Does morality have to be external of God for it to apply to him?

[Ben_Sinner]

From an atheist trying to find a hole in the logic of God being goodness itself and not something external of it:

The point is, the “standard” has to be EXTERNAL to the deity, to apply to the deity, and that refutes the deity as creator of Reality. A deity can’t only exist in Reality, as as total required participant, if the deity is the creator of that very reality in which it is required to exist.

What would be the rebuttal to this position?

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Goodness doesn’t apply to God, it applies to people. It’s a construct of our interpretation of loving God.

God existed before His creation. This part of the OP atheist argument is really shallow. As if there is not an edge to the universe. If I create a house, I don’t have to be there in order to manage it.

 

[fisherman_carl]

I think how Christian’s have traditionally dealt with the Euthyphro dilemma is to say that God’s essence is perfect goodness, such that he acts out of that goodness. The real issue is that if the moral standard is external to God then God has to check himself every morning to see if he is obeying the 10 commandments. But on the flip side if God is dictating what is the standard of goodness such that whatever God says goes then God could tell you to become a cannibal and that would then become the standard for goodness. Socrates took the position therefore that perfect morality and goodness must be an independent standard outside of God. And who could blame him since the Greek gods were a mix of good and evil beings that contradicted one another and argued with one another. However, for the Christian God is neither an immoral evil dictator who calls evil good and good evil. Nor is He deficient in perfect goodness in any way such that he has to try to measure up to some external standard. Instead he is by nature perfect goodness so that his moral commandments come from that perfect goodness. And, if God is defined as the greatest conceivable being then he must be perfect goodness by definition.

 

[fisherman_carl]

From an atheist trying to find a hole in the logic of God being goodness itself and not something external of it:

The point is, the “standard” has to be EXTERNAL to the deity, to apply to the deity, and that refutes the deity as creator of Reality. A deity can’t only exist in Reality, as as total required participant, if the deity is the creator of that very reality in which it is required to exist.

What would be the rebuttal to this position?

As far as what is said up there in the second sentence doesn’t really apply to God. Since God is not simply a participant in reality, or just another being within that reality. Rather, he is described as existence itself. The only being whose existence is his essence. This atheist doesn’t really understand the definition of God since he appears to be treating him like just one more being in the universe whose existence is somehow dependent on that universe or ‘reality’ term that he uses.

 

[meltzerboy]

I think how Christian’s have traditionally dealt with the Euthyphro dilemma is to say that God’s essence is perfect goodness, such that he acts out of that goodness. The real issue is that if the moral standard is external to God then God has to check himself every morning to see if he is obeying the 10 commandments. But on the flip side if God is dictating what is the standard of goodness such that whatever God says goes then God could tell you to become a cannibal and that would then become the standard for goodness. Socrates took the position therefore that perfect morality and goodness must be an independent standard outside of God. And who could blame him since the Greek gods were a mix of good and evil beings that contradicted one another and argued with one another. However, for the Christian God is neither an immoral evil dictator who calls evil good and good evil. Nor is He deficient in perfect goodness in any way such that he has to try to measure up to some external standard. Instead he is by nature perfect goodness so that his moral commandments come from that perfect goodness. And, if God is defined as the greatest conceivable being then he must be perfect goodness by definition.