Did Saint Augustine say Peter was not the Rock?

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In his 13th sermon;

“Thou art Peter, and on this Rock – petra – which thou hast confessed, on this rock which thou hast known, saying: ‘Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God,’ I will build my church upon Myself, who am the Son of the living God; I will build it on Me, and not Me on thee.”

Link is a non-C site, no need to post it.
 
Yep he did. Keep reading St. Augustine though. Several things occur, his later opinion is not the same. He has extensive discourses with Jerome his contemporary. St. Augustines greek wasn’t as hot as people make it up to be and why Jerome was such an influence on him. Jerome was a crack translater.

Just thought I would add this. Are you the same person today that you were 5 or 10 years ago? Or did you grow, particularly in understanding? When looking back at people and times, snippets in time don’t allow for growth. It makes people stagnant charicatures.

Before Augustine was catholic he was Manichean (sp) and at one point a pretty lascivious guy.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
It was my understanding that he said the rock was several different things including Peter and Peter’s faith. Here is one quote:

“Number the bishops from the See of Peter itself. And in that order of Fathers see who has succeeded whom. That is the rock against which the gates of hell do not prevail” *Augustine, Psalm against the Party of Donatus, 18 (A.D. 393). *

He clearly believed in the Papacy*:*

“I am held in the communion of the Catholic Church by…and by the succession of bishops from the very seat of Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection commended His sheep to be fed up to the present episcopate.” Augustine, Against the Letter of Mani, 5 (A.D. 395).

“Carthage was also near the countries over the sea, and distinguished by illustrious renown, so that it had a bishop of more than ordinary influence, who could afford to disregard a number of conspiring enemies because he saw himself joined by letters of communion to the Roman Church, in which the supremacy of an apostolic chair has always flourished.” Augustine, To Glorius et.al, Epistle 43:7 (A.D. 397). “The chair of the Roman Church, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius sits today.” Augustine, Against the Letters of Petillian, 2:51 (A.D. 402).
 
All this talk on who or what or the size of “rock” in Matthew 16. That part of the gospel starts with Jesus asking his disciples who people say he is and who do they(disciples) say he is. Then that part of the gospel concludes with Jesus warning his disciples not to tell no one that he is the Christ.

This was all about making known to his disciples who Jesus truely was. After all, the gospels according to Mark and Luke stuck to the theme of Jesus being revealed to his disciples as the Christ and Messiah also.

Anyways I digress, because some say reading the NT writings are waaaay to cryptic to understand by oneself. Dont want to become a self pope. Wait, where did I get that from? I must of interpreted “pope” from Matthew 16!
 
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geno75:
Dont want to become a self pope. Wait, where did I get that from? I must of interpreted “pope” from Matthew 16!
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Of course. 👍
 
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malachi_a_serva:
In his 13th sermon;

“Thou art Peter, and on this Rock – petra – which thou hast confessed, on this rock which thou hast known, saying: ‘Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God,’ I will build my church upon Myself, who am the Son of the living God; I will build it on Me, and not Me on thee.”

Link is a non-C site, no need to post it.
Click to expand...
Is there any way to see the quote in its intirty. And some historical background behind the statement.

I remeber reading in a book that Someone had used a quote from the late Cardinal Newmann from when he was a Anglican which was rather anti-catholic and posed it as if he had said it when he was a Cordinal.

So context of the statemen, Both in what he was saying it and when he was saying it, would be neccecary.
 
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malachi_a_serva:
In his 13th sermon;

“Thou art Peter, and on this Rock – petra – which thou hast confessed, on this rock which thou hast known, saying: ‘Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God,’ I will build my church upon Myself, who am the Son of the living God; I will build it on Me, and not Me on thee.”

Link is a non-C site, no need to post it.
Click to expand...
You cannot separate someone’s faith from themself because of free will. While the Father revealed the Son to Saint Peter, it was still Peter’s free will which let him believe and confess Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

“Number the bishops from the See of Peter itself. And in that order of Fathers see who has succeeded whom. That is the rock against which the gates of hell do not prevail” Augustine, Psalm against the Party of Donatus, 18 (A.D. 393).

“I am held in the communion of the Catholic Church by…and by the succession of bishops from the very seat of Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection commended His sheep to be fed up to the present episcopate.” Augustine, Against the Letter of Mani, 5 (A.D. 395).

“Carthage was also near the countries over the sea, and distinguished by illustrious renown, so that it had a bishop of more than ordinary influence, who could afford to disregard a number of conspiring enemies because he saw himself joined by letters of communion to the Roman Church, in which the supremacy of an apostolic chair has always flourished.” Augustine, To Glorius et.al, Epistle 43:7 (A.D. 397).

