Dismissal of children during middle of Mass for their own service

[Lepanto]

At a local parish, at the 11am Sunday Mass, the pastor will dismiss the children right before the first reading. They then go out to the narthex where they are supposedly taught the gospel at their level. The kids return to the pews during the offertory.

Besides being disruptive twice during the Mass (the coming and going of perhaps 100 children is both noisy and time-consuming), is this practice licit?

(I know that there is a rite for a priest to say Mass for children, but that is something completely different.)

 

[Aramis]

It’s a twist on the (proper) handling of catechumens, who are dismissed at the offeratory to go and break open the word…

Appropriate? don’t know for sure. As there is an approved lectionary for Children, with simplified text, I can see it as being logical.

Better for the kids to learn the material? Probably.

Disruptive? Maybe, but is it worth it?

 

[puzzleannie]

children’s liturgy of the Word, (actual name for this practics) is NOT a twist on the dismissal of the catechumens, who are dismissed after the proclamation of the scripture and homily, for extended teaching based on the readings. It is licit. Whether or not it is prudent, advisible or being done properly in this or that parish is another matter. There is a provision for children (those who have not yet made first communion) to hear the readings proclaimed from the children’s lectionary, with a homily suited to their understanding. This should be delivered by a priest or deacon, but if these celebrants are unable to adapt their message or style of preaching for younger listeners, it is permissible for a lay catechists to read a teaching from an approved source. What is not permissible, in this context (part of Mass) and what is the most common abuse, including in my own parish, is for a lay person to adlib the whole thing.

 

[SMHW]

While it is common to use the word ‘dismiss’ or ‘dismissal’ in conjunction with Children’s Liturgy of the Word, it is sort of a misnomer because that word makes it sound like the children are leaving Mass.

There are many problems in many implementations of Children’s Liturgy of the Word but the idea is that it is a PART of the Mass, which takes place in a slightly different physical location.

 

[AMDG1]

How is it that I grew up as a kid with no “dismissal” to get a “watered down” version of the Liturgy of the Word…and still turned out alright? For that matter I suspect generations of people just like me didn’t get any special instruction and sat with our parents through the entire Mass. Not that I understood what I was hearing…but I did learn to sit quietly and respect what the priest was saying. Gee…and I chose to go to a Catholic H.S. (not my parents for me) and then a Jesuit university. Coincidence? Probably not.

For the record…I keep my kids with me and don’t let them join the other kids in the dismissal.

 

[DiZent]

At my parish, the Children’s Liturgy of the Word is only at the 9:00 am Mass - which tends to be more lively anyway - contemporary music, etc. The “dismissal” (not really the correct word) is done respectfully - the children are called forward, Father gives them a blessing, and they go downstairs to the “lower church” (used for overflow Mass during Easter). The lay persons who do the readings are almost always teenagers from the youth group. While they do receive some instructions, I wish they were a bit better trained. This was not available when my children were young, but I almost always take my grandson downstairs for it.

 

[Chris-WA]

There is a provision for children (those who have not yet made first communion) to hear the readings proclaimed from the children’s lectionary, with a homily suited to their understanding. This should be delivered by a priest or deacon, but if these celebrants are unable to adapt their message or style of preaching for younger listeners, it is permissible for a lay catechists to read a teaching from an approved source.

I would bet that 99% of the time this is done by lay people since most parishes only have one priest and no deacons at any given mass. Since only a priest or a deacon can preach the homily at mass, I think it would be prudent to not send the kids off unless there were clergy available to handle it.

Personally, I think the whole thing is silly. Children should sit in mass with their families as long as they’re not too disruptive (crying babies). Whether or not they understand everything that is being said is irrelevant. RE should take care of that. They need to be in the mass with their families to be a part of the larger worship community, learn the mass, and learn how to be reverent.

