God cannot decide

[Bahman]

Here there is the argument:

1. God is timeless
2. God has foreknowledge
3. From (1) and (2) we can deduce that the knowledge of creation is inside the mind of God and this knowledge cannot change since God is changeless too
4. From (3) we can deduce that God cannot decide about the act of creation since either there is a creation inside foreknowledge of God or there is not

 

[frizzgrig]

You seem to have run off the logic track at #3 and #4.

It is not possible to deduce from the premise that God is timeless and God has foreknowledge that the knowledge of creation is inside the mind of God, nor that God is changeless.

Your final conclusion that God can not decide about the act of creation is a bit of a non-started because creation exists, and even using your argument #3 points to God knowing all creation, not the He is somehow on the fence about the act of creation.

You simply have left too many holes in the foundational premises you use and then are trying to jump to a conclusion not connected with the premises stated.

You might better try arguing (but I admit this leads to a different conclusion):

1. Creation exists because we are all here.
2. God exists outside of time and so is timeless
3. God, being outside of time has a perspective view of the entirety of time and so has knowledge of all things that will happen in time
4. God in His infinite being contains all perfections and so is changeless. (Nothing can be added to God to make Him more perfect.)
5. From 1, 2,and 3 we can conclude God has complete and total knowledge of all of creation.
6. From 4 we can proceed to: God is the creator for who else has total and complete knowledge of something beside it’s creator
7. From 1, 2, & 3 we can conclude: Since nothing can be added to God to increase His perfections, all of creation must exist within the being of God. (Creation is held in His being)

 

[petra22]

You seem to have run off the logic track at #3 and #4.

It is not possible to deduce from the premise that God is timeless and God has foreknowledge that the knowledge of creation is inside the mind of God, nor that God is changeless.

Your final conclusion that God can not decide about the act of creation is a bit of a non-started because creation exists, and even using your argument #3 points to God knowing all creation, not the He is somehow on the fence about the act of creation.

You simply have left too many holes in the foundational premises you use and then are trying to jump to a conclusion not connected with the premises stated.

You might better try arguing (but I admit this leads to a different conclusion):

1. Creation exists because we are all here.
2. God exists outside of time and so is timeless
3. God, being outside of time has a perspective view of the entirety of time and so has knowledge of all things that will happen in time
4. God in His infinite being contains all perfections and so is changeless. (Nothing can be added to God to make Him more perfect.)
5. From 1, 2,and 3 we can conclude God has complete and total knowledge of all of creation.
6. From 4 we can proceed to: God is the creator for who else has total and complete knowledge of something beside it’s creator
7. From 1, 2, & 3 we can conclude: Since nothing can be added to God to increase His perfections, all of creation must exist within the being of God. (Creation is held in His being)

Even though it’s so logical…I just feel joy in reading it…

 

[Bahman]

You seem to have run off the logic track at #3 and #4.

I could phrase my argument better. Please see the following:

1. God is changeless
2. Creation exist
3. God has foreknowledge
4. From (2) and (3) we can deduce that God has foreknowledge of creation
5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that the foreknowledge of God cannot change
6. From (5) we can deduce that God cannot decide about the act of creation because his foreknowledge cannot change

It is not possible to deduce from the premise that God is timeless and God has foreknowledge that the knowledge of creation is inside the mind of God, nor that God is changeless.

Please see the first comment.

Your final conclusion that God can not decide about the act of creation is a bit of a non-started because creation exists, and even using your argument #3 points to God knowing all creation, not the He is somehow on the fence about the act of creation.

You simply have left too many holes in the foundational premises you use and then are trying to jump to a conclusion not connected with the premises stated.

You might better try arguing (but I admit this leads to a different conclusion):

Please see the first comment.

1. Creation exists because we are all here.
2. God exists outside of time and so is timeless

I have a thread on this topic which shows that God cannot be outside of the time because there is no objective time.

1. God, being outside of time has a perspective view of the entirety of time and so has knowledge of all things that will happen in time

This is a false claim considering the previous comment but we can keep it for sake of argument.

 

[Gorgias]

God cannot decide about the act of creation

Can you rephrase this? The way you’ve worded it is unclear. What does it mean that “God cannot decide about the act of creation”?

Are you trying to say that God cannot create the universe, since doing so would ‘change’ His ‘foreknowledge’?

 

[Vico]

Here there is the argument:

1. God is timeless
2. God has foreknowledge
3. From (1) and (2) we can deduce that the knowledge of creation is inside the mind of God and this knowledge cannot change since God is changeless too
4. From (3) we can deduce that God cannot decide about the act of creation since either there is a creation inside foreknowledge of God or there is not

God wills all in His Goodness in a single act, therefore His willing of an end is not a cause of His willing the corresponding means to the end.

 

[Bahman]

Can you rephrase this? The way you’ve worded it is unclear. What does it mean that “God cannot decide about the act of creation”?

Are you trying to say that God cannot create the universe, since doing so would ‘change’ His ‘foreknowledge’?

What I am trying to say is that God cannot decide about any act which exist in his foreknowledge. God is in state of timeless which means he can only have one eternal act which has to be consistent with his foreknowledge.

 

[Bahman]

God wills all in His Goodness in a single act, therefore His willing of an end is not a cause of His willing the corresponding means to the end.

I don’t understand your comment. Could you please elaborate?

 

[davidv]

What I am trying to say is that God cannot decide about any act which exist in his foreknowledge. God is in state of timeless which means he can only have one eternal act which has to be consistent with his foreknowledge.

Yes you keep saying the things that God cannot do. But, have not shown that to be a true statement. In other words, you keep presenting illogic.

God is eternal. He does not need to decide. That is a human activity.

 

[Bahman]

Yes you keep saying the things that God cannot do. But, have not shown that to be a true statement. In other words, you keep presenting illogic.