“And since these heretics were trying to bring the Apostolic See round their view, African councils of holy bishops also did their best to persuade the holy Pope of the city (first the venerable Innocent, and afterwards his successor Zosimus) that this heresy was to be abhorred and condemned by Catholic faith. And these bishops so great a See successively branded them, and cut them off from the members of the Church, giving letters to the African Churches in the West, and to the Churches of the East, and declared that they were to be anathematised and avoided by all Catholics. The judgment pronounced upon them by the Catholic Church of God was heard and followed also by the most pious Emperor Ho they had wandered, and are yet returning, as the truth of the right faith becomes known against this detestable error.” Possidius, Life of Augustine, 18 (A.D. 437).
 
You know what. I debated this years ago and believed the quote, just took it for granted. However I just read sermon 13 as well as all the sermons on Matthew and can’t find that quote anywhere.

Either it is being cited incorrectly (possibly one of his other writings: giving the benefit of the doubt for integrity) or it is spurious (for which I am getting a strong impression)

Here are the sermons: newadvent.org/fathers/1603.htm

Here is Sermon 13 newadvent.org/fathers/160313.htm

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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Nicene:
You know what. I debated this years ago and believed the quote, just took it for granted. However I just read sermon 13 as well as all the sermons on Matthew and can’t find that quote anywhere.
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Well, I do believe that you are correct. The quote seems to be a fabrication linked to Saint Augustine because of how Saint Augustine is venerated in the Catholic Church. I google’d the quote whole, and the only pages that cite this alleged quote of Saint Augustine are links to anti-Catholic books on Amazon, and more famous and less credible anti-Catholic sites. Searching on this quote does not bring up a reputable source that lists sermons of Saint Augustine. It is a mere fabrication, you are correct. The fabrication of quotes from our Church Fathers just goes to show you the desperation these anti-Catholics will go to to bash the One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church. It is also pretty funny that they rely on the Church Fathers to back up their assertions that the Catholic Church is the apostate Church when they confess Scripture Alone. If Scripture Alone is all they need, then they should be able to show the errors of Catholicism from Scripture Alone. 🙂
 
Ok found it, Tractate 122 Chapter 21 of the gospel of John section 5. It’s a spurious redition of Augustine, however semi close. He is explaining the relationship between Christ, Peter, the Church and the keys. It’s the petra arguement but altering Augustines words and thereby his explanation and intent.

Tractate cxxii

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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malachi_a_serva:
In his 13th sermon;

“Thou art Peter, and on this Rock – petra – which thou hast confessed, on this rock which thou hast known, saying: ‘Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God,’ I will build my church upon Myself, who am the Son of the living God; I will build it on Me, and not Me on thee.”
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That’s the thing. Early Christians saw multiple meanings to texts. Thus you get Fathers saying that the rock was Christ, faith, and Peter (St. Hilary comes to mind). I am not sure what else St. Augustine has said about this passage, but as others have said, he most certainly recognized the authority of the Bishop of Rome.

It is also worth noting that the CC understands herself to be founded upon Christ. And that Christ visibly rules his Church through the successor of St. Peter. The Church also understands herself to be established upon St. Peter’s confession of faith:

The catechism, 424:
Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.
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“Because thou hast said unto me, ‘thou art the Christ the Son of the living God;’ I also say unto thee, ‘Thou art Peter.’ For before he was called Simon. Now this name of Peter was given him by the Lord, and in a figure, that he should signify the Church. For seeing that Christ is the rock (Petra), Peter is the Christian people. For the rock (Petra) is the original name. Therefore Peter is also called from the rock; not the rock from Peter; as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. Therefore he saith, ‘Thou art Peter and upon this rock’ which thou hast confessed, upon this rock which thou hast acknowledged, saying, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God’ will I build my Church’ that is upon Myself, the Son of the living God, ‘will I build My Church.’ I will build thee upon me, not myself upon thee . . . For men who wished to be built upon men, said ‘I am of Paul; and I am of Apollos; and I of Cephas,’ who is Peter. But others did not wish to be built upon Peter, but upon the Rock, said,’But I am of Christ.’ And when the Apostle Paul ascertained that he was chosen, and Christ despised, he said, ‘Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?’ And, as not in the name of Paul, so neither in the name of Peter; but in the name of Christ.; that Peter might be built upon the Rock, not the Rock upon Peter.” (Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956, Volume VI, St. Augustine, Sermon XXVI.1-2, p. 340)
 
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