Ender's Game

[Thursday1]

I have just finished “Ender’s Game” by Orson Scott Card for the second time. I think this book raises an excellent question about the nature of self defense.

SPOILERS!!!

I think that was an adequate warning. I’m now assuming that if you are reading this, you 1) have read Ender’s Game, or 2) don’t care about spoilers.

The first time this question is raised, Ender has just had his monitor removed, and is being bullied by Stilson. Ender doesn’t want to fight, but will to defend himself. He kicks Stilson in the chest, knocking him to the ground and winding him. He realizes that unless he really frightens the gang, he might be killed. He kicks Stilson several times in the chest, groin, and head while he is still down. This does frighten the gang, and they are no longer a threat to him. Stilson dies from his beating, but Ender doesn’t find out until the end of the book.

The second time is at Battleschool. Ender has angered a older boy, Bonzo, by being a better commander than he is. Bonzo and his gang catch Ender alone in the shower. Ender knows that Bonzo will kill him if he refuses to fight, and that if he doesn’t completely beat Bonzo, his gang will kill him [Ender]. Bonzo and Ender fight. Ender kicks Bonzo in the face (just stunning him and breaking his nose he thinks.) Ender knows that if Bonzo was able to crawl away and lick his wounds, the fight would just continue later. Ender decides to finish the fight then. He kicks Bonzo hard in the groin, and he falls over.
Ender is transfered to Command School, so he is out of that situation after that. We later learn that Bonzo was dead on his feet after the kick to his head.

So, here’s where it all gets interesting. Were Ender’s actions morally justifiable? Do they count as legitimate force in self defense?

I suppose later we could discuss the other moral questions this book brings up. Or, it could just turn into a thread about when the movie is going to be released.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

P.S.
I will actually give my take on the morality of Ender’s actions, but it would make this post too long.

 

[David_Zampino]

Thursday1:

I have just finished “Ender’s Game” by Orson Scott Card for the second time. I think this book raises an excellent question about the nature of self defense.

SPOILERS!!!

I think that was an adequate warning. I’m now assuming that if you are reading this, you 1) have read Ender’s Game, or 2) don’t care about spoilers.

The first time this question is raised, Ender has just had his monitor removed, and is being bullied by Stilson. Ender doesn’t want to fight, but will to defend himself. He kicks Stilson in the chest, knocking him to the ground and winding him. He realizes that unless he really frightens the gang, he might be killed. He kicks Stilson several times in the chest, groin, and head while he is still down. This does frighten the gang, and they are no longer a threat to him. Stilson dies from his beating, but Ender doesn’t find out until the end of the book.

The second time is at Battleschool. Ender has angered a older boy, Bonzo, by being a better commander than he is. Bonzo and his gang catch Ender alone in the shower. Ender knows that Bonzo will kill him if he refuses to fight, and that if he doesn’t completely beat Bonzo, his gang will kill him [Ender]. Bonzo and Ender fight. Ender kicks Bonzo in the face (just stunning him and breaking his nose he thinks.) Ender knows that if Bonzo was able to crawl away and lick his wounds, the fight would just continue later. Ender decides to finish the fight then. He kicks Bonzo hard in the groin, and he falls over.
Ender is transfered to Command School, so he is out of that situation after that. We later learn that Bonzo was dead on his feet after the kick to his head.

So, here’s where it all gets interesting. Were Ender’s actions morally justifiable? Do they count as legitimate force in self defense?

I suppose later we could discuss the other moral questions this book brings up. Or, it could just turn into a thread about when the movie is going to be released.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

P.S.
I will actually give my take on the morality of Ender’s actions, but it would make this post too long.

Interesting questions. I’ll continue to follow the discussion without posting my own views right this minute. However, it should be noted that while Orson Scott Card, both in this book and in others he has written, is EXTREMELY sympathetic to faith, religion, and especially Catholicism, he is also an active, practicing Mormon. This might have some (name removed by moderator)ut as to your interpretation of the book.

Blessings,

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Here is my opinion of the two situations you posted.

Thursday1:

The first time this question is raised, Ender has just had his monitor removed, and is being bullied by Stilson. Ender doesn’t want to fight, but will to defend himself. He kicks Stilson in the chest, knocking him to the ground and winding him. He realizes that unless he really frightens the gang, he might be killed. He kicks Stilson several times in the chest, groin, and head while he is still down. This does frighten the gang, and they are no longer a threat to him. Stilson dies from his beating, but Ender doesn’t find out until the end of the book.

