God doesn't punish sins in this life?

[CyberSaint]

I have been a Catholic for 5 years this Easter, so there are many many things I have yet to learn.

But tonight, my priest said that God will not punish our sins in this life.

I do not think this is true, for there are many Scriptural examples where he does.

I could use some illumination.

Please include citations if feasible so I can look things up for myself.

 

[CyberSaint]

Can anyone clarify my confusion on this?

 

[buffalo]

from the Catechism:

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."85

**1863 **Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. “Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness.”

While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call “light”: if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.

**1828 **The practice of the moral life animated by charity gives to the Christian the spiritual freedom of the children of God. He no longer stands before God as a slave, in servile fear, or as a mercenary looking for wages, but as a son responding to the love of him who “first loved us”:

If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I have problems with this concept of a God who punishes.

Sin of its very nature is punishing - in other words the punishment only comes from the sin and from the sin itself. God does not directly punish of Himself from outside sin because of sin.

Quoting from the CC in the previous post:

These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.

Our God is a God of Love and of Mercy…and I can either humbly accept that gratefully and with praise…or reject it and choose sin and the punishment that is the very nature of sin.
God is not vengeaful…He is faithfully Loving,
Such is the boundless extent of our Faithful Always Loving and Mericiful God, He withholds His Mercy from no person and no matter how terrible the sin, even if they repent only at the moment of death. How wondrous is our God!
Understanding, Merciful and yes Just “that you be without reproach when you judge, oh see a sinner was I conceived”(Divine Office) in other words, God’s Mercy exists precisely because He is a Just God and insights that we are indeed all ‘broken vessels’ to quote NCJohn from another thread…we are born into this world with a distinct inclination towards sin, courtesy of original sin. God knows this. God knows that because of our nature sin is not an easy matter. To sin I need to know that I am offending God in some way and to choose it…hence choosing the punishiment which is the nature of sin. One cannot sin without knowing that one sins:
Sin is to knowingly and willingly consent to something which I believe is sinful.

I hope that may help CyberSaint…and blessings on your seekings…

Barb
PS Congratulations on your fifth anniversary as Catholic…you have already made great advancement in holiness for you come across as very humble and humility is the foundation of all the virtues. As St. Teresa of Avila, our great mystic and theologian wrote, “Humility, it wins The King (Jesus) every time”

 

[buffalo]

God is all loving and perfectly just. He has to judge perfectly.

The justice dimension is not taught very well anymore.

 

[Alison]

Remember God loves but it has nothing to do with feelings. Love in the Christian context is NOT a feeling. The love we are speaking of is of one who wants the best for us. God loves us by the very fact that he wants the best for us. And yes, it may at times hurt but think of it this way: Let’s say you were heavily scarred and one of your parents was applying an annointment on you that stings you evertime it is applied. Because it hurts, you scream and shout in pain. You think your parent doesn’t love you but the annointment your parent applies is for your healing,.Your parent is heavily pained to see you scream and shout as he applies the annointment but it is because he wants you to heal that he applies the annointment on you. Your parent loves you by the very fact that he is anointing you. He wants the best for you. If love was a feeling and one did not have to experience pain we would be like a patient with scars that no one anoints. If your parent did not love you, your parent would not anoint you. God is the same. He wants the best for you, and yes it will include pain.
Let us not forget that Christ did NOT come off the Cross.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

buffalo:

God is all loving and perfectly just. He has to judge perfectly.

The justice dimension is not taught very well anymore.

And because God is indeed Just, He is Infinitely Merciful. He knows we come into this world marked by original sin and after all we had nothing to do directly with the sin of our first parents and yet we are adversely affected by it and from birth…we are inclined, we have a natural leaning towards sin and the result of Original Sin and not our doing. Hence virtue or avoiding sin is not our natural state but difficult.

God knows all this and being Just He can be nothing but Merciful to us. His Mercy flows from His Justice "That you be without reproach when you judge, oh see a sinner was I conceived " (Divine Office Psalm)

Hence when we and The Church speak of God’s Mercy we are highlighting His Justice.:yup:

Barb

 

[Mijoy2]

BarbaraTherese:

I have problems with this concept of a God who punishes.

Sin of its very nature is punishing - in other words the punishment only comes from the sin and from the sin itself. God does not directly punish of Himself from outside sin because of sin.