In my parish they do something different that’s just as silly. The younger RE kids start class 30 minutes prior to mass and then come into the mass during the offertory. They somehow combine RE with the Liturgy of the Word, which means they’re being shortchanged on both ends. My advice for any parish is to schedule RE between masses so both you and your kids can attend both in full. I suggested this once to our RE coordinator and the paraphrased response was “Catholics won’t stay at church that long.” How sad. I thought the Sabbath was for just such a thing. Many Protestants go to their Sunday service and attend a full hour of Sunday school every Sunday of the year. Many Catholic parishes only have RE during the regular school year and then take the summer off, and the RE tends to be full of a lot of nonsense rather than actually teaching the faith to the kids.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Personally, I think the whole thing is silly. Children should sit in mass with their families as long as they’re not too disruptive (crying babies). Whether or not they understand everything that is being said is irrelevant. RE should take care of that. They need to be in the mass with their families to be a part of the larger worship community, learn the mass, and learn how to be reverent.

Whether they understand it or not is very important. Part of Religious Ed is the Mass itself. Religious Ed isn’t just taught in the classroom, it’s lived in the family and most importantly at Mass.

They are at Mass with their families. They don’t need to fully understand it but understand it at their level. A fuller understanding will come with time.

Our church allows participation until fourth grade. Two of our daughters like to participate in CLOTW (age nine and four), another daughter prefers to stay with mom and dad during the homily (age six).

 

[Chris-WA]

Whether they understand it or not is very important. Part of Religious Ed is the Mass itself. Religious Ed isn’t just taught in the classroom, it’s lived in the family and most importantly at Mass.

I don’t think you understood what I said. I said it’s not important that children understand *everything *that is said at the mass. It’s more important that they are physically there with their families, not off somewhere else being given the children’s version of things.

They are at Mass with their families.

That’s the point you are missing. If the kids are pulled out of mass for CLOTW, then for that period of time they are not at mass with their families. They are in some other room getting a watered down experience probably provided by a layperson who cannot legally preach a homily. They are missing part of the mass experience, especially hearing the gospel and the homily proclaimed by an ordained priest or deacon. They are pulled out of mass and are not hearing scripture as it is actually written. Yes, understanding will come with time, but what we’ve done is watered down the mass experience for kids because of some perceived notion that it’s too hard for them. If one wants to make sure they get something more at their level then they can get that in their RE class.

Furthermore, I don’t know how it’s done in your parish, but in mine RE has been combined with CLOTW, which is a lazy way to get both done simultaneously. More preferable would be to have the kids attend a full hour of RE and a full mass, rather than combining the two at the same time. I feel that the kids get cheated out of a lot of learning, and in the process learn very little about the faith because they’re only focussed on the Sunday readings. Of course we want them to be taught scripture, which is crucial, but they also need to be taught about the Catholic faith, which is often the part that suffers under this method of instruction.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

That’s the point you are missing. If the kids are pulled out of mass for CLOTW, then for that period of time they are not at mass with their families. They are in some other room getting a watered down experience probably provided by a layperson who cannot legally preach a homily.

The experience they are getting isn’t necessarily a watered-down experience (it actually can be an enhanced experience), however I can certainly see your concern due to improper training by laypeople.

Chris-WA:

They are missing part of the mass experience, especially hearing the gospel and the homily proclaimed by an ordained priest or deacon. They are pulled out of mass and are not hearing scripture as it is actually written.

I can only speak for our church, but the children hear the actual scripture as it is written. I will admit that the homily is not proclaimed by an ordained priest or deacon (at least at our parish).

Someone else in this thread indicated that CLOTW is indeed “licit”. Could anyone out there provide any official documents as it pertains to this? If we are indeed doing things improperly at our parish, I am certainly willing to listen.

Chris-WA:

Yes, understanding will come with time, but what we’ve done is watered down the mass experience for kids because of some perceived notion that it’s too hard for them.

I disagree to some extent. I do think the discipline of remaining in the same position throughout mass can lose a bit of its meaning by having the children get a “break” at Church reading time.

Having said that, I think there is something to be said of applying the mass experience and connecting the Church readings directly to the children during CLOTW. The problem I see in reserving discussing the Word only for Religious Ed is that the mindset can develop that the children think they don’t hear the Gospel in Church but only outside of it in Religious Ed.

Keep in mind that most ordained priests at mass are speaking to adults and their situations. You may get an occational speaker that can connect to all ages, or moreso to those who are younger.

