God's supposed attributes contradicts our beliefs

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Here is a list of God’s supposed attributes as approved by the Church.

Transcendent = incomprehensible, existing outside of space and time, unknowable and unsearchable by reasoning, impossible to understand or experience

Immutable = Immutable objects are simply objects whose state cannot change

Impassible = does not experience pain or pleasure from the actions of another being

Incorporeal = having no physical body or being without physical substance

Infinite = without any limits, being endless, immeasurable

Omnipotent = the power to effect whatever is not intrinsically impossible

Omnipresent = the power of being present everywhere at the same time

Omniscient = the capacity to know everything that there is to know

How can you honestly believe in such a god? Careful analysis of these attributes make prayer worthless, making god happy, or sad, or angry, impossible, , etc. Don’t dream up a bunch of special cases to show that God can have these attributes but supposedly suspend them to answer our prayers, get angry at our actions, and so on. Either he has them or he doesn’t have them. If he does then he is a very out of touch god. If he doesn’t, then why does the church insist he does?
 
To be impassible means he cannot have passions that start or end. He is not now mad or now sad. However, the analogous, charitable love towards Being as such is not a passion. It does not start or end. It’s just what he is. Therefore we can say that God is love, that he does “care” that things are directed towards certain ends, that he has a disposition against evil (lack of goodness). Again, this is just his state of being, not human emotions as we see it.

But yes, we have a God who loves all being, for being is itself an objective good. We have a God who holds all our ends, who holds us in existence, who provides all things with the power to change while not moving us about like puppets. This is a very active God who is close to us, not distant. When I first delved into Thomism and these definitions, I did have the uneasy feeling you have of a distant God. But the more I’ve studied it the more I’ve come to see this God is full of love and near, not distant and unknowable.

I do think your definition of transcendant is wrong, though. That doesn’t accurately describe a position of the Catholic Church or Thomism that I know of.

Anyway, we are designed in such a way that our final end and ultimate fulfillment is in knowing God. That completes us, is part of what we are. God, desiring that we more fully instantiate our being, does see this pursuit as good.

You are right, though. Worship and prayer is not for God. It’s not something he needs or desires for himself. It’s for us.
 
laocmo said:
Here is a list of God’s supposed attributes as approved by the Church.

Transcendent = incomprehensible, existing outside of space and time, unknowable and unsearchable by reasoning, impossible to understand or experience

Immutable = Immutable objects are simply objects whose state cannot change

Impassible = does not experience pain or pleasure from the actions of another being

Incorporeal = having no physical body or being without physical substance

Infinite = without any limits, being endless, immeasurable

Omnipotent = the power to effect whatever is not intrinsically impossible

Omnipresent = the power of being present everywhere at the same time

Omniscient = the capacity to know everything that there is to know

How can you honestly believe in such a god? Careful analysis of these attributes make prayer worthless, making god happy, or sad, or angry, impossible, , etc. Don’t dream up a bunch of special cases to show that God can have these attributes but supposedly suspend them to answer our prayers, get angry at our actions, and so on. Either he has them or he doesn’t have them. If he does then he is a very out of touch god. If he doesn’t, then why does the church insist he does?
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Why are you using your own limitations to limit God?

God cannot suspend any of these attributes and remain God. If he’s short in any of these, then he cannot be God. He does not suspend his impassability, his immutability, his omniscience, his anything. He is always that.

The problem is with us, not with God.

That he answers prayer is not against his immutability.

That he punishes sinners is not against his impassability.

And God out of touch?

Look at a crucifix and say that again.
 
You do not have or read the catechism? Too bad. For starters, YouTube is not a catechism. For the actual beliefs of the Catholic Church, here it is online, or I can mail you a copy.
 
laocmo said:
Here is a list of God’s supposed attributes as approved by the Church.

