Gay marriage OK because homosexuals born that way and deserve to have romantic relationships too?

[court14]

The Church got this doctrine from Jesus Christ who is the founder of the Church and He gave Peter, the first pope, the keys and told him to build His Church. He also told the first bishops, the apostles this,“What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.”
QUOTE=thewalrus
Why does sex have to be productive for you? Are you that much of a utilitarian? Sex has intrinsic value for one thing - pleasure. Second, it strengthens the bond between two people. Reproduction is helpful, sure, but it is not as valuable as it was long ago. Our planet is fully populated. We’re not gonna die out anytime soon. That’s not to say that children should be seen as a “burden,” only that a decline in reproduction rates would certainly not be harmful. There is simply no reason to prohibit same-sex marriage.

thewalrus,
Overpopulation is a myth. The whole world could fit into houses side by side in the state of Texas. With our technology today we could feed the poor in the whole world over and over again and again! There is zero population growth in parts of western Europe. They are calling for women to have babies now because they need more people to care for the aging population. Japan has 90% deaths compared to practically no births now. China is allowing only one male child per couple. Sex is for procreation and the unitive self giving of the husband and wife. This is a beautiful representation of Christ’s self-giving love to His Church. It is holy.

1. Jesus was not approving a “power structure” for the church. He is speaking of his message only which is the key. Jesus is very antagonistic toward the hirarchy of the temple so it is unlikely he would want the same system which had the common people answering to a group of elites. He was a wandering preacher and his most scathing words were to the “experts”…
2. Do you have stats that show the world has and will not have a problem with overpopulation?

 

[Maso]

The logic fails.

And… when laws are codified on the basis of a falacy… there will be bad laws, and that is detremental.

Consider… If I were to press the law makers for a definition of the term “sexual orientation”… eventually it would come down to homosexuality ( among other things ) is a “sexual orientation”.

Hummm…

But isn’t homosexuality inherantly and by definition in fact a sexual dis-orientation…???

If these lawmakers can explain to me how a sexual orientation can be a sexual dis-orientation… then I will explain to you how one ( 1 ) can equal zero ( 0 ).

                           1 = 0 ...?!
                           Go figure...

This is perfectly sound logic, and you’d have to live in a world of denial not to see it.

 

[SallyMargie]

The problem with the NARTH’s approach is that they are a group of “experts” who believe and assume there is something intrinsically wrong and pathological about homosexuality and that it can be “healed”, when in fact no one can prove that. That’s why NARTH is a fringe organization.

I don’t know who is telling you it’s a ‘fringe’ organization, but it’s obviously someone who doesn’t want word to get out!
It’s a known fact that many who believe they are homosexual by nature have had difficult childhoods and more than likely have either been abused physically or emotionally. That’s why the programs for homosexuals are so dangerous.I’m talking about the programs many public schools now have.) They suggest “could you be gay?” and actually promote homosexuality in that way. Too, the NC Register had an article by a woman whose gay father had taken her along to gay hangouts. She started a support group for children of homosexuals. Contact NCR for more info. They had this story a year or 2 ago and it only goes to show homosexuals may have been “recruited” without any inborn tendency towards homosexuality. Similarly, how many of the children adopted by homosexual couples turn out ‘straight’? (it’s the only lifestyle they’ve known.)

 

[goofyjim]

I don’t know who is telling you it’s a ‘fringe’ organization, but it’s obviously someone who doesn’t want word to get out!
It’s a known fact that many who believe they are homosexual by nature have had difficult childhoods and more than likely have either been abused physically or emotionally. That’s why the programs for homosexuals are so dangerous.I’m talking about the programs many public schools now have.) They suggest “could you be gay?” and actually promote homosexuality in that way. Too, the NC Register had an article by a woman whose gay father had taken her along to gay hangouts. She started a support group for children of homosexuals. Contact NCR for more info. They had this story a year or 2 ago and it only goes to show homosexuals may have been “recruited” without any inborn tendency towards homosexuality. Similarly, how many of the children adopted by homosexual couples turn out ‘straight’? (it’s the only lifestyle they’ve known.)