Chris-WA:

Furthermore, I don’t know how it’s done in your parish, but in mine RE has been combined with CLOTW, which is a lazy way to get both done simultaneously.

That’s unfortunate. Thanks for this insight. I will need to keep an eye on our parish so they don’t fall into this same trap.

Chris-WA:

More preferable would be to have the kids attend a full hour of RE and a full mass, rather than combining the two at the same time.

We actually do something similar at our parish. Religious Ed parents and children have a special full mass said for them (no CLOTW at that mass), and then immediately thereafter they move into Religious Ed. training.

There is only one mass at out parish that has CLOTW, it is at a different time than the Religious Ed prep mass.

Chris-WA:

I feel that the kids get cheated out of a lot of learning, and in the process learn very little about the faith because they’re only focussed on the Sunday readings.

This is a legitimate concern. We need to keep in mind that the mass contains both the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Putting too much emphasis on the Word can result in the Eucharistic element as being deemed almost not as important.

Chris-WA:

Of course we want them to be taught scripture, which is crucial, but they also need to be taught about the Catholic faith, which is often the part that suffers under this method of instruction.

I don’t entirely agree with the analogy. I do think the jury is out though as to whether or not having CLOTW is effective in retaining future adult faithful Catholics. I do know that we did not have CLOTW when I was a youth, and the retention rate of practicing Catholics from my grade school class is low.

Having said that, children will become good Catholic men and women if the parents are involved in their Catholic education. They can’t leave that instruction entirely to CLOTW, RE, or the ordained priest or deacan.

 

[DiZent]

Whether they understand it or not is very important. Part of Religious Ed is the Mass itself. Religious Ed isn’t just taught in the classroom, it’s lived in the family and most importantly at Mass.

They are at Mass with their families. They don’t need to fully understand it but understand it at their level. A fuller understanding will come with time.

Our church allows participation until fourth grade. Two of our daughters like to participate in CLOTW (age nine and four), another daughter prefers to stay with mom and dad during the homily (age six).

I appreciate the CLOTW, and respectfully disagree with its detractors - I wish we’d had the program when my kids were young. In my parish, it is supplemental to the RE program, and I think that children up to 4th grade are allowed to go. The current DRE has classes scheduled from 8:45 - 10:00 am on Sundays during the school year, so children enrolled in RE are not the ones that attend CLOTW - it is mostly younger children, though in the summer months, older children also attend. I do not just send my grandson downstairs - I go with him, and have talked to him about it. I also print out coloring sheets for him based on the readings. When I was a child, my mom had many “little Catholic” books for me to look at before I understood what the Mass was about. I still have some of them. Later, I had my “little Missal” - simplified so a child could understand it.

 

[Colorado_Mike]

Our parish recently started dismissing the kids for “Friends of the Story” during the liturgy of the word. Although it annoys me generally, I can understand it for the 3-6 year old set. But for the children who have received their first Communion, or are preparing for it, it makes no sense and is patronizing. If they are required to go to reconciliation and can understand the essential mystery of the Eucharist, they are certainly capable of understanding the reading. This is the same attitude that adults use when they give 8-14 year olds a “watered down” copy of the Bible. Have some higher expectations!

It also occurs to me that many priests and bishops (such as our own Bishop Chaput) heard God’s call to become a priest at around age 8, while at Mass. They won’t be as likely to hear it if they aren’t hearing the Word spoken by a Priest in the pulpit.

 

[Cat]

There are two mistakes that people make with kids:

1. Talking up to them, in adult language.
2. Talking down to them, in baby language.

In the first mistake, what we do is forget that children are not adults. They don’t understand adult language, activities, songs, entertainment, spirituality. And even if they do understand, they’re not quite sure what to do, because they’re not adults yet.

I think that the cause of this mistake is often “pride.” Parents think that their child is really really smart, and therefore, perfectly capable of understanding “adult” things. Or they think that their child has the same spirituality as an adult.