Transcendent = incomprehensible, existing outside of space and time, unknowable and unsearchable by reasoning, impossible to understand or experience

Immutable = Immutable objects are simply objects whose state cannot change

Impassible = does not experience pain or pleasure from the actions of another being

Incorporeal = having no physical body or being without physical substance

Infinite = without any limits, being endless, immeasurable

Omnipotent = the power to effect whatever is not intrinsically impossible

Omnipresent = the power of being present everywhere at the same time

Omniscient = the capacity to know everything that there is to know

How can you honestly believe in such a god?
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Because God must exist. This is a matter of philosophical certitude. If God must exist, then these are his attributes. It’s not a question of how I can believe in such a God, it’s a matter of what God must necessarily be.
Careful analysis of these attributes make prayer worthless
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If the purpose of prayer was to change God, then you are correct. This is not what prayer is for though. The purpose of prayer is to change us by bringing us out of ourselves into God.
, making god happy, or sad, or angry, impossible, , etc.
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Actually, this bit is technically correct. God does not have emotions as we understand them. We use those words to describe Him because that is the only way our limited minds can comprehend Him.
Don’t dream up a bunch of special cases to show that God can have these attributes but supposedly suspend them to answer our prayers,
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Wouldn’t dream of it. God suspends none of His attributes to answer our prayers. From God’s perspective, the answer to our prayers has already happened, and is happening, and will happen. Our prayers were factored into the equation throughout eternity, and God’s decision has been the same throughout eternity. You are moving into the realm of timelessness here, which is a bit hard to comprehend for someone who hasn’t studied it in depth, and even for those who have.
get angry at our actions, and so on.
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Again, God doesn’t “get angry” in the sense that we understand it. He has a righteous wrath against sin, but this wrath is as constant as His mercy, His justice, and His Love. We use the language of anger because that is the only way we can comprehend it, however incomplete that understanding may be.
Either he has them or he doesn’t have them. If he does then he is a very out of touch god. If he doesn’t, then why does the church insist he does?
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He has them. You sound like someone who’s only now starting to study these things. Volumes and volumes have been written on the subject. You’re at the start of a really incredible and humbling journey ^^
 
laocmo said:
Here is a list of God’s supposed attributes as approved by the Church.

Transcendent = incomprehensible, existing outside of space and time, unknowable and unsearchable by reasoning, impossible to understand or experience

Immutable = Immutable objects are simply objects whose state cannot change

Impassible = does not experience pain or pleasure from the actions of another being

Incorporeal = having no physical body or being without physical substance

Infinite = without any limits, being endless, immeasurable

Omnipotent = the power to effect whatever is not intrinsically impossible

Omnipresent = the power of being present everywhere at the same time

Omniscient = the capacity to know everything that there is to know

How can you honestly believe in such a god? Careful analysis of these attributes make prayer worthless, making god happy, or sad, or angry, impossible, , etc. Don’t dream up a bunch of special cases to show that God can have these attributes but supposedly suspend them to answer our prayers, get angry at our actions, and so on. Either he has them or he doesn’t have them. If he does then he is a very out of touch god. If he doesn’t, then why does the church insist he does?
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I don’t even know where to start with what’s wrong with this I have a speech that I have to give tomorrow so let me just take a little time to tell you something that I think you’ll need to hear maybe you should actually read what the Church teaches on these things instead of making assumptions based on what you see or read on the internet. Jesus loves you, God bless
 
ProdglArchitect said:
He has them. You sound like someone who’s only now starting to study these things. Volumes and volumes have been written on the subject. You’re at the start of a really incredible and humbling journey ^^
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And THAT is the key word. One approaches his study of God in humility, knowing first of all our place next to his and that we will never fully understand all things about him. How could we? He is the Almighty; we are merely finite creatures.

“How can you honestly believe in such a god (sic)?” is not an expression of that humility. The “careful analysis” our OP purports to make does not take into consideration things like God’s divine providence, secundae causae, anthropomorphisms and condescension. Rather, it just tends toward, I don’t understand how to reconcile these things, so they must be wrong.

And as I said. God has these attributes. But if one thinks about his being “out of touch” look at a crucifix, and try to say that again.
 
laocmo said:
… How can you honestly believe in such a god? Careful analysis of these attributes make prayer worthless, making god happy, or sad, or angry, impossible, etc. Don’t dream up a bunch of special cases to show that God can have these attributes but supposedly suspend them to answer our prayers, get angry at our actions, and so on. Either he has them or he doesn’t have them. If he does then he is a very out of touch god. If he doesn’t, then why does the church insist he does?
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Impassible = can’t be manipulated by wheedling. Only listens to people of straightforward attitude.

Immutable = doesn’t waver from His purpose.

He wills us to participate in His purpose. He is going to ask how many people we cared about enough to ask Him to help them. (It might not only be us - the point is, did we want a share in it?) And He is going to ask us whether we realised he can help us in our needs too. Life is going to be rough for us all.

Tell us how well you identify with Abraham’s journey.
 