Funny I didn’t have a difficult childhood, wasn’t abused and wasn’t recruited. But by the age of 22 I knew I was different. I never acted on it but deep inside I knew I was homosexual. Guess what? There’s nothing wrong with me. I am what I am and there is no need to change my sexual orientation. If some feel that need, more power to them, but as long as one is not acting on it then there is no problem.

 

[SallyMargie]

Funny I didn’t have a difficult childhood, wasn’t abused and wasn’t recruited. But by the age of 22 I knew I was different. I never acted on it but deep inside I knew I was homosexual. Guess what? There’s nothing wrong with me. I am what I am and there is no need to change my sexual orientation. If some feel that need, more power to them, but as long as one is not acting on it then there is no problem.

Jim: I just took a break to eat breakfast since my last post here. I got to thinking; I’d better clarify or someone will come on and think I’m generalizing. I’m not. I do know some homosexuals were born with the inclination, and I don’t dispute that at all. I realize the road isn’t easy. But there are many more who likely WERE abused, raised by homosexual couples, or told by a counselor “have you ever considered you may be gay?” That’s all I’m saying.

And good for you to bring up “as long as one is not acting on it” since that’s really the bottom line.

 

[garycasella]

This not the Westboro Baptist web site, The Church has pretty clear teaching on homosexuality Homosexuality and its cause can be is complicated, just as any other behavoir, the Church does not comdemn those that have an inclination to Same Sex Attraction, but if one cannot see the disorder it brings to those that act on those inclinations as history and statistics lay it all out, which is pretty clear and don’t seem to have a grasp of the ideas of natural law well even without an eye infection see things a bit blurry. I

It really all comes down to fighting feelings in order to see truth which in logic should be clear. Any sex outside of marriage between a man and a women is disordered behavoir, it is just a matter of how far out one is willing to go, once you deny the line of where morality turns into immorality, the evil which can grow from it is limitless.

Some like the “so-called” minister from Westboro Baptist Church may want to preach that God hates fags, which is a lie, But God does wants all us to be chaste and seek His holiness.

Each of us have different crosses to carry and temptation to fight, so the only really question is; am I willing to carry the Cross that is given to me? no matter where it has come from? and do I trust in God enough to believe in Him and that He will give me the power of His Grace to carry it home? There is no judgment coming from those that attempt to follow Christ, but the self-judgement we impose on ourselves.

Don’t expect ot come to a Catholic forum to have a sinful behavoir be condoned

But please don’t leave here feeling condemned.
For only He has the power to be the final judge.

I question why you chose to be combative here. I gave the examples of WBC rantings as 1 (one) example of how many homosexuals are meant to feel, every day, as we go through our days, when we have people like that, and you, to deal with. You tell me not to come to the Catgolc Forum to have a sinful behavior condoned. How dare you tell me that this is why I came here? How entitled and self righteous can you be to know why I decided to post anything and then, of all the things I write about, you chose to challenge me on the Blepheritis in my eyes? How odd, bazaar. You, like so many, will never change. You, like so many, when challenged, state that the person doing the challenging is sinning. I have sinned in my life, yes, but being gay is not one of the sins that I count amongst the group. I am also a Roman Catholic and am respectful which entitles me to state an opinion and come on to this site. You did not read a word I said, because here you can do nothing but attack me. You need prayer and guidance far more than I do, for at least I am not so easily offended and challenged. I pity you, the author who has the audacity to call me out, when I did nothing, nothing but try to explain where many of us come from and how many of us might feel.

