Eternity has to have a beginning but it can be endless

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Bahman

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Eternity is define as continuous time without beginning and end. Here we provide an argument to show that eternity has to have a beginning but it could be endless. When we said that eternity does not have any end or beginning we mean that if it takes infinity to reach to eternal future or past if we start from now. It is simple to understand that it takes infinite amount of waiting from eternal past to reach now which is impossible hence we cannot have eternal past. This means that everything which is time bound has to have a beginning which start from finite past too.
 
Eternity in a time line is meaningless. Eternity outside of the timeline is all there is.
 
The more “timey” “times” are, the more they seem to have beginnings.

Life is like a lasagne that the best Italian grandmother in the world would make - LOTS of layers!

It’s great to see your imagination (as investigative tool) getting fired up, Bahman!

I love approximations:
  • the more causing and less caused
  • the less causing and more caused
  • the less infinite
  • the more infinite
  • the more than infinite
Apparently Godel showed that, in maths (which is one lens to look at things through) there is only: slightly less than infinity, and slightly more than infinity.

I see these as represented by the curves traced by filings beside a magnet.
 
Bahman said:
Eternity is define as continuous time without beginning and end.
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I think here is your problem. You understand eternity as simply a larger quantity or extent of time. It is not simply an infinite extent of time.
Bahman said:
This means that everything which is time bound has to have a beginning which start from finite past too.
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Yes. Eternity is not time-bound.
 
Bahman said:
Outside time is a meaningless thing. Time is not like space.
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If you are not willing to consider that time is created by God, and God is beyond time, this discussion is not going to get anywhere.

By the way, according to Einstein, time is a lot like space.
 
Bahman said:
Outside time is a meaningless thing. Time is not like space.
Click to expand...
We don’t know exactly how meaningless. I presume it all comes in many layers. Already scientists have reportedly discovered that in the next universe are 4 dimensions of space alone, not counting time.

Therefore we could probably speak of “time-like dimensions” and “space-like dimensions”.

Groups of dimensions come on sort of “bands” on a “spectrum” or “spectrums” whereby certain groups of dimensions are more “visible”, hence the traditional well-known ones.

Complex numbers are another hint at it all.

Gravity waves likewise. In our usual circumstances our use of gravity is like the supertanker in the surf.

The radio spectrum was only recently discovered.

It’s our nature to “proceed” and grow, forwards in the time given to us in our set of dimensions.

In a nutshell, what a marvel!
 
Vic_Taltrees_UK said:
We don’t know exactly how meaningless. I presume it all comes in many layers. Already scientists have reportedly discovered that in the next universe are 4 dimensions of space alone, not counting time.
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Ya see there, that’s what gets me. Scientists didn’t “discover” another universe by actually going there, like Columbus did the new world. They “deduced” it through mathematics and physics and other stuff. In other words it was revealed to them through their studies. And this is accepted as good scientific practise, even though not all scientists agree with the findings, or the deductions based on the findings. But when religious people talk about God and his various attributes which theologians have discovered through their own studies, we’re pooh-poohed and demanded proof. :mad: Scientists have no actual proof of their theories of the universe either, only their clever ideas.

I have a great respect for scientists, but unless you can show me a picture of another universe I remain skeptical about it.

[Rant over]
 
Vic_Taltrees_UK said:
The more “timey” “times” are, the more they seem to have beginnings.

Life is like a lasagne that the best Italian grandmother in the world would make - LOTS of layers!

It’s great to see your imagination (as investigative tool) getting fired up, Bahman!

I love approximations:
  • the more causing and less caused
  • the less causing and more caused
  • the less infinite
  • the more infinite
  • the more than infinite
Apparently Godel showed that, in maths (which is one lens to look at things through) there is only: slightly less than infinity, and slightly more than infinity.

I see these as represented by the curves traced by filings beside a magnet.
Click to expand...
Could you please elaborate on what Godel showed?
 
Beryllos said:
If you are not willing to consider that time is created by God, and God is beyond time, this discussion is not going to get anywhere.

By the way, according to Einstein, time is a lot like space.
Click to expand...
What do you mean with God is beyond the time? Do you mean changeless?
 
Wesrock said:
No. We’ve been over this before. Eternal means no beginning and no end. It doesn’t even have to imply any time.
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We use beginning and end for events in time. Could you please define what do you mean with beginning and end?
 
Bahman said:
We use beginning and end for events in time. Could you please define what do you mean with beginning and end?
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And while we’re defining things, maybe we should define time as well. I believe St. Augustine said that he knew what time was until you asked him. 🙂

I’ll throw out a definition. Time is a privation. Just as darkness is a privation of light. Time is a privation of eternity. Time is a restriction. Interesting idea.
 
Bahman said:
Outside time is a meaningless thing. Time is not like space.
Click to expand...
What?? Time is *very *similar to space – that is why they are sometimes referred to collectively as space-time.

You can’t exist “outside” space either (as in, in a physical location outside of space), but it’s clear that space is not needed for certain things to exist. This has been made quite clear by recent scientific theories – at one point, time and space did not exist. This implies that something “outside” time AND space caused the universe (since they could not cause themselves). Any claim to the contrary is directly contradicted by the evidence. Your logic here is thus fatally flawed.
 
Bahman said:
Eternity is define as continuous time without beginning and end.
Click to expand...
This is not necessarily the Christian definition of eternity as relates to God and I don’t think very many Christian philosophers accept it today. Interestingly, there isn’t a *precise *definition of God’s eternity, there is some debate about it. Some argue that God is eternal in time (that is, he stretches through all time); others argue that the verses referring to God’s eternity actually mean he is “outside” time. Regardless, our argument as it has been put forward would not, as you seem to think, conflict at all with the Christian view. It might conflict (in theory), with a particular interpretation, but that would merely prove that interpretation to be wrong and one of the others to be correct.

In the a-temporal view, God’s eternity is more like the number “0” than the set of all numbers from (-infinity to +infinity). It’s not really *any *time at all. You really *must *start listening to William Lane Craig if you are interested in this. Eternity is one of his favorite topics and he goes over it in depth.

Please read: reasonablefaith.org/defenders-3-podcast/transcript/t03-05

reasonablefaith.org/defenders-3-podcast/transcript/t03-06

reasonablefaith.org/defenders-3-podcast/transcript/t03-06

If you would rather listen to videos, go here: reasonablefaith.org/defenders-3-podcast/s3

Videos 5-7 are on time and how that relates to God. The discussion is complex, but truly fascinating.
Here we provide an argument to show that eternity has to have a beginning but it could be endless. When we said that eternity does not have any end or beginning we mean that if it takes infinity to reach to eternal future or past if we start from now. It is simple to understand that it takes infinite amount of waiting from eternal past to reach now which is impossible hence we cannot have eternal past. This means that everything which is time bound has to have a beginning which start from finite past too.
Click to expand...
Actually, for once I agree with you. Shock and horror! What has happened to the world! 😃 😉

Your logic correctly comprehends that an infinity of time cannot, properly speaking, exist because it causes logical contradictions. Therefore, time had to have a beginning. This is completely consistent with and indeed, supports the Christian view of God creating time and the universe. William Lane Craig has actually used this reasoning to argue *for *God.

So who knew? In all your logic statements you actually reasoned yourself to a position that *supports *the Christian worldview, rather than refuting it. Imagine that. 🙂
 
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