**Blessed is the one who acknowledges our Creator and His wonders, and who confesses that He is not to be questioned about what He does. **
Mirzah Husayn Ali
 
Transcendent = incomprehensible, existing outside of space and time, unknowable and unsearchable by reasoning, impossible to understand or experience
When revealed by the Transcendent One he can be known and understood.

Immutable = Immutable objects are simply objects whose state cannot change
You are thinking that the movement of Change is all movement. There is the movement of Operation, which is the movement of God (as our dear Lord said, “My Father is always working.”

Impassible = does not experience pain or pleasure from the actions of another being
God is always in the state of satisfaction, fully IN ACT, therefor always in the state of Joy and Delighting in his being (and in ours)

Incorporeal = having no physical body or being without physical substance
He assumed human being to walk among us, and is in his body among us now.

Infinite = without any limits, being endless, immeasurable
And his whole being, his Holy Spirit, he puts in each of us, the infinite God fully and completely in each of his own.

Omnipotent = the power to effect whatever is not intrinsically impossible
And he does so with a “sweet ordering” (Wisdom)

Omnipresent = the power of being present everywhere at the same time
Actually, everywhere is in him.

Omniscient = the capacity to know everything that there is to know
And he teaches us all things.

How can you honestly believe in such a god?
It is delightful to believe in Him, to call Him my Father, my Brother, my Comforter.

Careful analysis of these attributes make prayer worthless, making god happy, or sad, or angry, impossible, , etc.
What ever happened to you that you are so bitter?
 
If God transcends time and space then he has experienced all always before now and forever so nothing is changing when it is already what it is or as God put it: I AM WHO I AM. That is it, that is all. He IS.
 
laocmo said:
Here is a list of God’s supposed attributes as approved by the Church.

Transcendent = incomprehensible, existing outside of space and time, unknowable and unsearchable by reasoning, impossible to understand or experience

Immutable = Immutable objects are simply objects whose state cannot change

Impassible = does not experience pain or pleasure from the actions of another being

Incorporeal = having no physical body or being without physical substance

Infinite = without any limits, being endless, immeasurable

Omnipotent = the power to effect whatever is not intrinsically impossible

Omnipresent = the power of being present everywhere at the same time

Omniscient = the capacity to know everything that there is to know

How can you honestly believe in such a god? Careful analysis of these attributes make prayer worthless, making god happy, or sad, or angry, impossible, , etc. Don’t dream up a bunch of special cases to show that God can have these attributes but supposedly suspend them to answer our prayers, get angry at our actions, and so on. Either he has them or he doesn’t have them. If he does then he is a very out of touch god. If he doesn’t, then why does the church insist he does?
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How they could discuss about God if God is transcendent? How God could be love and impassible? What is the use of pray if God is immutable?..
 
John_Martin said:
What ever happened to you that you are so bitter?
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The sudden realization that every thing I had been taught in 12 years of Catholic grade and high school and 5 years at a Catholic university was either pious wishful thinking, awarded the most votes in some past session of the cardinal’s meeting in Rome, or silly analogies to help me understand God. Nothing I learned had any proof behind it. I accepted it because my teachers, the nuns, and priests, seemed so sincere in their beliefs, it all had to be true. Then I started reading the history of the Church, Inquisition, Papacy, etc. The results were to recognize that everything I had learned was just feel good opinions, not necessarily facts. I really analyzed the so-called “Gift Of Faith” and concluded that given the tons of unproven facts I was supposed to believe, that was no gift at all but just a naive willingness to accept everything told to me as true because it sounded nice and holy. I could go on and on but it wouldn’t make any difference to those of you who have been similarly been brain washed as I was. Read a little about how the Moguls in ravishing major Russian cities found thousands of citizens had locked themselves in their wooden cathedrals to say many novenas to their holy Virgin for protection. The Moguls simply surrounded the churches, poured oil around them, and burned them down killing thousands of innocent women, children , and old folks. God loved them?? Where was the Virgin as promised at the hour of their hideous deaths??

