Don Rumsfeld vs Henry Stimson

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Every liberal and even some conservatives are coming down on Rumsfeld and want his head on a platter. Have mistakes been made in Iraq? Of course they have and others will be made. No war is perfect and goes 100% as planned. What do you think would have happened in WW II if Henry Stimson, FDR’s Secretary of War, had received the same treatment Rummy has gotten? After all more men died on D Day than in the whole war in Iraq, and The Battle of the Bulge which lasted from December 16, 1944 to January 28, 1945 was the largest land battle of World War II in which the United States participated. More than a million men fought in this battle including some 600,000 Germans, 500,000 Americans, and 55,000 British. At the conclusion of the battle the casualties were as follows: 81,000 U.S. with 19,000 killed, 1400 British with 200 killed, and 100,000 Germans killed, wounded or captured. Rumsfeld deserves some slack, I hope President Bush sticks by him.
 
Rumsfeld is very sartastic at times. This time it came around to bite him. He has made a lot of mistakes in the Iraq war, and the buck stops with him & the President. If he doesn’t accept responsibility, maybe it is time for someone else.

It is also important to note that he has made a lot of enemies in the DoD because he has tried to reorganize it and make it more productive. Usually people who do that make a lot of enemies.
 
IF the Battle of the Bulge were fought today, it would be a “quagmire” and we would be ridiculed for ‘going it alone’ (Note, 19,000 US solidiers died, and 200 Brits died, in todays terms that’s not a ‘coalition’ ).

In the end Freedom won out. I pray that we don’t give in, and freedom will win again.
 
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gilliam:
Rumsfeld is very sartastic at times. This time it came around to bite him. He has made a lot of mistakes in the Iraq war, and the buck stops with him & the President. If he doesn’t accept responsibility, maybe it is time for someone else.

It is also important to note that he has made a lot of enemies in the DoD because he has tried to reorganize it and make it more productive. Usually people who do that make a lot of enemies.
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Actually I think his sarcasm is warranted when talking to the press.

We need a “man” to head the DOD not a “let’s ask for permission first” or " we have to be sensitive to the enemy" type. I support Rumsfeld.
 
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gilliam:
Rumsfeld is very sartastic at times. This time it came around to bite him. He has made a lot of mistakes in the Iraq war, and the buck stops with him & the President. If he doesn’t accept responsibility, maybe it is time for someone else.

It is also important to note that he has made a lot of enemies in the DoD because he has tried to reorganize it and make it more productive. Usually people who do that make a lot of enemies.
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Sure mistakes were made, being sarcastic does not make him a bad Secretary of Defense or a bad person (I hope). Making or trying to make DoD more efficient is a good thing, but you are right in that the people there who have a cushy job will resist any changes. I don’t know what Stimson’s personality was but the press and the Republicans never for one minute questioned his ability or why we were in the war. Things sure have changed in 60 years and not for the better.
 
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Lance:
Sure mistakes were made, being sarcastic does not make him a bad Secretary of Defense or a bad person (I hope). Making or trying to make DoD more efficient is a good thing, but you are right in that the people there who have a cushy job will resist any changes. I don’t know what Stimson’s personality was but the press and the Republicans never for one minute questioned his ability or why we were in the war. Things sure have changed in 60 years and not for the better.
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Not everything was rosy for Stimson, see:
spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAstimson.htm
 
W.House Gives Rumsfeld New Vote of Confidence

“Secretary Rumsfeld is doing a great job leading our efforts at the Department of Defense to win the war on terrorism and to help bring about a free and peaceful Iraq, and the president is focused on working closely with him on those matters,” said White House spokesman Scott McClellan.
…

McClellan said Rumsfeld was responding to troop concerns.

“Secretary Rumsfeld cares deeply about our men and women in uniform, and I think that is reflected by the way he goes and visits directly with those who serve, particularly those in combat zones, and he listens to those concerns, and that’s what the president expects,” McClellan said.
 
Armor installed within 24 hours of soldiers’ complaint

2004-12-17
From Wire Reports

Senior Army officials told a wire service reporter Wednesday that within 24 hours of a soldier’s complaint to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld about shortages of vehicle armor in Iraq, protective armor had been installed on every vehicle in the soldier’s unit.