 

[garycasella]

Actually, unmarried heterosexuals don’t get a “pass” either. Everyone who is single is called to practice chastity. The only sexual activity allowed by God and the church is between a man and a woman who are married to each other. This excludes all single, divorced, and widowed people as well as homosexuals. Considering how late people marry these days and how short marriages last, I think there is a large number of heterosexuals who are called to the celibate life along with homosexuals. I don’t think God has singled out the homosexual person for some special sadistic punishment as you seem to imply. Celibacy is everyone’s calling unless and until they get married.

I am not clear about how you could include homosexuals in this when out of the groups named, homosexuals are the only ones NOT permitted to get married, so therefore, your plan would inflict a life of celibacy because the law disallows marriage between 2 consenting gay men or gay women. Your argument is a mute one. I am not trying to be abbrasive, simply point out the flaw in your plan.

 

[Numinous]

Numinous, you are completely right and I respect that fully. But how do you relate to others like me whose journey of questions and searching led me to reject that view? And what about Christians whose journey led them to reject African Americans as fully human? When a resulting “truth” comes out looking like something different than what we find exhibited in the life of Christ, I think that’s a good sign the questioning should continue.

I am no relativist. There is one truth, with many aspects, of course, but there are certain things which run contrary to the truth and cannot be countenanced as truth simply because we want certain things to be.

Any Christian who rejects the humanity of black people is the most sadly ironic person to ever walk the planet, since Christ preached to the Gentiles as well as the Jews.

 

[FrStephen]

Hi everyone. A friend of mine has come up with an argument for homosexual marriage that I can’t seem to defeat. He says that homosexuals should be allowed to marry because of the fact that they were born that way and also because they deserve to have romantic relationships too. He says it would be unjust to deprive them of equal rights just because they are attracted to the same sex. How do I counter this?

There is little or no proof that all gays are born this way. This is THE lie of the LGBT movement. A few are probably born with a predisposition as are some to other behaviors, but for the overwhelming majority, this is a behavioral choice or a conditioning.
Two things point to this: First, many turn away from gay behavior and second (and this will eventually expose this lie), gay adoption. If, let’s say 5% of the population are gay (because they are born this way), then if 100 gay couples adopt, it stands to reason that only 5 of those children will grow up to be gay. Now, no right thinking person believes that including gay people and that is why they foster gay adoption. Of 100 adopted kids into gay families, I believe the numbers will show even greater than 50% or more will grow up gay. They will be conditioned to this lifestyle and that is why they call it a lifestyle. It is chosen. And one last point, no one should have their rights derived from their behavior. This is another lie of the LGBT crowd.

 

[Numinous]

Japan has 90% deaths compared to practically no births now.

It’s so bad now in Japan (I live here) that the local city governments are giving cash sums to new parents. We just had our 5th daughter, and the city government dropped $4000 in my bank account a month later. So, yeah, even in this seemingly-crowded island country, overpopulation is a myth. The data is there; the evidence is available for any random dude on the Internet to debunk this myth.

 

[garycasella]

Jim: I just took a break to eat breakfast since my last post here. I got to thinking; I’d better clarify or someone will come on and think I’m generalizing. I’m not. I do know some homosexuals were born with the inclination, and I don’t dispute that at all. I realize the road isn’t easy. But there are many more who likely WERE abused, raised by homosexual couples, or told by a counselor “have you ever considered you may be gay?” That’s all I’m saying.

And good for you to bring up “as long as one is not acting on it” since that’s really the bottom line.

Please exucse me for interfering here, but as a gay man, and one who has known so for many years and has had many gay friends I have never met one who has had a therapist suggest that they might be homosexual, and I am a CSW. it would never happen except by an untrained therapist to even invite that idea into the discussion, that is not how therapy is handled. I do know some gay women who were raped as children and decided to never be with a man again and opened her heart to another woman and as of yet, I have never met any children of homosexual couples who also turned out gay indeed the opposite is usually true, that the children of gay men and woman are straight…and the “learned” issue is again disproved.