Another major source of my anger is that so many of my friends and relatives still believe all this stuff. Of course they have no interest in reading history as to what really happened. They blindly following the teachings of the Church as presented in the past. And wouldn’t think of questioning their beliefs. Primarily they fear God and his wrath. And no matter what transpires in the world around them, they always fall back on the excuse that God must have a plan that humans cannot understand. I find it very sad.
 
laocmo said:
The sudden realization that every thing I had been taught in 12 years of Catholic grade and high school and 5 years at a Catholic university was either pious wishful thinking, awarded the most votes in some past session of the cardinal’s meeting in Rome, or silly analogies to help me understand God. Nothing I learned had any proof behind it. I accepted it because my teachers, the nuns, and priests, seemed so sincere in their beliefs, it all had to be true. Then I started reading the history of the Church, Inquisition, Papacy, etc. The results were to recognize that everything I had learned was just feel good opinions, not necessarily facts. I really analyzed the so-called “Gift Of Faith” and concluded that given the tons of unproven facts I was supposed to believe, that was no gift at all but just a naive willingness to accept everything told to me as true because it sounded nice and holy. I could go on and on but it wouldn’t make any difference to those of you who have been similarly been brain washed as I was. Read a little about how the Moguls in ravishing major Russian cities found thousands of citizens had locked themselves in their wooden cathedrals to say many novenas to their holy Virgin for protection. The Moguls simply surrounded the churches, poured oil around them, and burned them down killing thousands of innocent women, children , and old folks. God loved them?? Where was the Virgin as promised at the hour of their hideous deaths??

Another major source of my anger is that so many of my friends and relatives still believe all this stuff. Of course they have no interest in reading history as to what really happened. They blindly following the teachings of the Church as presented in the past. And wouldn’t think of questioning their beliefs. Primarily they fear God and his wrath. And no matter what transpires in the world around them, they always fall back on the excuse that God must have a plan that humans cannot understand. I find it very sad.
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I am generally the opposite of you. I held mire disbelief than belief for a long time. In reading history and the teaching of the church and studying science I actually find this to be more true rather than more false as you have concluded. There are many issues with perception and understanding.

This post seeks to say God cannot be because the OP can not comorehend these natures unto what else he comprhends. Whereas for me these natures make absolute sense with what I understand of things. Many people say you cannot attribute human understanding to these things that comes with a partial truth, humans are vastly different creatures in understanding (there are still people convinced the world is flat) even the bible says it is round and such… ugh idk. So what makes you 100% sure that your understanding is truly the superior one? Perhaps it is? But how do you know?

Let’s assune for arguements sake your IQ is 100 mid-high normal. And I show you a rainbow. Beautiful? You show some excitement and positivity. Now I tell you the stock market is up and you again ezcitement and positivity.

Now you show these things to a person with an IQ of 60, they see the rainbow and react as you. You tell them of the stock market and they just look at you since it is irrelevant to their ubderstanding.

So if you are at 100 vs 60 and something like the stock market gets lost via 40 points… how much could you fail to understand from someone with a 140? A 180? 220? How about a God?
 
laocmo said:
The sudden realization that every thing I had been taught in 12 years of Catholic grade and high school and 5 years at a Catholic university was either pious wishful thinking, awarded the most votes in some past session of the cardinal’s meeting in Rome, or silly analogies to help me understand God. Nothing I learned had any proof behind it. I accepted it because my teachers, the nuns, and priests, seemed so sincere in their beliefs, it all had to be true. Then I started reading the history of the Church, Inquisition, Papacy, etc. The results were to recognize that everything I had learned was just feel good opinions, not necessarily facts. I really analyzed the so-called “Gift Of Faith” and concluded that given the tons of unproven facts I was supposed to believe, that was no gift at all but just a naive willingness to accept everything told to me as true because it sounded nice and holy. I could go on and on but it wouldn’t make any difference to those of you who have been similarly been brain washed as I was. Read a little about how the Moguls in ravishing major Russian cities found thousands of citizens had locked themselves in their wooden cathedrals to say many novenas to their holy Virgin for protection. The Moguls simply surrounded the churches, poured oil around them, and burned them down killing thousands of innocent women, children , and old folks. God loved them?? Where was the Virgin as promised at the hour of their hideous deaths??

Another major source of my anger is that so many of my friends and relatives still believe all this stuff. Of course they have no interest in reading history as to what really happened. They blindly following the teachings of the Church as presented in the past. And wouldn’t think of questioning their beliefs. Primarily they fear God and his wrath. And no matter what transpires in the world around them, they always fall back on the excuse that God must have a plan that humans cannot understand. I find it very sad.
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I believe Jesus promised us cross, suffering, death if we follow him - persecution, betrayal by our own people / families. So, what is so surprising when we are slaughtered?
You read history; I read Aquinas. Who is intuiting the meaning of your knowing for you?