According to a Hearst Newspaper report Thursday, Army Maj. Gen. Stephen Speakes and Army Brig. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson, senior members of the Army’s combat systems development and acquisition team at the Pentagon, said routine pre-deployment preparations before proceeding to Iraq included adding protective armor plates to the last 20 vehicles of the Tennessee-based 278th Regimental Combat Team’s 830 vehicles.

When the question was asked, 20 vehicles remained to be up-armored at that point,'' Hearst reporter Stewart M. Powell quoted Speakes as saying at a Pentagon briefing. 'We completed those 20 vehicles in the next day. … In other words, we completed all the armoring within 24 hours of the time the question was asked.’’

On Dec. 8, Spc. Thomas ``Jerry’’ Wilson, 31, of Nashville, asked Rumsfeld why, after almost two years of war, soldiers were searching dumps for metal to weld on vehicles destined for hostile territory.

``Why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to up-armor our vehicles?’’ Wilson said.

The question appeared to surprise Rumsfeld and prompted cheers among the soldiers listening to him in a hangar. After asking Wilson to repeat the question, Rumsfeld replied: ’You go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you might want or wish to have.'

During Wednesday’s briefing, Speakes said the soldier may not have known that ``an existing program’’ was under way to add armor to the last of the unit’s vehicles when he questioned Rumsfeld.

thedailytimes.com/sited/story/html/181162
 
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gilliam:
Rumsfeld is very sartastic at times. This time it came around to bite him. He has made a lot of mistakes in the Iraq war, and the buck stops with him & the President. If he doesn’t accept responsibility, maybe it is time for someone else.

It is also important to note that he has made a lot of enemies in the DoD because he has tried to reorganize it and make it more productive. Usually people who do that make a lot of enemies.
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I have to say that I agree that Rummy’s usual sarcasm and flipant remarks finally came home to roost…This man just makes me cringe…His attitude certainily does need an adjustment. I can hardly stand to look at him…
Catholic Heart
 
Catholic Heart:
I have to say that I agree that Rummy’s usual sarcasm and flipant remarks finally came home to roost…This man just makes me cringe…His attitude certainily does need an adjustment. I can hardly stand to look at him…

Catholic Heart
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I think you might be over reacting to him. He is very self assured, but that is good for a man in his position. Remember, there is a lot of people trying to influence the Sec. of Defense (contractors, generals, politicians, special interest groups). Better to have a self assured man there than one that can be easily manipulated.

On the other hand, he reminds me of a college professor 😉
 
From what I understand, one of Rummy’s biggest problems is he has few friends on Capitol Hill. I don’t follow the DoD that closely, but I do recall the occasional issue where the DoD was uncooperative with some Congressional committee or another, and this seems to be the sort of thing that offended Republican committee chairs, who would normally be pretty supportive. Ideally, a secretary of defense would be able to maintain his independent running of the department, while keeping Congress somewhat happy.

FWIW, I think Rummy’s remaking of the armed forces into something quicker, lighter, and more mobile is a good approach. It proved itself during the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, even before the process had proceeded very far. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to have been the best approach for the rest of what was needed in Iraq. But I hope the remodeling of the forces is not a casualty of Iraq or of Rummy’s potential departure.

BTW, as Defense was apparently the post that Condi coveted, and I don’t things have proceeded on her nomination to Secretary of State, I wonder if a sudden resignation by Rumsfeld at this point might allow Bush to reconsider where to put Rice…
 
Catholic Heart:
I have to say that I agree that Rummy’s usual sarcasm and flipant remarks finally came home to roost…This man just makes me cringe…His attitude certainily does need an adjustment. I can hardly stand to look at him…

Catholic Heart
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Heart:

I would not categorize SECRETARY RUMSFIELD’s remark to the soldier in the field (who did not bother questioning the motives of the news reporter who had him ask the question) as flippant. Indeed it is true that in many cases are forced to answer rhetorical questions with the truth - we have the army we have. We are trying to modernize it after 8 years of malignant neglect by the previous Democratic administration. We have an army that is comprised of a few full-time warriers and a backup of reservists - all volunteers. This too can only be changed over time. It did take 8 years to get rid of the brightest and the best. Now we need to train others in the middle of war to take over.