 

[pathia]

There is little or no proof that all gays are born this way. This is THE lie of the LGBT movement. A few are probably born with a predisposition as are some to other behaviors, but for the overwhelming majority, this is a behavioral choice or a conditioning.
Two things point to this: First, many turn away from gay behavior and second (and this will eventually expose this lie), gay adoption. If, let’s say 5% of the population are gay (because they are born this way), then if 100 gay couples adopt, it stands to reason that only 5 of those children will grow up to be gay. Now, no right thinking person believes that including gay people and that is why they foster gay adoption. Of 100 adopted kids into gay families, I believe the numbers will show even greater than 50% or more will grow up gay. They will be conditioned to this lifestyle and that is why they call it a lifestyle. It is chosen. And one last point, no one should have their rights derived from their behavior. This is another lie of the LGBT crowd.

wthrockmorton.com/2009/01/20/sexual-abuse-and-sexual-orientation-a-prospective-study/

Abuse in childhood does not lead to homosexuality, neither does sexual abuse in the case of lesbians. There is a mild increase in homosexuality in men that were molested as children, however it is not anywhere near a 100% thing. There is also the possibility that those men who prey on young boys go for the ones that are effeminate and most likely to be gay anyway. This study didn’t count for that variable though, as there’s no real way to eliminate it.

I don’t know a single gay person that wasn’t ‘different’ as a child. Most kids, including myself were pegged as ‘queer’ by the age of 8 in school. This is before sex even entered the equation.

 

[Bennie_P]

I question why you chose to be combative here. I gave the examples of WBC rantings as 1 (one) example of how many homosexuals are meant to feel, every day, as we go through our days, when we have people like that, and you, to deal with. You tell me not to come to the Catgolc Forum to have a sinful behavior condoned. How dare you tell me that this is why I came here? How entitled and self righteous can you be to know why I decided to post anything and then, of all the things I write about, you chose to challenge me on the Blepheritis in my eyes? How odd, bazaar. You, like so many, will never change. You, like so many, when challenged, state that the person doing the challenging is sinning. I have sinned in my life, yes, but being gay is not one of the sins that I count amongst the group. I am also a Roman Catholic and am respectful which entitles me to state an opinion and come on to this site. You did not read a word I said, because here you can do nothing but attack me. You need prayer and guidance far more than I do, for at least I am not so easily offended and challenged. I pity you, the author who has the audacity to call me out, when I did nothing, nothing but try to explain where many of us come from and how many of us might feel.

Please don’t pity me, but I welcome any prayer for me. Make it simple, that I am able to see God’s will in my life and that my love for my fellow grows with deep compassion and understanding. Thank you for your prayers, may God bless you and give you comfort from all pain and discomfort. You are truly in my prayers also.

 

[ladybri77]

No, it is only what the Church has required. It wouldn’t even make sense for God to require that.

Read Romans 1, it’s not okay with God. Also, in the new testament the Lord speaks of perversions. This isn’t anything I made up, the Lord says it. I have much compassion for the homosexual struggler as I am one, and I offer him my prayers and affirmation of him as a person.

In response to the other question, it is true, we don’t “choose” the feelings. It’s very complicated on how they came about. Yes, and some people have them who grew up in perfectly normal, loving environments. Satan is the ruler of this world, so things are not perfect. That’s why there’s birth defects, disease, etc. including and I emphasize “including” problems occurring in the womb where the brain is flooded with male or female hormones of the opposite sex of the baby, and just maybe this had an effect on how the child feels about himself and effect his future attractions, I don’t know. All I know is we don’t have to act on the feelings. I have chosen not to act on them because I know it would hurt me and also be against God’s will.