Quoting from the CC in the previous post:

Our God is a God of Love and of Mercy…and I can either humbly accept that gratefully and with praise…or reject it and choose sin and the punishment that is the very nature of sin.
God is not vengeaful…He is faithfully Loving,
Such is the boundless extent of our Faithful Always Loving and Mericiful God, He withholds His Mercy from no person and no matter how terrible the sin, even if they repent only at the moment of death. How wondrous is our God!
Understanding, Merciful and yes Just “that you be without reproach when you judge, oh see a sinner was I conceived”(Divine Office) in other words, God’s Mercy exists precisely because He is a Just God and insights that we are indeed all ‘broken vessels’ to quote NCJohn from another thread…we are born into this world with a distinct inclination towards sin, courtesy of original sin. God knows this. God knows that because of our nature sin is not an easy matter. To sin I need to know that I am offending God in some way and to choose it…hence choosing the punishiment which is the nature of sin. One cannot sin without knowing that one sins:
Sin is to knowingly and willingly consent to something which I believe is sinful.

Wonderfully said.

Sin is self-punishing in so many ways:
financial consequences,
health consequences,
hurting those you love consequences,
hurting yourself consequences.
A guilty conscience being the most dreadful punishment.

The obvious consequence of sin helps me to better understand righteousness and it’s rewards.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Indeed, sin is it’s own punishment–the catechism is very eloquent on this point.

Regarding the Justice of God, we must remember (as BarbaraTherese seems to be urging us to do) that God’s Mercy is indistinguishable from God’s Justice–moreover, we do well to remember St. James when he writes that perfect Mercy triumphs over Justice. This is because God’s Mercy is the secret of God’s Justice.

When we sin, we condemn ourselves. God is waiting for us to return to him. If it seems that God chastises us (either in this world or the next) it is not because God is actually punishing us, but because he is drawing us, by grace, out of our sinfulness, and because our sinfulness is so precious to us, this process of sanctification, the process of abandoning sin and turning to God, can be painful. It is not because God wills this pain on us however, but because God is not willing for us to have anything in our lives that is separate from his own love and majesty.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[CyberSaint]

I think some clarification needs to be added. By “punishment,” is the wrath of God being referenced, or is it his “disciplining” to which St. Paul refers in one of his epistles? I am referring to the first usage: a punitive, retributive action on God’s part toward recalcitrant sinners.

Does God lower the boom on some people, like he did several times in the OT, or does he mrely chastise us nowadays with the goal of getting us to repent?

I am particulary interested in learning what specific documents speak to this. The CC doesn’t say God unleashes punitive wrath on people in this age, nor does it say he doesn’t. Does he, or doesn’t he? The CC says sin has its own punishment, and God will let the consequences fall where they may at times, but it doesn’t speak specifically to the punishments of God. Has the Church written anything that says yeah or nay to this topic?

 

[BarbaraTherese]

CyberSaint:

I think some clarification needs to be added. By “punishment,” is the wrath of God being referenced, or is it his “disciplining” to which St. Paul refers in one of his epistles? I am referring to the first usage: a punitive, retributive action on God’s part toward recalcitrant sinners.

Does God lower the boom on some people, like he did several times in the OT, or does he mrely chastise us nowadays with the goal of getting us to repent?

I am particulary interested in learning what specific documents speak to this. The CC doesn’t say God unleashes punitive wrath on people in this age, nor does it say he doesn’t. Does he, or doesn’t he? The CC says sin has its own punishment, and God will let the consequences fall where they may at times, but it doesn’t speak specifically to the punishments of God. Has the Church written anything that says yeah or nay to this topic?

Hi there CyberSaint…I am so far from a scripture scholar or theologian…hence an apologist…it just aint funny, but I’ll take a stab at your Post and perhaps get the ball rolling for some more enlightened replies:

In the Old Testament, the Israelites were continually falling back into their old ways or even pagan ways and God sent them prophets to warn them that if they did not repent and get their act straight, God was going to let something dreadful happen to them. Often the prophets were murdered for their trouble, and hence God let disaster fall the people.

As I see it God does not directly of Himself send punishment…how can He and still be a God of Loving Mercy…however, as I see it from this worn and wonky armchair, he may allow disaster in some way to befall not as an actual direct punishment for whatever (and as I see things He did not directly do this in the OT either) but as a warning of the shortness and insecurity of life and ‘stay awake, for you know not the hour’.
With the disasters of massive proportion we have seen in our times recently, no one can state, for it is a contradiction for one, that God has directly sent whatever as a punishment. For a start, this is theologically unsound in the face of a God of Mercy; however, if in the face of a natural disaster I, or a group of people, whatever, are reminded of the shortness and insecurity of life…well and good, and perhaps God has let the disaster happen for this reason. But no person can say with assuredness that He has permitted the disaster specifically for that reason.