In recent years, adults are using “Adult” methods to teach children. For example, instead of singing nursery rhymes, they take their child to the symphony. Or instead of playing “Candyland” with their toddler, they play chess. And in church, instead of using “Bible story books” and children’s books and resources, we bring our children into the “adult” service (or Mass) and think that they are receiving training in their faith.

Children are children, not adults, and it is better to teach them using methods that work with children. They do not learn by doing and hearing adult things. They learn step by step, precept upon precept (as the Bible says), beginning with childish things…

In the second mistake, parents talk “down” to their child, assuming that the child cannot possibly understand anything an adult says or does. Baby words, songs, clothes, books, foods (some moms continue to puree the food until the child is in grade school). No sports, no association with other children or adults, no “stressful” situations (e.g., a Mass). Everything must be fulfilling for the child. Nothing “bad” must ever happen. He must never be bored, never be made to do anything he doesn’t want to do, never be made to sit still and be quiet. No one must ever raise their voice, let alone a “rod,” around the child.

This mistake is as bad as the other! We forget (or deny) that children are continually growing up and will eventually become adults. Children must be challenged to develop and grow up. Kids can handle a Mass, a cantata, etc. They don’t have to have puppets or dancing Bibles or videos or games to learn.

So what do these two “mistakes” have to do with Mass?

I believe there is a happy balance.

The Bible says that God gives gifts to believers for the edification of the whole Church. There are probably people in your parish who have been gifted to work with children. I am one of these people. When I was Protestant, I was involved with many, many children’s ministries, and I was really GOOD at it. The Lord gave me the ability to strike the balance between respecting a child’s “childhood” and respecting his/her “growing up.”

I spent a lot of time researching good teaching methods that would appeal to all kinds of learners in my classes and clubs. I used children’s songs–not baby songs, but really well-written children’s songs. I taught the Bible stories in such a way that a child could comprehend what I was saying, but I also challenged the child at his or her level.

I realize that you all want to be a “family” at Mass time. There is great value in a child sitting with their family during Mass (or worship service) and learning the lessons of respecting others, amusing themselves quietly, singing along with the congregation, shaking hands during the Sign of Peace, etc.

But it is also my opinion that if there is a well-done children’s dismissal, then parents should seriously consider allowing those who have been gifted in children’s ministry to minister to their child and teach him/her about the Lord, the Bible, and their faith. One of the biggest problems in the Catholic Church is poorly catechized people. If there is an opportunity for your child to be catechized by an “expert” (other than you), why not take advantage of it?

Hopefully, you are doing a great job at home of catechizing your children. But there are others who are ready and willing and GIFTED BY GOD to help you with this task. Allow them to use their spiritual gifts to help “train up your child.”

 

[puzzleannie]

if you want to discuss the prudence or advisibility of CLOW we have a dozen threads on the topic already. OP asked is it licit. the answer is yes, when done properly. I have never been in a parish that does it where it has been done properly, although I do know of one parish. they have it for preschoolers to 1st graders, conducted by a deacon who is admirably suited to the ministry, and is very effective and has given my children an exceptional understanding of the gospel message and of the Mass itself.

 

[Chris-WA]

I can only speak for our church, but the children hear the actual scripture as it is written. I will admit that the homily is not proclaimed by an ordained priest or deacon (at least at our parish).

If the kids who go to CLOTW are hearing the same actual scriptures that we here at mass, then why do they need to leave mass to go to CLOTW?

Also, if your parish has a homily at CLOTW that is not being done by a priest or deacon, then I believe that is a bonafide liturgical abuse specifically prohibited by the church and something you need to get fixed. Homilies can only be given by a priest or a deacon and not even a bishop can change that. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I know of no exception in the case of CLOTW.

 

[Chris-WA]

if you want to discuss the prudence or advisibility of CLOW we have a dozen threads on the topic already. OP asked is it licit. the answer is yes, when done properly.* I have never been in a parish that does it where it has been done properly*, although I do know of one parish. they have it for preschoolers to 1st graders, conducted by a deacon who is admirably suited to the ministry, and is very effective and has given my children an exceptional understanding of the gospel message and of the Mass itself.