From my own personal experience, many books I’ve read on the subject, others testimonys, conferences I’ve attended, and support groups, and especially what the Lord has reavealed to me, many have been hurt deeply in their lives not just by parents, but by many people in many different situations which affects them. Either they choose unhealthy heterosexual or get involved in homosexual relationships to try to restore what has been broken. Just like the woman who had an emotionally absent, alcoholic father may, and I emphasize “may”, because people handle things differently, dates one alcoholic man after another to try and restore the broken relationship she had with her father. There are many books written on this subject that prove this is definitely true, that we are affected by our parenting on some level, but to different degrees. Thank you for listening.

 

[fix]

Actually, yes truth can change with time and does all the time. In this case, however, there was no change of truth, only a bad misunderstanding of it in the first place. The church finally came around on race and gender (relatively speaking, of course). It is time it did so with sexual orientation as well.

This is revisionist history. Please state where the magisterium has taught error or reversed any moral teaching.

If truth changes with time then there is no reason to accept your assertions on the matter. That would mean everything is a matter of opinion.

 

[Bennie_P]

Oh Bennie, you hurt me. You’re asking me to leave so soon? What would you do without me?

I’m not here to demonize anyone. I was under the impression this was an open forum for people to debate and discuss viewpoints. I never read anywhere that everyone had to agree. (What fun is there in that?..not to mention, what truth? I digress). If God is in control, then good, I’m glad he sent me here to debate with you. Perhaps it’s been too long since you’ve been exposed to alternate opinions. Anyways, I hate to tell you this but the burden of proof lies on you because you made the assertion. Here’s an example. Let’s take two twins. You say that one of them gets sick more often than the other. I say, “well prove it.” You say, “No! You prove it!” What do I have to prove? That your assertion should have never existed in the first place? You say, “well, someone else said this one gets sicker more.” I say, “yeah, but that doesn’t make it true does it, Bennie?” See how this works?

If two people practice safe sex, there is no difference between whether you like the same sex or opposite. I would even challenge you to present a common-sense reason since you’re being so stubborn with your non-existent sources. Now, I did assert that I am on the side of the scientific community. I’m not even sure how I could prove that other than the fact that there is no predominant opinion in the scientific literature that agrees with your original assertion.

I will go to sleep tonight, resting quite easy in the grace of God, thanks.

Sorry that I hurt you. If you want to use common sense approach then do so. For to do so you would have to agree that sex was attended to be between male and female for the basic tools given to each are made just for that purpose. for example you use a catcher’s mitt to catch a baseball, and not a baseball to catch another baseball.

Sex is not only about pleasure, just becuase something feels good is not reason enough to justify an act.

As to the link I gave you the writer gave good sound sources in the documentation, you just need to take time go through them with an open mind.

Judith Levine, Harmful to Minors: The Perils of Protecting Children from Sex, Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 2002; Bruce Rind, Philip Tromovitch, and Robert Bauserman, “A Meta-Analytic Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Using College Samples,” Psychological Bulletin, 124(1): 22-53 (July 1998).

Edward O. Laumann, John H. Gagnon, et al., The social organization of sexuality: Sexual practices in the United States, p. 293, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1994; Michael, et al., p. 176; David Forman and Clair Chilvers, “Sexual Behavior of Young and Middle-Aged Men in England and Wales,” British Medical Journal, 298: 1137-1142 (1989); and Gary Remafedi, et al., “Demography of Sexual Orientation in Adolescents,” Pediatrics, 89: 714-721 (1992).

R. S. Hogg, S. A. Strathdee, et al., “Modeling the Impact of HIV Disease on Mortality in Gay and Bisexual Men,” International Journal of Epidemiology, 26(3): 657-661, p. 659 (1997). Death as the result of HIV infection has dropped significantly since 1996. “Life Expectancy Hits New High in 2000; Mortality Declines for Several Leading Causes of Death,” CDC News Release, October 10, 2001, Nevertheless, it remains a significant factor in shortened life expectancy for homosexual practitioners.