Be all that as it may prior to the Egyptian Exodus of the people, God the OT tells us amidst the plagues sent an angel to kill the first born of the Egyptians…but as I see it not to punish them, but to reveal His Power over them. Sighting God’s Great Power over him, the Egyptian pharoe fears and hence does let the people go. Until the first born are smote by an angel, pharoe is not at all impressed with the various plagues and persists in his stubborness and self will…God warned him with plagues, but he would not listen. That’s how I see that era in the history of the Israelites journey of Faith.

In the case of modern disaster, we see too the Great Power of God through nature in the face of which we are completley helpless.

Pick away the holes in the above!

Barb
PS Apologies for ‘pharoe’ - no idea how to spell it!

 

[pbaylis]

CyberSaint:

Can anyone clarify my confusion on this?

Have you read the Dialog of St Catherine of Siena? This is the second time I’ve quoted from that today. Probably will a lot more too. It’s such a great resource for anyone truly seeking the path of holiness.

Quoting God:
"Do you not know, dear daughter, that all the sufferings which the soul endures, or can endure, in this life are insufficient to punish one smallest fault, because the offence being done to Me, Who am the Infinite Good, calls for an infinite satisfaction? However, I wish that you should know that not all the pains that are given to men in this life are given as punishments, but as corrections, in order to chastise a son when he offends; though it is true that both the guilt and the penalty can be expiated by the desire of the soul … "

This clearly states that God DOES punish men’s sins in this lifetime, though not always a punishment as much as a chastisement.

For a downloadable copy of the Dialog of St Catherine of Siena, visit ccel.org.

 

[pbaylis]

I think that’s a bit of a cop-out. It depends what the sin is. Some sins are quite gratifying. It is the going without sin that can be more immediately painful I think. A couple examples: You friend tells you about the vast amounts of money he’s making through his investment in intnernet porn sites. Your other friend moves from one casual sexual encounter to another, no strings attached. Hurting yourself and hurting others aren’t consequences that really matter to people “enjoying” the sinful life. And when you’re in that sin rut, your conscience gets dulled, so that doesn’t really work either.

Mijoy2:

Wonderfully said.

Sin is self-punishing in so many ways:
financial consequences,
health consequences,
hurting those you love consequences,
hurting yourself consequences.
A guilty conscience being the most dreadful punishment.

The obvious consequence of sin helps me to better understand righteousness and it’s rewards.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

pbaylis:

I think that’s a bit of a cop-out. It depends what the sin is. Some sins are quite gratifying. It is the going without sin that can be more immediately painful I think.

I think you may be misunderstanding when it’s written that sin is its own punishment. Sin can be incredibly gratifying. And weaning ourselves off of sin can be incredibly painful. The nature of sin, though, in and of itself–simply due to the way the universe was made, and due to the nature of the Living God–is death. Because what sin is, in itself, is separation from God. The separation is not a consequence of sin. The separation is of the nature of sin itself.

Because to sin means (as Origen would write) to put oneself outside the recollection of God. It is to deify oneself above God. This deification, however, is purely illusory. God’s position in the universe is not challenged by our vaunting sinful hubris. But through sin, we focus on ourselves, on our empty ego, rather than on who we really are. And who we really are, according to the church, is found in God. We are what God knows us to be. And because of the love of Christ, our humanity has been joined to God’s Divinity in such a way that what we are, what we truly are, is discovered to be Christ.

When we sin, we deny what we are. We cling to a sinful nature. But because sin has no part in God, and because God is the source of all life and all being, it should come as no surprise that sin puts us on the path of destruction, the path of not-life, the path of not-being, because the act of sin is an act of identification–I identify with the sin through my act. I therefore take on the quality of sin–which quality is death–not-life, not-being, not-God. I therefore deface the image of God in me. I destroy life in me. I seek to undo my very being when I sin. Because sin has no part in God from whom all being comes.

This is what is meant by sin is its own punishment. God does not need to do anything for us to reap in our very souls the fruit of death. Sinning may be fun. It may be enjoyable. But that does not mean that it has no lasting spiritual consequence or that its nature is fun or enjoyable. What is passing discomfort, what is physical pain, what are even the purifying fires of purgatory (which is not punishment, but purification) compared to the active will to remove from oneself the ground of one’s very life, compared to the relentless tearing away, by oneself through sin, at the fabric of one’s being? What more consequence, what more punishment do you want?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[Mijoy2]

Deo Volente:

Grace & Peace!