Because the very notion of God that you have accepted is illogical.

God is eternal. He does not need to decide. That is a human activity.

So according to what you claim God does not decide when you pray something!?

 

[Wildgraywolf]

What I am trying to say is that God cannot decide about any act which exist in his foreknowledge. God is in state of timeless which means he can only have one eternal act which has to be consistent with his foreknowledge.

I don’t know… it seems to me you’re trying to logically reduce that which is inconceivable to be conceivable or you’re trying to compare in like terms those things or attributes which are incongruous. Take the word or concept of “timeless”. You use it as part of a logical construct, but can you, as a finite being, know 'timeless" as an experienced reality? Do you have a perfect understanding what it means to be “timeless”? Of course not, no one does and therefore any conclusion you come to will not be accurate.

In other words by reducing “timeless” into finite terms that are conceivable, understandable, comparable to the mind of a finite being it is no longer “timeless” and your premise collapses.

 

[Frankenfurter]

You seem to have run off the logic track at #3 and #4.

It is not possible to deduce from the premise that God is timeless and God has foreknowledge that the knowledge of creation is inside the mind of God, nor that God is changeless.

Your final conclusion that God can not decide about the act of creation is a bit of a non-started because creation exists, and even using your argument #3 points to God knowing all creation, not the He is somehow on the fence about the act of creation.

You simply have left too many holes in the foundational premises you use and then are trying to jump to a conclusion not connected with the premises stated.

You might better try arguing (but I admit this leads to a different conclusion):

1. Creation exists because we are all here.
2. God exists outside of time and so is timeless
3. God, being outside of time has a perspective view of the entirety of time and so has knowledge of all things that will happen in time
4. God in His infinite being contains all perfections and so is changeless. (Nothing can be added to God to make Him more perfect.)
5. From 1, 2,and 3 we can conclude God has complete and total knowledge of all of creation.
6. From 4 we can proceed to: God is the creator for who else has total and complete knowledge of something beside it’s creator
7. From 1, 2, & 3 we can conclude: Since nothing can be added to God to increase His perfections, all of creation must exist within the being of God. (Creation is held in His being)

Now that I can follow. Excellent post!
Thank you for that little bit of peace.

 

[davidv]

Because the very notion of God that you have accepted is illogical.

Why should I believe this to be a true statement? Because you said so? Not me. Show me why I should accept this statement as true.

So according to what you claim God does not decide when you pray something!?

No, that actually is according to your flawed representation of God. What do you think is the purpose of prayer?

 

[Vico]

I don’t understand your comment. Could you please elaborate?

You wrote that “God cannot decide about the act of creation” because that would mean change in the Changeless, so I posted that “God wills all in His Goodness in a single act, therefore His willing of an end is not a cause of His willing the corresponding means to the end.”

Since a decision is the action or process of deciding something, to decide to create is a different act than the act of creation itself. This would mean two acts, however, God wills all in His Goodness in a single act.

 

[Bahman]

Why should I believe this to be a true statement? Because you said so? Not me. Show me why I should accept this statement as true.

Apparently one argument is enough. I had many arguments but lets to stick to the current one: God cannot decide.

No, that actually is according to your flawed representation of God. What do you think is the purpose of prayer?

So in your opinion God can decide. Here there is my argument:

1. God is changeless
2. Creation exist
3. God has foreknowledge
4. From (2) and (3) we can deduce that God has foreknowledge of creation
5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that the foreknowledge of God cannot change
6. From (5) we can deduce that God cannot decide about the act of creation because his foreknowledge cannot change

 

[Bahman]

You wrote that “God cannot decide about the act of creation” because that would mean change in the Changeless, so I posted that “God wills all in His Goodness in a single act, therefore His willing of an end is not a cause of His willing the corresponding means to the end.”

Since a decision is the action or process of deciding something, to decide to create is a different act than the act of creation itself. This would mean two acts, however, God wills all in His Goodness in a single act.

If decision for creation is one act and the act creation is the second act followed by the act deciding then we have to accept that God dwell in temporal rather than eternal.

 

[Vico]

If decision for creation is one act and the act creation is the second act followed by the act deciding then we have to accept that God dwell in temporal rather than eternal.

There are not two acts per my post: “God wills all in His Goodness in a single act, therefore His willing of an end is not a cause of His willing the corresponding means to the end.”"

 

[davidv]

Apparently one argument is enough. I had many arguments but lets to stick to the current one: God cannot decide.

That is not an argument. It is an unsupported statement.

So in your opinion God can decide. Here there is my argument:

1. God is changeless
2. Creation exist
3. God has foreknowledge
4. From (2) and (3) we can deduce that God has foreknowledge of creation
5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that the foreknowledge of God cannot change
6. From (5) we can deduce that God cannot decide about the act of creation because his foreknowledge cannot change

I disagree with 3. It decides God’s knowledge wrongly. God has eternal knowledge. It is neither foreknowledge nor after-knowledge.

 

[Bahman]

That is not an argument. It is an unsupported statement.

I disagree with 3. It decides God’s knowledge wrongly. God has eternal knowledge. It is neither foreknowledge nor after-knowledge.

By foreknowledge I meant that God has knowledge of future. What do you mean with eternal knowledge? Can you please read the argument again given the definition of foreknowledge.

 

[davidv]

By foreknowledge I meant that God has knowledge of future. What do you mean with eternal knowledge?

Knowledge that has always existed. It is not added to, nor subtracted from.

Can you please read the argument again given the definition of foreknowledge.

My response does not change. God has no foreknowledge. God does not have a past nor a future, only an eternal now. By stating He has foreknowledge your are arbitrarily limiting God to temporal existence. It not appropriate to limit Him this way.