another link for you acpeds.org/?CONTEXT=art&cat=22&art=50

**

**Risks of Homosexual Lifestyle to Children

**

Violence among homosexual partners is two to three times more common than among married heterosexual couples. 10,11,12,13,14 Homosexual partnerships are significantly more prone to dissolution than heterosexual marriages with the average homosexual relationship lasting only two to three years. 15,16,17 Homosexual men and women are reported to be inordinately promiscuous involving serial sex partners, even within what are loosely-termed “committed relationships.” 18,19,20,21,22 Individuals who practice a homosexual lifestyle are more likely than heterosexuals to experience mental illness,23,24,25 substance abuse,26 suicidal tendencies,27,28 and shortened life spans.29 Although some would claim that these dysfunctions are a result of societal pressures in America, the same dysfunctions exist at inordinately high levels among homosexuals in cultures were the practice is more widely accepted.30 Children reared in homosexual households are more likely to experience sexual confusion, practice homosexual behavior, and engage in sexual experimentation. 31,32,33,34,35 Adolescents and young adults who adopt the homosexual lifestyle, like their adult counterparts, are at increased risk of mental health problems, including major depression, anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, substance dependence, and especially suicidal ideation and suicide attempts.36

Conclusion

The research literature on childrearing by homosexual parents is limited. The environment in which children are reared is absolutely critical to their development. Given the current body of research, the American College of Pediatricians believes it is inappropriate, potentially hazardous to children, and dangerously irresponsible to change the age-old prohibition on homosexual parenting, whether by adoption, foster care, or by reproductive manipulation. This position is rooted in the best available science.

January 22, 2004**

 

[ladybri77]

You did not offend me…I just want to thank you…that is the first time I have heard those words from a priest, in that manner. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. I am too poor with words to express how much this means to me.

Pathia, I hope I did not offend you either. I explained things in a couple of posts back. Hope you understand.

 

[pathia]

Pathia, I hope I did not offend you either. I explained things in a couple of posts back. Hope you understand.

You have no, I am only hurt when people use hurtful language. Merely stating your beliefs and the reasons behind them isn’t a hateful thing.

The fact of the matter in my case is, there is nothing in the bible, anywhere, that applies completely to my case. There’s no way to tell. Just like with the doctors guessing at my physical sex, that’s all we can do, guess. Even priests and catholic ethicists have admitted this to me. ~I don’t know~ is the most common thing ever said to me when I ask questions.

 

[ladybri77]

You have no, I am only hurt when people use hurtful language. Merely stating your beliefs and the reasons behind them isn’t a hateful thing.

The fact of the matter in my case is, there is nothing in the bible, anywhere, that applies completely to my case. There’s no way to tell. Just like with the doctors guessing at my physical sex, that’s all we can do, guess. Even priests and catholic ethicists have admitted this to me. ~I don’t know~ is the most common thing ever said to me when I ask questions.

Pathia, did you ever get a chromosome test where they scrape the inside of your mouth and then look under the microscope to see if you have XY or XX chromosomes? I know even when you do that, sometimes the person is more comfortable being a male even if she has XX chromosomes and vice versa.

I guess the only solution to these tough questions would be to ask the Lord, He just may give you the answers you’re looking for. God Bless.

 

[pathia]

Pathia, did you ever get a chromosome test where they scrape the inside of your mouth and then look under the microscope to see if you have XY or XX chromosomes? I know even when you do that, sometimes the person is more comfortable being a male even if she has XX chromosomes and vice versa.

Yes, this has been discussed in this thread I think, but it’s a monster so you may have missed it.

My karyotype is XX/XXY/XY. I am a mosaic, I am what is known as ‘intersexed’. Hermaphrodite is considered outdated (for humans) and somewhat insulting.

That chromosome arrangement is why I get the ‘I don’t know’. Because there’s no way to tell which cell line I am mostly composed of, at least, not until I die and then the answer would me moot, most likely I would have received it once I pass on. Though I suppose if I do go to hell, that would be one of my punishments, an eternity without ever knowing what God intended my gender to be.