This was morally unjustified. He took it to far. After Stilson was down he was no longer a threat to Ender. It doesn’t matter what others will do. Beating someone as an example, even if they do not die, is not self defense.

The second time is at Battleschool. Ender has angered a older boy, Bonzo, by being a better commander than he is. Bonzo and his gang catch Ender alone in the shower. Ender knows that Bonzo will kill him if he refuses to fight, and that if he doesn’t completely beat Bonzo, his gang will kill him [Ender]. Bonzo and Ender fight. Ender kicks Bonzo in the face (just stunning him and breaking his nose he thinks.) Ender knows that if Bonzo was able to crawl away and lick his wounds, the fight would just continue later. Ender decides to finish the fight then. He kicks Bonzo hard in the groin, and he falls over.
Ender is transfered to Command School, so he is out of that situation after that. We later learn that Bonzo was dead on his feet after the kick to his head.

This was morally justifiable, it was self defense. Ender was defending himself. He did not take it to the next step as he did with Stilson.

But in all of this there are others that are morally culpable in all of it. The government as they knew the situation with Ender because they engineered the whole thing.

 

[Viki59]

ByzCath:

But in all of this there are others that are morally culpable in all of it. The government as they knew the situation with Ender because they engineered the whole thing.

Exactly. Ender is supposed to be, what? Six, eight? Even in a military school you’d think they’d ban fighting among the students. Or maybe I’ve had my kids in Catholic schools too long, where even play fighting isn’t allowed.
Though my son, at eight or nine, had to pick up a kid and throw him into a fence to get the bullies off his back. Standing up for yourself works. But the adults in charge definitely need to protect the lives of kids.

Have you heard anything about the movie? Are they working on it? That would be awesome, but let’s hope it doesn’t increase fighting among little kids!

 

[Thursday1]

ByzCath:

Here is my opinion of the two situations you posted.

This was morally unjustified. He took it to far. After Stilson was down he was no longer a threat to Ender. It doesn’t matter what others will do. Beating someone as an example, even if they do not die, is not self defense.

This was morally justifiable, it was self defense. Ender was defending himself. He did not take it to the next step as he did with Stilson.

His reasons were the same in each instance. Here are some lines from the first fight:
Ender's Game:

For a moment, the others backed away and Stilson lay motionless. They were all wondering if he was dead. Ender, however, was trying to figure out a way to forestall vengeance. To keep them from taking him in a pack tomorrow. I have to win this now, and for all time, or I’ll fight it every day and it will get worse and worse.

Compare that to his reasoning from the second fight:
Ender's Game:

Ender whirled in time to see Bonzo stagger backward, his nose bleeding, gasping from surprise and pain. Ender knew that at this moment he might be able to walk out of the room and end the battle. The way he had escaped from the battleroom after drawing blood. But the battle would only be fought again. Again and again until the will to fight was finished. The only way to end things completely was to hurt Bonzo enough that his fear was stronger than his hate.

I don’t think we can look at one as justified and the other as unjustified. It’s all or nothing.

Viki59:

Have you heard anything about the movie? Are they working on it? That would be awesome, but let’s hope it doesn’t increase fighting among little kids!

Orson Scott Card is writing the script for the movie this time. It will be the third script since 1992. The movie is supposed to come out in 2008. The movie is going to be a combination of Ender’s Game, and Ender’s Shadow. here is the IMDb entry. I really don’t want to see this movie done with live actors. I think it would be much better if it was anime or CGI. Hopefully this means there will also be a video game made, maybe “Ender: The Game.”

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

 

[Ray_Scheel]

I do see a distinction, where in the second instance the threat was still standing and (IIRC) Ender quit when the threat went down. Unfortunate that the boy died, but that wasn’t part of Ender’s intent, and the second kick wasn’t what killed him. However, in the first instance, there was a deliberate intent to inflict a severe beating after the threat was down, so there was greater culpability there.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Ray_Scheel:

I do see a distinction, where in the second instance the threat was still standing and (IIRC) Ender quit when the threat went down. Unfortunate that the boy died, but that wasn’t part of Ender’s intent, and the second kick wasn’t what killed him. However, in the first instance, there was a deliberate intent to inflict a severe beating after the threat was down, so there was greater culpability there.

I agree with Ray.

While the though process might have been the same or close to the same the actual actions are what counts.

The action of the first was no longer self defense when the boy was down and he kept beating him. The first hit was self defense but it stops being self defense when the threat is gone.