Exactly the problem, which is why I think it more prudent for the kids to go to mass with their families and have separate RE where they learn to understand it better. Mass is primarily for worship, not education. That’s why we have RE, and is also why parents are supposed to be the primary educators of the faith, although sadly we as a church are often failing miserably in both methods of instruction.

 

[Tonks40]

Personally, I think Mass is both worship and education (emphasis more so on worship). We learn with listening to the readings - why not the kids with their CLOTW?

The thing I think is most significant in this practice is the fact that they do NOT keep the kids away from the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Just my :twocents:

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Homilies can only be given by a priest or a deacon and not even a bishop can change that. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I know of no exception in the case of CLOTW.

Here’s some interesting (name removed by moderator)ut from Jimmy Akin:

jimmyakin.org/2005/03/childrens_litur.html
Jimmy Akin:

…such liturgies are *currently *permitted under Church law. There is a document (printed in the Sacramentary) called the Directory for Masses with Children that came out in 1973. Regarding these liturgies, it says:

Sometimes, moreover, if the place itself and the nature of the community permit, it will be appropriate to celebrate the liturgy of the word, including a homily, with the children in a separate, but not too distant, room. Then, before the eucharistic liturgy begins, the children are led to the place where the adults have meanwhile celebrated their own liturgy of the word [DMC 18].

Jimmy Akin:

In my estimation, what they’re referring to is having enough qualified people available to lead a second liturgy of the word for the kids. That would *include *an extra priest or deacon to do the gospel and the homily. The DMC does not waive the requirement of an ordained person to perform these tasks, and so parishes where an extra priest or deacon is not available to do these liturgies do not have a composition permitting their celebration.

Thus as far as I can tell, it is a liturgical abuse to have a separate liturgy of the word for the kids unless a priest or deacon does the gospel and the homily.

Jimmy doesn’t outright say it is an abuse, but he seems to be of the opinion that it is. His “as far as I can tell” comment indicates that, according to him, the verbiage is hazy enough that it isn’t all that clear from what the DMC says as to whether laypeople can perform this function.

Ironically, we have two deacons at our parish and two parish priests. Certainly one of them can lead the CLOTW provided it isn’t a prohibition from having the laity perform the task (we have a very large parish and I am unsure of the deacons availability for performing such functions as it pertains to their current responsibilities).

 

[Aramis]

Preaching faculties can and are given to non-clerics for specific purposes…

The sister who is acting pastor in one of the outlying Alaskan churches, for example.

The Order of Preachers, likewise, has a number of individuals grantd preaching faculties who are not yet ordained.

Some seminarians, likewise, are granted preaching faculties prior to deaconal ordination.

 

[Chris-WA]

Preaching faculties can and are given to non-clerics for specific purposes…

The sister who is acting pastor in one of the outlying Alaskan churches, for example.

The Order of Preachers, likewise, has a number of individuals grantd preaching faculties who are not yet ordained.

Some seminarians, likewise, are granted preaching faculties prior to deaconal ordination.

I don’t know what you’re basing these claims on. You would have to show some official church documentation. What I do know for sure is that no one other than a priest or deacon can preach a homily at mass. The authority to preach at mass is reserved only to ordained clergy. This is specifically addressed in Redemptionis Sacramentum, which is binding on the church worldwide:

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[64.] The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself,​

[142]* “should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but never to a layperson.[143] In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a Priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate”.[144]
[65.] It should be borne in mind that any previous norm that may have admitted non-ordained faithful to give the homily during the eucharistic celebration is to be considered abrogated by the norm of canon 767 §1.[145] This practice is reprobated, so that it cannot be permitted to attain the force of custom.*
[66.] The prohibition of the admission of laypersons to preach within the Mass applies also to seminarians, students of theological disciplines, and those who have assumed the function of those known as “pastoral assistants”; nor is there to be any exception for any other kind of layperson, or group, or community, or association.[146]
So it is clear that if a parish is going to have a CLOTW, it is required that a priest or deacon give the homily. Even seminarians are prohibited.

One other statement you made that got my attention, though unrelated to this topic, was that a sister can be an “acting pastor”. I’m not sure what you mean by that.
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