Endless Jihad

[pbaylis]

Someone help me out here. I am a Catholic from New Zealand and, by the way, also a believer in the apparitions at Medjugorje.

I have just been reading the article “Endless Jihad”, and I’m not sure I like what I’m reading.

Essentially, it seems to be saying that we should ignore the general Muslim defence, which states “Don’t tar us all with the same brush as the extremist faction of our religion”. It is calling this defence a lie and a smokescreen. It justifies this by saying such things as “why did Muslims all over the world burst into joyful, spontaneous celebrations when the hijacked jetliners slammed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon”.

From a purely objective viewpoint (as I come from New Zealand), I am very surprised that this article is endorsed by a Catholic website. I understand the American perspective and deep distrust and fear for their lives, but Catholicism isn’t about “America”.

If you need an objective reason why the Muslim world burst into song when the US buildings were aeroplaned, how about this:
Muslims are deeply religious and the idea of having the world ruled by a country that is in steep moral decline is very unpalatable.

 

[Muslim]

pbaylis:

Someone help me out here. I am a Catholic from New Zealand and, by the way, also a believer in the apparitions at Medjugorje.

I have just been reading the article “Endless Jihad”, and I’m not sure I like what I’m reading.

Essentially, it seems to be saying that we should ignore the general Muslim defence, which states “Don’t tar us all with the same brush as the extremist faction of our religion”. It is calling this defence a lie and a smokescreen. It justifies this by saying such things as “why did Muslims all over the world burst into joyful, spontaneous celebrations when the hijacked jetliners slammed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon”.

From a purely objective viewpoint (as I come from New Zealand), I am very surprised that this article is endorsed by a Catholic website. I understand the American perspective and deep distrust and fear for their lives, but Catholicism isn’t about “America”.

If you need an objective reason why the Muslim world burst into song when the US buildings were aeroplaned, how about this:
Muslims are deeply religious and the idea of having the world ruled by a country that is in steep moral decline is very unpalatable.

hey,
welcome to the forum…
umm…
“why did Muslims all over the world burst into joyful, spontaneous celebrations when the hijacked jetliners slammed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon”
is VERY misleading…the only place that it showed was Palestine… and at that time it seemed like an attack on America which I can bet you, more than just Muslims were happy at… We are hated by most of the world… its good that you are open minded…but unfortunately people arent that open minded…this will get you far in life… take care

 

[jonfan]

Well first let me say that despite what you might see on the news America is not in total moral decline. That is what mass media wants you to think. True, America does have it’s problems like any other country. I see news reports about Europe that are calling the continent Post-Christian Europe. I am married to a European and when I visited I saw strong faith in Catholicism. Beware of Media False Advertising. As far as all Muslims creating Jihad I simply do not believe that is true. There are extremist governments in control that make people do these things as well as people who just want to kill westerners. Unfortunately just like the Book of Mormon that has been rewritten certain Muslim spin off groups have re-written the koran. So to answer your question yes America does have enemies in the middle east and around the world. People always want to take pot shots at America. But Here is the truth. The extreme Muslims want to kill anybody who does not believe what they believe. Very similar to the nazis. God Bless you and New Zeland And God Bless america.

 

[pbaylis]

Yes, God bless you, but this is just the type of response I would expect from an American. I understand that it’s just too difficult for any objectivity to emerge. Does anypne from any other country have a response? I don’t think it’s right to judge ANYBODY let alone a whole nation of people, many of whom are genuinely peaceful. Judgement is for God and what happened to “turn the other cheek”. Can we really apply such a statement to an event such as 911? I wonder what the Muslim world would think if the USA did nothing about it and just let it go. The problem is that this wouldn’t have gone down well with George Bush’s chances for a second term.

And what of war? In the old testament is appears to be endorse by God. Does Jesus coming put an end to this idea? Should retaliation be endorsed. Lots of questions emerge.

jonfan:

Well first let me say that despite what you might see on the news America is not in total moral decline. That is what mass media wants you to think. True, America does have it’s problems like any other country. I see news reports about Europe that are calling the continent Post-Christian Europe. I am married to a European and when I visited I saw strong faith in Catholicism. Beware of Media False Advertising. As far as all Muslims creating Jihad I simply do not believe that is true. There are extremist governments in control that make people do these things as well as people who just want to kill westerners. Unfortunately just like the Book of Mormon that has been rewritten certain Muslim spin off groups have re-written the koran. So to answer your question yes America does have enemies in the middle east and around the world. People always want to take pot shots at America. But Here is the truth. The extreme Muslims want to kill anybody who does not believe what they believe. Very similar to the nazis. God Bless you and New Zeland And God Bless america.

 

[jonfan]

I did have objectivity. I said I do not believe all Muslims are jihadist. That would be silly. Did you miss that part? I think maybe your problem is with American politics rather then Muslim Jihad.

 

[John_of_Woking]

pbaylis:

Someone help me out here. I am a Catholic from New Zealand and, by the way, also a believer in the apparitions at Medjugorje.

I have just been reading the article “Endless Jihad”, and I’m not sure I like what I’m reading.