Now we can discuss the underlying thought process but in the real world we would not have this information.

 

[WorBlux]

Thursday1:

I have just finished “Ender’s Game” by Orson Scott Card for the second time. I think this book raises an excellent question about the nature of self defense.

SPOILERS!!!

I think that was an adequate warning. I’m now assuming that if you are reading this, you 1) have read Ender’s Game, or 2) don’t care about spoilers.

The first time this question is raised, Ender has just had his monitor removed, and is being bullied by Stilson. Ender doesn’t want to fight, but will to defend himself. He kicks Stilson in the chest, knocking him to the ground and winding him. He realizes that unless he really frightens the gang, he might be killed. He kicks Stilson several times in the chest, groin, and head while he is still down. This does frighten the gang, and they are no longer a threat to him. Stilson dies from his beating, but Ender doesn’t find out until the end of the book.

The second time is at Battleschool. Ender has angered a older boy, Bonzo, by being a better commander than he is. Bonzo and his gang catch Ender alone in the shower. Ender knows that Bonzo will kill him if he refuses to fight, and that if he doesn’t completely beat Bonzo, his gang will kill him [Ender]. Bonzo and Ender fight. Ender kicks Bonzo in the face (just stunning him and breaking his nose he thinks.) Ender knows that if Bonzo was able to crawl away and lick his wounds, the fight would just continue later. Ender decides to finish the fight then. He kicks Bonzo hard in the groin, and he falls over.
Ender is transfered to Command School, so he is out of that situation after that. We later learn that Bonzo was dead on his feet after the kick to his head.

So, here’s where it all gets interesting. Were Ender’s actions morally justifiable? Do they count as legitimate force in self defense?

I suppose later we could discuss the other moral questions this book brings up. Or, it could just turn into a thread about when the movie is going to be released.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

P.S.
I will actually give my take on the morality of Ender’s actions, but it would make this post too long.

I don’t know about the moral implications, but it seems that the fight with stilson is a microclasm of the entire war against the aliens, that ender was threatened and felt the need to stop the threat and he killed stillson in the process, but never knowing what he did. In the same way were the humans dealing witht the threat of those aliens. The reason ender did so well in the academy besides his natural intellect was that he shared the same attitudes of those who started the war aganst the aliens. He was kept from seeing the reprecusions of his attitude until the alien threat was eliminated, and ender kept his nieve attitudes about threats and wars until he had xenocide and destroyed a great race.

 

[proudnifi]

Ender didn’t consider the threat gone until after he had given the extended beating to the other boys. From what I remember, he didn’t relish the act(s); he saw a need to keep going to remove a threat against him.

He saw the options as 1) stop and probably get himself hurt or killed when next attacked and 2) keep going, break society’s rules and have a better shot at personal safety. The “society” wasn’t looking out for him either - he was a little boy being used by society. He couldn’t win either way.

 

[BryPGuy89]

Thursday1:

I have just finished “Ender’s Game” by Orson Scott Card for the second time. I think this book raises an excellent question about the nature of self defense.

SPOILERS!!!

I think that was an adequate warning. I’m now assuming that if you are reading this, you 1) have read Ender’s Game, or 2) don’t care about spoilers.

The first time this question is raised, Ender has just had his monitor removed, and is being bullied by Stilson. Ender doesn’t want to fight, but will to defend himself. He kicks Stilson in the chest, knocking him to the ground and winding him. He realizes that unless he really frightens the gang, he might be killed. He kicks Stilson several times in the chest, groin, and head while he is still down. This does frighten the gang, and they are no longer a threat to him. Stilson dies from his beating, but Ender doesn’t find out until the end of the book.

The second time is at Battleschool. Ender has angered a older boy, Bonzo, by being a better commander than he is. Bonzo and his gang catch Ender alone in the shower. Ender knows that Bonzo will kill him if he refuses to fight, and that if he doesn’t completely beat Bonzo, his gang will kill him [Ender]. Bonzo and Ender fight. Ender kicks Bonzo in the face (just stunning him and breaking his nose he thinks.) Ender knows that if Bonzo was able to crawl away and lick his wounds, the fight would just continue later. Ender decides to finish the fight then. He kicks Bonzo hard in the groin, and he falls over.
Ender is transfered to Command School, so he is out of that situation after that. We later learn that Bonzo was dead on his feet after the kick to his head.

So, here’s where it all gets interesting. Were Ender’s actions morally justifiable? Do they count as legitimate force in self defense?

