For want of a lot of good men

[JimG]

“I meet them constantly at parties and other social events – beautiful, smart, single Catholic women who just want to find a good man to love and honour. Yet this pool of women seems to keep getting bigger, while the number of Godly, marriageable men is swiftly dropping.

https://www.catholicweekly.com.au/for-want-of-a-lot-of-good-men/

 

[ChuckB]

From the attached article:

I can talk to any young woman in my social circle and they will, one and all, say the same thing: there just aren’t any men. What we mean by this is there is a frightening scarcity of men aged 25-35 who are church-going, single and worldly-wise.

Most men I meet have two out of three of these qualities, with the latter often lacking. If they’re single church-goers, they’re usually awkward and in want of basic social awareness (a big turn-off for most women). If they’re more worldly, they’re generally not single or not religious.

Quick background: I’m a middle aged guy, non-Catholic, who is married to a Catholic woman. We got married later in life than is “traditional.” (Hmmm…I wonder if she “settled” for me because she was afraid that I was her last chance? Poor girl.)

Anyway…there is a young man who often sits at our table for coffee and donuts after Sunday Mass. He’s in his late 20’s and just finished his PhD in physics. He was recently hired at a well-known research institute and I’m sure he takes home a very handsome pay check. I’ve known him for about a year and during that time I can’t remember a Sunday when he was not at Mass. Yeah, the guy’s a bit of a science nerd. Yeah, he’s spent the past several years in the lab and in the library with his nose in buried in text books, so yeah, he’s a bit awkward socially. But he’s a smart, nice, funny, not bad-looking guy. But like the author of the attached article, the few women I’ve seen him approach are “turned off” by his lack of polished social skills and within a very few minutes have determined that he’s not worth their time. If some girl would just exert a little bit of effort to get to know him, or at the very least not just dismiss him out of hand, she’d probably find that he’s a diamond in the rough - and he’s not really THAT rough.

tl/dr: I don’t feel sorry for those women.

 

[hoping4more]

Seriously, I bet most of this women’s problem is they want prince -charming instead of prince-bring-home-a-regular-paycheck.

 

[JimG]

From the original article:

"I went to a wedding in Seattle last year and met a woman about my age who asked me if she should move to Australia to try to find a husband, due to the lack of Catholic men in her social sphere.

The fact that this experience is almost universally shared speaks for itself. And unfortunately, the growing desperation fuelled by this trend is beginning to result in some rather alarming outcomes. I personally know three Catholic women in their 20s and 30s who abandoned their beliefs in order to be with a man, all in the last few years. One met a man online who turned out to be married (though separated) with children, but she dated him anyway.

Being so thoroughly convinced all my life that marriage was my vocation, it has come as a painful, and frankly humiliating, shock to find myself 32 years old and alone. So I completely understand the desperation that is now driving women to enter or cling to relationships even if they’re toxic, harmful or illicit."

 

[Cruciferi]

But like the author of the attached article, the few women I’ve seen him approach are “turned off” by his lack of polished social skills and within a very few minutes have determined that he’s not worth their time.

Honestly, he’d probably be a better fit with another Academic. He’ll probably meet someone at a University not at Church.

If they’re single church-goers, they’re usually awkward and in want of basic social awareness (a big turn-off for most women).” -Article

Yeah, that’s a really negative assumption to place on us single Church attending men.

I bet most of this women’s problem is they want prince -charming instead of prince-bring-home-a-regular-paycheck.

I don’t believe anyone should settle out of desperation. But the author is coming across as rather bitter and unrealistic.

 

[JimG]

I recall a time when a lot of men and women would marry almost immediately after high school. I knew guys who did this, as well as some who married girls from the neighborhood.

But then, everybody started going to college. So they delayed marriage. Then after college it seemed imperative to start a career, further delaying marriage. Now, it seems a lot of men are not even interested in marriage. Meanwhile the biological clocks ticks on. Families are not formed.

 

[Cruciferi]

I recall a time when a lot of men and women would marry almost immediately after high school. I knew guys who did this, as well as some who married girls from the neighborhood.

Well, let’s be honest, that was probably from 1950-1980. Men could get a good job out of high school, provide for a family, and afford a decent house. My folks married out of high school and there were many opportunities for young men back then.