Essentially, it seems to be saying that we should ignore the general Muslim defence, which states “Don’t tar us all with the same brush as the extremist faction of our religion”. It is calling this defence a lie and a smokescreen. It justifies this by saying such things as “why did Muslims all over the world burst into joyful, spontaneous celebrations when the hijacked jetliners slammed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon”.

From a purely objective viewpoint (as I come from New Zealand), I am very surprised that this article is endorsed by a Catholic website. I understand the American perspective and deep distrust and fear for their lives, but Catholicism isn’t about “America”.

If you need an objective reason why the Muslim world burst into song when the US buildings were aeroplaned, how about this:
Muslims are deeply religious and the idea of having the world ruled by a country that is in steep moral decline is very unpalatable.

Hi I am English. I don’t think objectivity can be achieved by anyone philosophically speaking wherever you happen to reside. Men are conditioned by culture, education e.t.c. The only thing that we can be sure is objective is: Revealed Truth. I.e. Truth handed down us to from God, through Christ.

Nevertheless that is an aside. Personally speaking I have been to Medjugorje myself, I had a spirtiually enriching time. However, Do I believe in its authenticity? No, not 100% or even 60 %. One must not forget that the Church does not recognise this place. It is better to stick to Fatima, Lourdes e.t.c. Maybe it will be recognised in time but best not to lay too much stock in it. Indeed that is a weak justification in the Article you mentioned. Of course not all Muslims celebrated Sept 11th but a sizeable minority did.

Therefore it is incumbent upon us to try ever more zealously to dialogue with Islam and preach Christ’s message of peace. Clear up the false notion pervading the Islamic world that in some way Christianity equates to the secular west. Fundamentally we must pray for an end to the vitriolic anti-semitism that is evident in much Islamic thought and culture. If Islam is a religion of peace let it show us that but first do as JPII did, let us meet Muslims face to face, find the points of convergence and then let us dialogue openly and honestly.

Finally, I really don’t believe the world is ‘ruled’ by America. It is the forces of darkness that really threaten the world. Evil is endemic in America, the EU, China, Nigeria, the Middle East. The only thing we can and must do is pray, fast and be a light on the hills. Lets not look at the plank in America’s eye before examining the log in ours. In both NZ and the UK we have our own battles to fight, i.e. abortion, euthanasia, the philosophy of autonomy and relativism.

Peace, John

 

[Cristiano]

pbaylis:

Yes, God bless you, but this is just the type of response I would expect from an American. I understand that it’s just too difficult for any objectivity to emerge. Does anypne from any other country have a response? I don’t think it’s right to judge ANYBODY let alone a whole nation of people, many of whom are genuinely peaceful. Judgement is for God and what happened to “turn the other cheek”. Can we really apply such a statement to an event such as 911? I wonder what the Muslim world would think if the USA did nothing about it and just let it go. The problem is that this wouldn’t have gone down well with George Bush’s chances for a second term.

And what of war? In the old testament is appears to be endorse by God. Does Jesus coming put an end to this idea? Should retaliation be endorsed. Lots of questions emerge.

I appears to me that you have strong stereotypes about Americans. It looks to me that you already judged them to be narrow minded (270 millions of them). Other countries have been invoved in the war and that is a clear answer to your question. Under some conditions even Catholics are allowed to go to war and to kill. Is the present war morally justified? Afghanistan probably yes, Iraq probably not. Was George Bush alone that made the decision? Nope, he was supported by the elected representatives of the people.

 

[jonfan]

Well said John. I do believe we can be objective to a point as common sense dictates.
I do agree that evil is everywhere in the world. It is not just prone to one country. I think some Arab nations and Muslim followers might look at us like we are heathens. The reason being is that we practice democracy and free society. Just as God gave us free will so does western culture to an extent. These Judeo/ Christian beliefs are what our societies have been found upon.
This is where the religious difference comes in. They believe in a strict law which elimanates free choice which in turn can reduce sin and evil. This is flawed however. This simply will fail and this is where Satan will plant his seeds. Not by Jihad; but when these countries are eventually free. Politicians, like our own, will make the same mistake about what is free and God given rights as we have in the west. I.E. Abortion, Capital Punishment, etc…
Your last point is very valid. We need to take care of our own problems in our respective countries. If America ruled the world where is my little island? lol
God bless,

Jon

 

[manualman]

pbaylis, your view of America and Americans is as warped and prejudiced as you accuse Americans of being towards muslims.

If my country currently rules the world, then we are doing a right poor job of it. Seems to me that nations all around do what is in their own interest and it takes a pretty steep provocation before the USA reacts forcefully. Care to cite a nation in history that found itself in a position of almost total military supremancy that behaved in a more civilized manner towards its neighbors? In that light, the USA has plenty of warts in her history, but not so shabby when you consider we are made up of the same kinds of sinful, greedy, lustful and envious human beings that every other nation in history has been.

Humans are humans, sinful and fallen. Put huge power in the hand of a group of any of them, and most will use it selfishly. Thus it is silly to denigrate any group, be it ALL muslims or ALL Americans for their behavior.

On the other hand, it IS legitimate to criticize the foundational principles of large groups. IMO, Islam and specifically the Sharia is proscribes is inherently disrespectful of human dignity in regards to religious free speech and rights ( freedom of evangelization and conversion).