God cannot sustain the creation because he cannot know what is the current time

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Bahman

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Here there is the argument
  1. God needs to know the state of creation at now to sustain the creation
  2. Current now is subject to change
  3. God is changeless
  4. From (2) and (3) we can deduce that God cannot know the current time since the knowledge of current time is subject to change
  5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that God cannot sustain the creation
 
God cannot sustain HIS creation? And what is “time?” Man made time?
 
To be eternal, as God is, means that it is always NOW for him. One, great, eternal NOW, present before him all at once. He knows the state of Creation, at any point in (or outside) of time, precisely because it is NOW and present to him.

Your argument breaks between points 3 and 4. It does not follow that because creation changes God would have to be changeable to support it.
 
What is “current time” to someone outside time? If I have a copy of Star Wars on my table, what time is it to Luke? It’s all times to “all Lukes”. “Each Luke” just perceives his own time.

I don’t need to know what time it is for Luke (and in fact, it is each time to Luke at that point in time) to sustain Luke. I simply sustain all Lukes (by not breaking the DVD).

For me, it’s 8:16. In a minute it will be 8:17 for future me. God would see both at the same time, and would know that for me at 8:16 it’s me at 8:16 and for me at 8:17 it’s 8:17.
 
Bahman said:
Here there is the argument
  1. God needs to know the state of creation at now to sustain the creation
  2. Current now is subject to change
  3. God is changeless
  4. From (2) and (3) we can deduce that God cannot know the current time since the knowledge of current time is subject to change
  5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that God cannot sustain the creation
Click to expand...
  1. So how exactly does God sustain creation? I think you need to let the rest of us in on the secret formula he revealed to you before we can agree or disagree.
  2. What does the current now have to do with creation?
  3. So how does this affect creation?
  4. You seem to keep coming up with a lot of these off the wall posts. I think from this point forward you need to change your remarks to “I can deduce” instead of “we can deduce” cause I have no clue where you are going with this.
  5. What happened to 5? I think 5 holds the secret formula that proves God sustained creation therefore 6 is irrelevant. 😃
 
It all breaks down fro me with the first 2 words:
God cannot.

Of course He can.
He’s God.
Eternal,
Omnipotent.
 
Bahman said:
Here there is the argument
  1. God needs to know the state of creation at now to sustain the creation
  2. Current now is subject to change
  3. God is changeless
  4. From (2) and (3) we can deduce that God cannot know the current time since the knowledge of current time is subject to change
  5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that God cannot sustain the creation
Click to expand...
Yes, God is changeless, but that doesn’t mean he’s not aware of His creation in its own timeline.

The parable of Matthew 21 shows God’s awareness of and changing response to his creation.
“There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard sand put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.”

Hebrews 1:3 “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.”
God is sustaining our world by His Son.
 
Jesus did pretty well with the concepts of past present and future, and he is God in Trinity, therefore God ‘knows’ time! Oh yeah, and he’s GOD!
 
Bahman said:
Here there is the argument
  1. God needs to know the state of creation at now to sustain the creation
  2. Current now is subject to change
  3. God is changeless
  4. From (2) and (3) we can deduce that God cannot know the current time since the knowledge of current time is subject to change
  5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that God cannot sustain the creation
Click to expand...
This reasoning is contradicted by the most element fact that creation is sustained. Ie. We exist. Therefore, if God exists then he is sustaining creation.

And also God wouldn’t technically need to know what time it is to do it. Since knowing what time it is doesn’t cause anything to happen.

God sustaining creation would not be based on what time it is or even time itself. Since God is timeless and he created time.

Your argument uses reasoning from arguments for a vs b theory of time. Ie. Does God know what time it is? However, the argument some proponents of a theory argues that if God is in time in relation to his creation then he would have tensed knowledge because he is all knowing. He would for instance know what time it is. However, for b theorists they could get out of this by saying God sees every moment of time at once. At any rate your question shows a lack of understanding of both positions. Since neither group claims that God doesn’t know what time it is. It seems your position holds a view that neither group claims, that God is in time and doesn’t know what time it is.
 