But then, everybody started going to college

With Manufacturing evaporating in the US, High School wasn’t enough. You either needed to learn a Trade or go to College.

Then after college it seemed imperative to start a career, further delaying marriage.

Yup, because it takes longer than ever to get a good job, save money, and build credit.

Now, it seems a lot of men are not even interested in marriage.

I’m interested but it’s nothing to pursue lightly. Young folks should get their finances in order first.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

Where are the good men? They’re where she passed them over in her 20’s. When women don’t signal readiness to marry anytime soon, favoring their career and their “freedom” instead, men may have less incentive to step up economically to be ready to marry. This is reflected in the college enrollment numbers which are now very noticeably skewed toward women. This is something that is almost always forgotten in these discussions: that incentives matter a lot. Especially to men who are not in the top 20% of all available men.

It is said in Russia among women that if one wants to be married to a general, one needs to marry a lieutenant. That socially awkward young man attending Mass could be a good lieutenant to marry. But if a woman won’t take a deeper look at him, she’ll never know. If she ridicules him to her friends, they’ll never know even if one of them might have been willing to date him. Marrying such a man requires that a woman humble herself and be aware of her true marriage market value and consequently adopt a better attitude about choosing love as an action. In this day and age of Facebook and Instagram, I’m not seeing a lot of that. Women used to be willing to marry a man for his potential, I’m not seeing this as much anymore, they want the result and are less willing to do the work let alone the sacrifice to support a man to get there.

All that said, no one is entitled to a spouse and most people have to humble themselves in the context of searching, courting and marrying if they are to experience anything remotely resembling success. I know my place among men, do available women in my league know theirs? In my experience, that would be mostly no. Very little I can do about that but at least I can pray and I can get out of the house.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Yup, because it takes longer than ever to get a good job, save money, and build credit.

When we got married, we both had pretty crappy jobs. We lived in a small apartment and ate a lot of tuna casserole.

A fat bank account should not be required for marriage.

The ability to go into debt is a precursor to marriage? Yikes!

 

[JimG]

When I got marriage, I had no finances to get in order, and a job which was not stable. That job ended about six months into the marriage. I scrambled to find another one. About six months into the new job my wife had a medical emergency and was in the hospital for a month. Because the job was new we had no insurance. The doc told me he didn’t work for free but was very patient. After we got settled we both got different jobs and paid off the doc and the hospital. No one can predict the future.

 

[Cruciferi]

When we got married, we both had pretty crappy jobs. We lived in a small apartment and ate a lot of tuna casserole.

Well, uh, good for you? :man_shrugging:t2: That doesn’t sound appealing to me. Remember this isn’t the 1980’s anymore.

A fat bank account should not be required for marriage.

What’s your definition of fat? $10,000? $20,000? $50,000? Surely you would advise some financial responsibility

Considering that money problems contribute to divorce, I wouldn’t be so quick to throw financial considerations out the window.

The ability to go into debt is a precursor to marriage? Yikes!

Credit is a tool that’s necessary in today’s world. Maybe YOU didn’t need it as much 30 years ago but today it’s linked to just about everything. You don’t need to abuse it and sink into debt either. No, you just need a good credit score.

When I got marriage, I had no finances to get in order, and a job which was not stable.

Are we talking about 40+ years ago? The economy has changed drastically since then.

No one can predict the future.

There’s a difference between Preparing and Predicting.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Good heavens, how old do you think I am?

There is no reason to think people need to have 10K + in the bank in order to get married.

Those who buy into the credit myth are going to be dragging debt around for decades.

There is a lot to be said for getting married and learning to live according to your means. That way, when you are 95 years old, like me and @JimG, when bad times come you know that you can weather it.

 

[Cruciferi]

You know not of what you speak!!!