The writers of your histories say that persecution is contrary to the goodness of God.
The Church claims that persecution is what you have to look forward to if you will follow Jesus. "Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you. "

It is the Mongols who burned the churches, yet you blame God or Mary? We are in the world to save the world, the convert the “Mongols”, and until the world is converted, we will be slaughtered at every turn. There is not bitterness toward God or Mary in us as we are burned and whipped, and no disappointment that God or Mary somehow let us down. The did not, they do not.
 
John Martin said: “I believe Jesus promised us cross, suffering, death if we follow him - persecution, betrayal by our own people / families. So, what is so surprising when we are slaughtered? I believe Jesus promised us cross, suffering, death if we follow him - persecution, betrayal by our own people / families. So, what is so surprising when we are slaughtered?”

We are also promised that God and Mary loves us, and will look after us and protect us from all evils. That is an outright lie.

“You read history; I read Aquinas.”

You should try history at least it is a record of what happened, not the rambling hard to understand reflections and speculations of an Aquinas.

“The writers of your histories say that persecution is contrary to the goodness of God.
The Church claims that persecution is what you have to look forward to if you will follow Jesus.”

That is a sick idea without merit. Jesus taught nothing that would merit prosecution of his followers.

“Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

How about those who suffer persecution for no apparent reason like the poor Russians mentioned above??

"Blessed are you when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you. "

More vague promise of pie in the sky.

“It is the Mongols who burned the churches, yet you blame God or Mary? We are in the world to save the world, the convert the “Mongols”, and until the world is converted, we will be slaughtered at every turn. There is not bitterness toward God or Mary in us as we are burned and whipped, and no disappointment that God or Mary somehow let us down. The did not, they do not.”

They certainly let those poor Russians down. They and their children died a terrible death screaming for help from a deaf God and a deaf Mary.
 
laocmo said:
The sudden realization that every thing I had been taught in 12 years of Catholic grade and high school and 5 years at a Catholic university was either pious wishful thinking, awarded the most votes in some past session of the cardinal’s meeting in Rome, or silly analogies to help me understand God. Nothing I learned had any proof behind it. I accepted it because my teachers, the nuns, and priests, seemed so sincere in their beliefs, it all had to be true. Then I started reading the history of the Church, Inquisition, Papacy, etc. The results were to recognize that everything I had learned was just feel good opinions, not necessarily facts. I really analyzed the so-called “Gift Of Faith” and concluded that given the tons of unproven facts I was supposed to believe, that was no gift at all but just a naive willingness to accept everything told to me as true because it sounded nice and holy. I could go on and on but it wouldn’t make any difference to those of you who have been similarly been brain washed as I was. Read a little about how the Moguls in ravishing major Russian cities found thousands of citizens had locked themselves in their wooden cathedrals to say many novenas to their holy Virgin for protection. The Moguls simply surrounded the churches, poured oil around them, and burned them down killing thousands of innocent women, children , and old folks. God loved them?? Where was the Virgin as promised at the hour of their hideous deaths??

Another major source of my anger is that so many of my friends and relatives still believe all this stuff. Of course they have no interest in reading history as to what really happened. They blindly following the teachings of the Church as presented in the past. And wouldn’t think of questioning their beliefs. Primarily they fear God and his wrath. And no matter what transpires in the world around them, they always fall back on the excuse that God must have a plan that humans cannot understand. I find it very sad.
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Faith must be established by prophet and scripture but Church claim to be more holy than them! The doctrines of Church are not sourced from Jesus and Bible. Jesus was sent by God as Himself declared many times in Bible. There are no statements by Jesus which claim to be God or to have divine attributions. Jesus always said Father(God) is transcendent. I cannot understand why Church insist on doctrines. If they think they will lose their validity but that is not true. If Jesus is prophet of God then Jesus was sent in the name of God. So there is no need for God Himself to come. Yet Church do not say God came with divine attributions but as a human nature! And that sounds very problematic and non explaining can prove that.
 
Funny. It was Church history that helped bring me back to the faith.

You look for blessings in this life. Jesus directed us to less worldly understandings of his kingdom. Do you think the Christian martyrs of the first few centuries AD saw persecution, torture, and martyrdom for their Christian faith and refusal to worship thr pagan gods as the absence of God’s love? Far from it. The blood of the martyrs was considered the seed of the Christian faith. Rather than convince people Christianity was false, it converted thousands incredibly quickly. From the earliest days Christians looked forward to spiritual and heavenly blessings, not worldly ones. And they accepted worldly persection and suffering.
 
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