Bahman, you have started many threads about what God cannot be or cannot do. Perhaps there is one central question or proposition that covers them all. I hope you get to the bottom of this someday. In the mean time, keep them coming!
 
I always get humor out of posts like this. You assume you know more than you do about the nature of time, change, creation, and God’s relationship with all of this to even formulate this argument.

If the goal is just to have a thought experiment and you know that this experience is profoundly limited by your reason and intellect then I can see the point in it. But if you think you are going to come to some kind of actual insight into God this way I think you greatly overestimate your own knowledge and the accumulated knowledge of humanity.
 
God’s observation of time and his creations does not add or detract from Him.

That is the conclusion I have reached from points 1,2 and 3.
 
If there is a God, it’s a sure bet He ‘knows’ everything about His creation.

Someone above summed it up well -

A most illogical position to hold in a discussion about God would include ‘He cannot’ (referencing God).

Unless you are defending a double negative, say - God cannot dislike his creation.

That I would find to be true, though easier said as - God only likes (loves) his creation.
 
God knows all about time. He even talks about time.

Is anything too hard for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, in the spring, and Sarah shall have a son." (Genesis 18:14)

Peter the Pope tells us about God’s knowledge of time.

But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Peter 3:8)

All time is “now” to God.

Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)

We should keep “Now” in mind.

Behold, now is the acceptable time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Corinthians 6:2)

Hodie si vocem eius audieritis…
Today if you hear his voice…

-Tim-
 
Wesrock said:
To be eternal, as God is, means that it is always NOW for him. One, great, eternal NOW, present before him all at once. He knows the state of Creation, at any point in (or outside) of time, precisely because it is NOW and present to him.

Your argument breaks between points 3 and 4. It does not follow that because creation changes God would have to be changeable to support it.
Click to expand...
It does follow. The knowledge of a changeable thing needs changes. This can be illustrated in the following way: Consider all states of creation which God knows. Not all states of creation are actual. It is only the state of creation at current time which is actual. This means that we need a tag in this state to distinguish the state in current time from others. The position of this tag changes by time meaning that the knowledge of current state requires changes.
 
TomFromMD said:
What is “current time” to someone outside time? If I have a copy of Star Wars on my table, what time is it to Luke? It’s all times to “all Lukes”. “Each Luke” just perceives his own time.

I don’t need to know what time it is for Luke (and in fact, it is each time to Luke at that point in time) to sustain Luke. I simply sustain all Lukes (by not breaking the DVD).

For me, it’s 8:16. In a minute it will be 8:17 for future me. God would see both at the same time, and would know that for me at 8:16 it’s me at 8:16 and for me at 8:17 it’s 8:17.
Click to expand...
You are missing a point here. Only the state of creation at current time is actual which means that God must only sustain the state of creation at current time. God can sustain all state of creation with the price that all states are actual and this is not something that we observe.
 
MT1926 said:
  1. So how exactly does God sustain creation? I think you need to let the rest of us in on the secret formula he revealed to you before we can agree or disagree.
Click to expand...
In the picture which is provided, the state of creation is actual only at current time. God knows the rest of states of creation, but only needs to sustain the state of creation at current time which is subject to change.
MT1926 said:
  1. What does the current now have to do with creation?
Click to expand...
Only the state of creation at current now is actual.
MT1926 said:
  1. So how does this affect creation?
Click to expand...
Only the state of creation at current now is actual and subjected to change.
MT1926 said:
  1. You seem to keep coming up with a lot of these off the wall posts. I think from this point forward you need to change your remarks to “I can deduce” instead of “we can deduce” cause I have no clue where you are going with this.
Click to expand...
Sure.
MT1926 said:
  1. What happened to 5? I think 5 holds the secret formula that proves God sustained creation therefore 6 is irrelevant. 😃
Click to expand...
😃
 
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