Your Opinion

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

That part about the wedding in Seattle made me laugh. The person wanted to know if they should go to austrailia to find a good Catholic man… Seattle and austrailia are not exactly Catholic havens. If the girl is serious she should move to the midwest. Lincoln perhaps. Its poor, its polluted, its flat and it sucks but the faith is alive and Catholic men abound…
Lol

 

[Convert3]

I graduated high school in 1974 and college in 1978. I was working three jobs to get through school and still graduated with student loan debt. Inflation was taking off and the economy was heading into depression. Unemployment was rising in Southern California where I grew up. Rents were high and good jobs were scarce. I landed a decent job, only to be laid off a few months later as business suffered. I married in 1979, though we were both broke. We got by working 2-3 part-time jobs each. I ended up joining the Air Force since when Reagan was elected he started building up the military.
It wasn’t just me that struggled. Many people didn’t get financially sound until the early to mid 80s. The years before us people had to deal with the Vietnam war, both in Vietnam and at home. Drugs became much more widely used, screwing up lives for many. The sexual revolution led many to young parenthood. There was also the ongoing cold war and much more racism affecting lives.
Mortgage rates got as high as 16% for perfect credit, and higher for poor credit. Car loans were over 20%. I was finally able to buy my first home in 1987 at 11% interest. I sold it in late 1991 for enough to pay off the loan and realtor.
My son, a millennial, graduated high school working for Starbucks. Became the youngest store manager in his region. Attended college that I paid for, until Starbucks started picking up the tuition his last year. He married another Starbucks manager and had my grandson. He now works in the Starbucks corporate office.
He’s had it much easier getting started in life than I have.
I know some are struggling today, but it’s not the economy. Iraq and Afghanistan are terrible, but not anything like Vietnam was.
Inflation has been minimal.
My generation had it easy compared to my parents generation.
Today’s youth need to step up and take responsibility for their lives. Life is hard. Don’t expect to be given anything unless you earn it. There’s plenty of opportunities out there.
God Bless

 

[JimG]

Lincoln, Nebraska would be a great choice for finding a Catholic spouse. The writer of the article is from Australia, which is already short on Catholic prospects.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

I feel for the author. It sounds like Australia is a difficult place to find a Catholic husband; and emigrating in the hope of finding someone in a country with more Catholics would be a pretty drastic and unrealistic option for most.

I will say, though, that it is smart to take a second look at the guy who seems a little socially awkward, if he is otherwise a good man. Social awkwardness can be overcome with time and practice. And if it mainly stems from shyness, you can help him build confidence.

Also, I recommend this book to single women, with a caveat or two: Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good-Enough by Lori Gottlieb. Caveat 1 is that it is written from a secular perspective, so there will be a few things to take with a grain of salt (as with any almost any book). Caveat 2 is that the title is a bit misleading (the publisher, not the author, chose it): It is not about “settling” but about doing a little soul-searching and reframing your perspective on men and dating. Truly excellent and honest book. I will fully admit I was among those who needed to hear it, and I am glad I did before it was too late.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

There is no reason to think people need to have 10K + in the bank in order to get married

They don’t have to, but if a man or woman wants to proceed in that way, they can.
I would not have married any man who didn’t own and pay the mortgage on a small house before marriage.
I have met other men besides my husband who did this. One guy lived with his parents for several years to pay off his school loan and save enough for a down payment on a home, then he married.
Responsibility and maturity of this type is a good thing.

I realize there are always people who marry without much money and manage to make it together, but it’s a risk. Some of us would like to skip that risk. Some guys think it is part of being a man to have your financial ducks in a row and be a good provider before they get married and presumably have kids. I find that admirable and I’m sure a lot of women do too.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I will say, though, that it is smart to take a second look at the guy who seems a little socially awkward, if he is otherwise a good man. Social awkwardness can be overcome with time and practice.

The guy approaching women also has to be cognizant of the type of women he’s approaching. As someone else said, if he’s a brilliant but nerdy academic, he should be looking for women who are also in academia or otherwise are on his level intellectually. They’ll best appreciate his good points while understanding that many brilliant people can be a bit socially awkward, and perhaps they share some of the same issues. I’m not really sure that coffee and donuts is the best place to be trying to connect with women unless you have something else in common with them, such as you know them also from work or a community activity or they’re your old classmate from Catholic school, etc.

 

[redbetta]

I see a lot of good Catholic young men on CAF. I seem to be the only Catholic twenty-something female that poses regularly on here. The rest of the twenty-somethings are men. Good, orthodox, and nerdy men. Have these women tried online dating? Also, what kind of social awareness are these women expecting? Knowing where to put the fork and the knife next to your plate?