I suppose later we could discuss the other moral questions this book brings up. Or, it could just turn into a thread about when the movie is going to be released.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

P.S.
I will actually give my take on the morality of Ender’s actions, but it would make this post too long.

Funny, a guy in my science fiction literature class makes a big deal about that book. He talks about how great it is and uses it to compare to everything.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

proudnifi:

Ender didn’t consider the threat gone until after he had given the extended beating to the other boys. From what I remember, he didn’t relish the act(s); he saw a need to keep going to remove a threat against him.

He saw the options as 1) stop and probably get himself hurt or killed when next attacked and 2) keep going, break society’s rules and have a better shot at personal safety. The “society” wasn’t looking out for him either - he was a little boy being used by society. He couldn’t win either way.

But legitimate self defense is not when any threat is gone, it is when any threat to your life is gone. Once Stilson was down and out of it the immediate threat to his life was gone.

Morally he was culpable but as you say, society was more culpable.

 

[MulusChristi]

Greetings,
It has been years since I read the book, but I think the culpability goes much higher. My interpretation of the book was that the authorities were deliberately trying to breed rabid fighters. They wanted these boys to fight like this so that they could command effectively in the wars (on which Earth’s life depended). I saw the boys as invincibly ignorant (and deliberately kept so by the authorities) and hence not very culpable for their actions in these situations. The adults, however, were very culpable for what was happening. They were basicly setting these situations up. Thus I think it is not very relevant to discuss Ender’s culpability. The deck was being deliberately stacked against him and he had been given no moral tools for dealing with it.

Since we’re spoiling here, I find the ending a real let down. The novel is incredibly excitng and full of conflict and then at the end, we find out that somehow Ender was able to make nice with the Hive Queen and the Hegemon.

After reading this book I went on to the sequel, Speaker for the Dead. I found that one very bizarre and had the feeling that Card was trying to work in some weird ideas I didn’t understand. Now that I have studied some Mormon “theology” (strictly for apologetic purposes), I suspect some Mormon mumbo jumbo was being worked in.

The third book, Xenocide, I found (name removed by moderator)enetrable and gave up on.

 

[proudnifi]

I just don’t see Ender as culpable. Ender simply wanted to stop a threat and responded to the degree he believed necessary to stop the threat. He wasn’t trying to kill anyone and the authorities kept the full effects of his actions from him as they knew he would be upset.

I am intrigued by the idea that self-defence is only legitimate when used to defend life. I would consider self-defense legitimate to prevent bodily harm. Deadly force is a different flavor, of course, with a higher standard.

 

[Isidore_AK]

His actions have always seemed perfectly reasonable to me. When you have to fight, you fight to win. Period. There is no such thing as non-lethal force. Any time you use force you may kill (even if accidentally) your opponent. He fought in self-defense, and was therefore justified in using lethal force in both situations.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

proudnifi:

I just don’t see Ender as culpable. Ender simply wanted to stop a threat and responded to the degree he believed necessary to stop the threat. He wasn’t trying to kill anyone and the authorities kept the full effects of his actions from him as they knew he would be upset.

I am intrigued by the idea that self-defence is only legitimate when used to defend life. I would consider self-defense legitimate to prevent bodily harm. Deadly force is a different flavor, of course, with a higher standard.

Lethal self-defense is only legitimate when your life is in danger.

If a man breaks into your home you are free to defend yourself, even unto his death but when that man is down and unconscous you are not free to keep beating him.

Ender’s goal was not self-defense, it was to use Stilson to set an example.

It stopped being self-defense when Stilson was out of the fight. Ender decided to go on to teach Stilson’s friends a lesson.

From the way I read the Catechism Ender is morally culpable.

2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. “The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not.”

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.

Again, “if a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful”.

 

[Angainor]

Ender’s Game is different from average science fiction which is usually filled with Modernist “giant leap for mankind” kind of garbage.

When Ender was fighting “for mankind” he quickly got burned out. “Mankind” is too abstract a concept. He had to take a break and go back to Earth and visit with his sister to remeber what he was really fighting for. Families, relationships… people.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Angainor:

Ender’s Game is different from average science fiction which is usually filled with Modernist “giant leap for mankind” kind of garbage.

When Ender was fighting “for mankind” he quickly got burned out. “Mankind” is too abstract a concept. He had to take a break and go back to Earth and visit with his sister to remeber what he was really fighting for. Families, relationships… people.

But what that really what the burn out was? Or was it just burn out from studying and being away from everyone?

After all, Ender did not find out that he was actually fighting until the fight was over.