Testament” view of how the church should be run. From the LDS mob violence in the midwest to the atrocities in Utah his presidency was marked by sex, lies and violence.

You’re most welcome to disagree and draw on any source you feel may support your view. However, Orwell is not alone in his production of fiction. Perhaps you could offer something that we could discuss.

 

[majick275]

I will and you are correct to expect factual support. I am swamped at work today but will post you links tonight or tomorrow. In the meantime I would recomend the Salt Lake City newspapers interview with William Law, Michael Quinns books, Bushman’s, Todd Compton’s, the 1835 D&C and the JoD. (Just so you know what type of sources I will be drawing from)

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Have you ever read, Senate Document 189 ( 1841 ) --Concerning the Mormon Danite Band—Testimony Given Before the Judge of the Fifth Judicial Circuit of the State of Missouri, on the Trial of Joseph Smith, Jr., and Others, for High Treason, and Other Crimes Against that State. ???

 

[majick275]

Okay I’m overcomitted this weekend but the request for proof was fairly asked and deserves a reply so here’s the first pass:

"There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world.
"I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine; but it is to save them, not to destroy them…
"And further more, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.
“It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit… There are sins that can be atoned for by an offering upon an altar, as in ancient days; and there are sins that the blood of a lamb, or a calf, or of turtle dove, cannot remit, but they must be atoned for by the blood of the man.” (Sermon by Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pages 53-54); also published in the Mormon Church’s Deseret News, 1856, page 235)

"Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved… and suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, ‘shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?’
"All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers and sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant…
"I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance… if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the Devil… I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them…
“This is loving our neighbor as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it… if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. That is the way to love mankind.” (Sermon by President Brigham Young, delivered in the Mormon Tabernacle, February 8, 1857; printed in the Deseret News, February 18, 1857; also reprinted in the Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pages 219-220)

 

[majick275]

(continued)

*“To whatever extent the preaching on blood atonement may have influenced action, it would have been in relation to Mormon disciplinary action among its own members. In point would be a verbally reported case of a Mr. Johnson in Cedar City who was found guilty of adultery with his stepdaughter by a bishop’s court and sentenced to death for atonement of his sin. According to the report of reputable eyewitnesses, judgment was executed with consent of the offender who went to his unconsecrated grave in full confidence of salvation through the shedding of his blood. Such a case, however primitive, is understandable within the meaning of the doctrine and the emotional extremes of the [Mormon] Reformation.” (Gustive O. Larson, Professor of Church History at the church’s Brigham Young University Utah Historical Quarterly, January, 1958, page 62, note 39) *

“I knew of many men being killed in Nauvoo… and I know of many a man who was quietly put out of the way by the orders of Joseph and his Apostles while the Church was there.” Confessions of John D. Lee, Photo-reprint of 1877 edition, pages 282-283

"In Utah it has been the custom with the Priesthood to make eunuchs of such men as were obnoxious to the leaders. This was done for a double purpose: first, it gave a perfect revenge, and next, it left the poor victim a living example to others of the dangers of disobeying counsel and not living as ordered by the Priesthood.
"In Nauvoo it was the orders from Joseph Smith and his apostles to beat, wound and castrate all Gentiles that the police could take in the act of entering or leaving a Mormon household under circumstances that led to the belief that they had been there for immoral purposes.(ibid)[Michael Quinn gave a gruesome and well documented example of this in his book *The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, Vol. 2, pages 250-251

There was also Brigham Youngs decreee that the penalty for interacial marriage was death on the spot.

and here is the link to William Law’s interview in which you will see a former memeber of the LDS first presidency give a seemingly objective account of what he witnessed and why he was “run off” by Joseph Smith Jr.:

xmission.com/~country/reason/lawint2.htm

That’ll have to do for now.

 

[Paul_G]

Daniel Marsh:

Have you ever read, Senate Document 189 ( 1841 ) --Concerning the Mormon Danite Band—Testimony Given Before the Judge of the Fifth Judicial Circuit of the State of Missouri, on the Trial of Joseph Smith, Jr., and Others, for High Treason, and Other Crimes Against that State. ???

Sorry, no I haven’t. Why don’t you post it. What connection to your arguments about “blood atonement” does it have?

 

[Paul_G]

Thanks majick,

I truly understand about time constrictions. I appreciate that participation in these types of debates can only proceed with regard to the amount of personal free time available.

You mentioned that your offerings would include proof necessary to confirm the validity of your thoughts about the so called doctrine of “blood atonement”. I am interested to know why you believe that the quotes you listed point to proof. Is it based on faith that the authors you quoted (other than that in the JOD) are telling the truth, or is it based on your own scholarship of the primary documents.

Here is the declaration of the Leadership of the Church, about the misrepresentations of others on this subject.

MANIFESTO OF THE PRESIDENCY AND APOSTLES
"SALT LAKE CITY, Dec. 12th, 1889.

To Whom It May Concern:

In consequence of gross misrepresentations of the doctrines, aims and practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly called the ‘Mormon’ church, which have been promulgated for years, and have recently been revived for political purposes and to prevent all aliens, otherwise qualified, who are members of the ‘Mormon’ church from acquiring citizenship, we deem it proper on behalf of said church to publicly deny these calumnies and enter our protest against them.

We solemnly make the following declarations, viz.:That this church views the shedding of human blood with the utmost abhorrence. That we regard the killing of a human being, except in conformity with the civil law, as a capital crime, which should be punished by shedding the blood of the criminal after a public trial before a legally constituted court of the land. * * *

We denounce as entirely untrue the allegation which has been made, that our church favors or believes in the killing of persons who leave the church or apostatize from its doctrines. We would view a punishment of this character for such an act with the utmost horror; it is abhorrent to us and is in direct opposition to the fundamental principles of our creed.

The revelations of God to this church make death the penalty of capital crime, and require that offenders against life and property shall be delivered up and tried by the laws of the land.

We declare that no bishop’s or other court in this church claims or exercises civil or judicial functions, or the right to supercede, annul or modify a judgment of any civil court. Such courts, while established to regulate Christian conduct, are purely cclesiastical, and their punitive powers go no further than the suspension or excommunication of members from church fellowship. * * *

[Signed]:

"WILFORD WOODRUFF, GEORGE Q. CANNON, JOSEPH F. SMITH,
Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
LORENZO SNOW, GEORGE TEASDALE,
FRANKLIN D. RICHARDS, HEBER J. GRANT,
BRIGHAM YOUNG, JOHN W. TAYLOR,
MOSES THATCHER, W. W. MERRILL,
FRANCIS M. LYMAN, A. H. LUND,
JOHN HENRY SMITH, ABRAHAM H. CANNON,
Members of the Council of the Apostles.
JOHN W. YOUNG, DANIEL H. WELLS, Counselors.

 

[majick275]

I think it easily verified that the quotes I gave came from the source documents rather than someone else’s testimony of it. (obviously William Law was giving testimony of what he experienced but it is easily verified that those are his actual words.)

In response to your LDS first presidency message I would point out that Wilford Woodruff is of questionable veracity at best due to his statements regarding polygamy. The LDS first presidency up to that time had a history of lying to the federal government about their compliance with the law. Furthermore they had published deliberate deceptions to the world as the D&C up until 1876 contained a section denouncing polygamy as a crime and stating in no uncertain terms that the LDs church did not practice it and believed in monogamy. This would certainly not be the only instance though of later LDS leaders denouncing the teachings of Brigham Young.