If you blame him for perceived failures then he obviously gets credit for successes. In the latter category we have the war on Afghanistan, the vanquishing of the Army of Iraq, the taming of Sadr City, ditto for Fallujah, etc. Please recall that under Stimson in WWII the Battle of the Bulge occurred. Read the history of that and be surprised that it was poor and mistaken intelligence viz a viz the German Army’s intent and disposition that lead to 19,000 American soldiers killed in 5 weeks as well as 200 Brits. The MSM was not so vehement in its condemnation of either Eisenhour or Stimson as they have been of this Secretary.

I ask you to think with charity in your heart that perhaps he is an honest human being, who probably cares deeply for the young men and women that he sends into harm’s way. He doesn’t micromanage but allows those working for him, civilian and military, to carry on their missions. Thus the errors that we attribute to him generally are committed by others. He has shown a willingness to correct these errors as rapidly as physically possible, never slowing for political gain. Also, in his position, he probably is better informed than most of the sources that we hear criticizing him.

May you be charitable in thought and deed and live in the Peace of our Lord

Francesco
 
Catholic Heart said:
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I have to say that I agree that Rummy’s usual sarcasm and flipant remarks finally came home to roost…This man just makes me cringe…His attitude certainily does need an adjustment. I can hardly stand to look at him…
Catholic Heart
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Makes you cringe? WOW - good thing you never met Georgie Patton - you would never have recovered.

This is the man who along with Tommy Franks is the architect of the fastest, fleetest entry into a foreign nation in all of our history.

Perhaps rather than swallowing hook, bait and sinker the clip which the media love to play at the time of the soldier’s question - you ought to read all of what he said.

And as far as his manner goes, he isn’t the Secertary of of Tea and Pudding Cakes - he’s what he needs to be to get the job done.

Perhaps many have become too accustomed to that milksop Annan and all that State Departmet folderol playing nicey nice while people die and nothing gets done. But they are always polite and “caring”. They “feel” a lot.
 
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HagiaSophia:
Makes you cringe? WOW - good thing you never met Georgie Patton - you would never have recovered.
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Patton’s Speech to the Third Army

“Men, this stuff that some sources sling around about America wanting out of this war, not wanting to fight, is a crock of XXXX. Americans love to fight, traditionally. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle. You are here today for three reasons. First, because you are here to defend your homes and your loved ones. Second, you are here for your own self respect, because you would not want to be anywhere else. Third, you are here because you are real men and all real men like to fight.”

privateline.com/war/patton.html [warning: language]

There’s more if you can stomach it [warning: language]

from the movie:
turtletrader.com/patton.html [warning: language]
 
gilliam said:
“Men, this stuff that some sources sling around about America wanting out of this war, not wanting to fight, is a crock of XXXX. Americans love to fight, traditionally. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle. You are here today for three reasons. First, because you are here to defend your homes and your loved ones. Second, you are here for your own self respect, because you would not want to be anywhere else. Third, you are here because you are real men and all real men like to fight.”

There’s more if you can stomach it 🙂 [warning: language]
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I am so glad you found something quotable - I tried but out of all my favorite quotes I knew I couldn’t post them in a Catholic forum
_
:tiphat:

My husband is roaring with laughter as I wrote this because I am a huge fan of Patton’s and he knows my favorite quotes.
 
As I read this I had the feeling we were listening to either a member of the media or a 10 year old:

From Bob Novak’s Column: Embattled Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld cannot expect support from Sen. John Warner, the Senate Armed Services Committee chairman who normally supports the Bush administration on military matters.

‘‘I’ve had it with him,’’ Warner told a Senate colleague recently, referring to Rumsfeld. Warner, a five-term senator and former secretary of the Navy who is a veteran of both the Navy and Marine Corps, complained about Rumsfeld’s neglect of senators during a Senate Republican caucus two years ago. Nothing has changed since then, in Warner’s opinion.

Republican senators who have publicly joined criticism of Rumsfeld include John McCain, Chuck Hagel, Trent Lott and Susan Collins. The defense secretary has little support in the Senate and is particularly unpopular with junior GOP senators.

suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-edt-novak19.html
 
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