I think you may be misunderstanding when it’s written that sin is its own punishment. Sin can be incredibly gratifying. And weaning ourselves off of sin can be incredibly painful. The nature of sin, though, in and of itself–simply due to the way the universe was made, and due to the nature of the Living God–is death. Because what sin is, in itself, is separation from God. The separation is not a consequence of sin. The separation is of the nature of sin itself.

Because to sin means (as Origen would write) to put oneself outside the recollection of God. It is to deify oneself above God. This deification, however, is purely illusory. God’s position in the universe is not challenged by our vaunting sinful hubris. But through sin, we focus on ourselves, on our empty ego, rather than on who we really are. And who we really are, according to the church, is found in God. We are what God knows us to be. And because of the love of Christ, our humanity has been joined to God’s Divinity in such a way that what we are, what we truly are, is discovered to be Christ.

When we sin, we deny what we are. We cling to a sinful nature. But because sin has no part in God, and because God is the source of all life and all being, it should come as no surprise that sin puts us on the path of destruction, the path of not-life, the path of not-being, because the act of sin is an act of identification–I identify with the sin through my act. I therefore take on the quality of sin–which quality is death–not-life, not-being, not-God. I therefore deface the image of God in me. I destroy life in me. I seek to undo my very being when I sin. Because sin has no part in God from whom all being comes.

This is what is meant by sin is its own punishment. God does not need to do anything for us to reap in our very souls the fruit of death. Sinning may be fun. It may be enjoyable. But that does not mean that it has no lasting spiritual consequence or that its nature is fun or enjoyable. What is passing discomfort, what is physical pain, what are even the purifying fires of purgatory (which is not punishment, but purification) compared to the active will to remove from oneself the ground of one’s very life, compared to the relentless tearing away, by oneself through sin, at the fabric of one’s being? What more consequence, what more punishment do you want?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

Thank you, you responded better then I could have. I didn’t mean to imply (in my post) that sin was never gratifying. It can be immensely gratifying, of course. What I did wish to convey is that the gratification, if known to be wrong, may haunt you much like Edgar Allen Poes’ Tell Tale Heart.

This is strictly my opinion. I believe it is how one responds (repentance) to the beating heart that one is ultimately judged.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Mijoy2:

Thank you, you responded better then I could have. I didn’t mean to imply (in my post) that sin was never gratifying. It can be immensely gratifying, of course. What I did wish to convey is that the gratification, if known to be wrong, may haunt you much like Edgar Allen Poes’ Tell Tale Heart.

This is strictly my opinion. I believe it is how one responds (repentance) to the beating heart that one is ultimately judged.

Hi Mijoy…sin, I think to be sin, must be a conscious turning away from God in some way…many do not know God, hence can they be in sin. The thing about the gratification of sin is that the gratification never lasts…hence the person is driven to find something that will gratify…the person is involved in a gratification quest that always proves empty or unfulfilling other than on a temporary basis. Sin is spiritual psychosis…disconnected from the reality of God in some way…and perhaps totally.
God exists…hence is reality…to deny this in anyway is in fact to be disconnected from reality…or psychotic

From this worn and tired, wonky armchair

Barb

 

[Mijoy2]

BarbaraTherese:

Hi Mijoy…sin, I think to be sin, must be a conscious turning away from God in some way…many do not know God, hence can they be in sin. The thing about the gratification of sin is that the gratification never lasts…hence the person is driven to find something that will gratify…the person is involved in a gratification quest that always proves empty or unfulfilling other than on a temporary basis. Sin is spiritual psychosis…disconnected from the reality of God in some way…and perhaps totally.
God exists…hence is reality…to deny this in anyway is in fact to be disconnected from reality…or psychotic

From this worn and tired, wonky armchair

Barb

Yes Barb,

Our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee.

 

[mspencer]

This is to return to the original post. Thee is something in popular American religious culture that is adamantly opposed to the idea that God punishes sins in this life. Catholics have picked this up too.However, I see just the opposite in the Bible also. For example in Mat 21:33 etc Jesus provided a parable saying that those who crucified him would be punished. The nation then was ruined in fact in the year 70… I would think that the priest who said this was just providing an opinion that he hadn’t thought carefully about, and personally I find revelation a more authoritative statement of the reality of the situation. Offhand too I recall the passage in the sermon on the mount where Jesus says that those who build their house on sand will suffer a great ruin–he was speaking of the inner life of the soul then, and the course of a person’s life who does not build his life properly. Of course there are many passages in the Old Testament about punishment in this life, and the prophets saw the fall of the two kingdoms of the Jews and the Exile punishment for their sins. Personally I like happy thoughts better like most people, yet all the same the Bible is teaching such things for our own good.
It is true on the other, I think, that God allows sinners some happiness in this life, and I recall Jesus saying one time that this is their reward, in this life. I can’t recall the place in the Gospel where he says this. Christians sometimes wonder why evil-doers may seem to prosper in this life, a thought echoes by the Bible itself. But on the other hand, God does punish people in this life for their sins.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting MSpencer:

This is to return to the original post. Thee is something in popular American religious culture that is adamantly opposed to the idea that God punishes sins in this life. Catholics have picked this up too.However, I see just the opposite in the Bible also. For example in Mat 21:33 etc Jesus provided a parable saying that those who crucified him would be punished. The nation then was ruined in fact in the year 70… I would think that the priest who said this was just providing an opinion that he hadn’t thought carefully about, and personally I find revelation a more authoritative statement of the reality of the situation.

Offhand too I recall the passage in the sermon on the mount where Jesus says that those who build their house on sand will suffer a great ruin–he was speaking of the inner life of the soul then, and the course of a person’s life who does not build his life properly.
Of course there are many passages in the Old Testament about punishment in this life, and the prophets saw the fall of the two kingdoms of the Jews and the Exile punishment for their sins.

Personally I like happy thoughts better like most people, yet all the same the Bible is teaching such things for our own good.
It is true on the other, I think, that God allows sinners some happiness in this life,** and I recall Jesus saying one time that this is their reward, in this life. I can’t recall the place in the Gospel where he says this**. Christians sometimes wonder why evil-doers may seem to prosper in this life, a thought echoes by the Bible itself. But on the other hand, **God does punish people in this life for their sins./**QUOTE]

Our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee.

First, to quote MiJoy:
Absolutely! In God there is peace and joy, fulfillment and adventure for I think the spiritual life is the greatest adventure a human being has the priviledge to emabark upon.
Whereas the lost in sin and the crazy pursuit of pleasure and gratification are basically very unhappy people if one really gets to know them. In fact, and I come across many in the area I live, I feel tremendously sad for them and pity them and am compassionate on their unhappiness.

Hi there MSpencer!
I am no Scripture Scholar but I am wondering if ‘punishment’ and ‘correction’ are interchangeable in The Bible. For the point remains if God is a God of Loving Mercy and He is…how then can he deliberately punish? It is a clear contradiction. For if He punishes He is a vengeaful God. In fact He is revengeaful and revenge we are told is sinful. Hence a punishing God makes no sense to me.
However God can and does permit a calamity or negative event to fall as a means of calling a person or group back to Him. It is an act of love, desiring to call sinners back to Him. Time and again in the Old Testament God sends prophets to call the people back to Him and letting them know that if they do not something calamitous will fall upon them. Mostly the prophets were murdered by the people for their trouble…and hence the dreadful event they were warned off came about. And at this point, having experienced the Power of God, returned to him in obedience. These were acts of love, not punishmnet. Acts of love because if they remained (we remain) in our sinfulness Hell is the result brought about by mortal sin itself. Seems God asking us to love Him does not always work…but send a negative event and it is then often that people turn to God.

Again from this tired and worn, wonky armchair!

The passage to which you refer in the New Testament is not connected with sinners getting their reward here…but rather the virtuous who like to be seen as virtuous. Jesus states they have their reward already.

Barb in Bethany smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_4_101.gif

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting Alison:

Remember God loves but it has nothing to do with feelings. Love in the Christian context is NOT a feeling.

Hi there Alison…Love can be a feeling, but not necessarily so. It does remain of far more importance that Love resides in our will and does not necessarily have to be felt…but it can reside in our Will and be felt as well.

The love we are speaking of is of one who wants the best for us. God loves us by the very fact that he wants the best for us. And yes, it may at times hurt but think of it this way: Let’s say you were heavily scarred and one of your parents was applying an annointment on you that stings you evertime it is applied. Because it hurts, you scream and shout in pain. You think your parent doesn’t love you but the annointment your parent applies is for your healing,.Your parent is heavily pained to see you scream and shout as he applies the annointment but it is because he wants you to heal that he applies the annointment on you. Your parent loves you by the very fact that he is anointing you. He wants the best for you

The above is a good illustration I thought.

. If love was a feeling and one did not have to experience pain we would be like a patient with scars that no one anoints. If your parent did not love you, your parent would not anoint you. God is the same. He wants the best for you, and yes it will include pain.
Let us not forget that Christ did NOT come off the Cross

We can forget that The Cross is our symbol and for good reason “we make up in our own bodies what was lacking in the sufferings of Christ” (St. Paul). In other words we are called to complete the Passion of The Lord.

Barb in Bethany smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_4_101.gif