God's Time

[Krebsbach]

Does God exist in time in some way? IOW, is there a divine time? If he does, how can he be changeless, as taught in classical theism? But we know God does stuff. e.g. In God’s time there was a time before he created the cosmos, and after. If God is in time in some fashion, then he, like us hooman beans, is a being in process (becoming). How is this compatible with God’s omnicient knowing of the future. For us, the future is potential and not actual or determined. How can He be all-knowing of the future, even our future, if becoming involves freedom and choice?

just wondering…

kordially,

karl

 

[thistle]

Krebsbach:

Does God exist in time in some way? IOW, is there a divine time? If he does, how can he be changeless, as taught in classical theism? But we know God does stuff. e.g. In God’s time there was a time before he created the cosmos, and after. If God is in time in some fashion, then he, like us hooman beans, is a being in process (becoming). How is this compatible with God’s omnicient knowing of the future. For us, the future is potential and not actual or determined. How can He be all-knowing of the future, even our future, if becoming involves freedom and choice?

just wondering…

kordially,

karl

I believe this has been answered in many threads.
God exists outside of time.

 

[PaulDupre]

Since God created both space and time, He must exist independently of both. Remember that “time” is just a measurement of the movement of objects through space. Everything that was, is or will be in what we call “time” is eternally present to God. That’s why He knows everything that will happen before it happens.
Grace to you,
Paul

 

[masterjedi747]

Krebsbach:

Does God exist in time in some way? IOW, is there a divine time?

No…and no. God exists outside of time. It is part of His creation.

Krebsbach:

But we know God does stuff. e.g. In God’s time there was a time before he created the cosmos, and after.

Strictly speaking, no. You can think of it that way if you want to, but it’s just an artistic description…helpful to us human beings, although technically not quite correct.

Krebsbach:

For us, the future is potential and not actual or determined. How can He be all-knowing of the future, even our future, if becoming involves freedom and choice?

For God, all “time” is eternally present. (“Before Abraham was, I AM.”)
He knows what we will choose in the future, but He does not choose it for us.

It can get a little bit more complicated than that, but I’m trying to keep it simple.

 

[1ke]

Krebsbach:

Does God exist in time in some way? IOW, is there a divine time? If he does, how can he be changeless, as taught in classical theism? But we know God does stuff. e.g. In God’s time there was a time before he created the cosmos, and after. If God is in time in some fashion, then he, like us hooman beans, is a being in process (becoming). How is this compatible with God’s omnicient knowing of the future. For us, the future is potential and not actual or determined. How can He be all-knowing of the future, even our future, if becoming involves freedom and choice?

just wondering…

kordially,

karl

No, there is no such thing as “divine time” and God does not exist in time.

God touched human history through the Incarnation. But, the Godhead is not “in time”. God is eternal, and God does not change.

I suggest the book Theology for Beginners by Frank Sheed.

 

[empacae]

God created space:

X coordinate, Y coordinate, Z coordinate

God created time:

The Past, the Prsent, and the Future

God created matter:

Solid, Liquid, and Gas

and if you can see the pattern already… the Triune was in affect since the beginning.

emp

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Krebsbach:

Does God exist in time in some way? IOW, is there a divine time? If he does, how can he be changeless, as taught in classical theism? But we know God does stuff. e.g. In God’s time there was a time before he created the cosmos,

No there wasn’t - we speak of time existing for God, because it does (in some sense) exist for us; so when we speak of God’s acts, we speak of them in terms we can understand; it does not at all follow that our words are a good mirror of the Life of God; they are more like a working model for talking about that Life.​

There is God - there is what we perceive about God - how we perceive it - and how we turn our perceptions into words. We are very poorly equipped to speak about Him, for a variety of reasons: we are creatures, which means we are limited, as all creatures are; we are body and spirit, wheras God is sheer Spirit; we live in time, not in God’s eternity (a consequence of having bodies); and we are crippled and blinded by sin (which is the really disabling thing). Some people have very great wisdom in knowing God - but even they remain human and bodily; probably only people very like them (or rather, like Christ) could really appreciate what they can; for real knowledge about God comes from loving God with His own Love, not from books.

God (AFAICS) is His Eternity - to be eternal at all, is to be God. God’s acts, are His own Being - He is what He does, and does what He is. is Any element of time or succession exists solely from our human POV. We see things in this “thin and stretched” way - in slow-motion, as it were - because of the beings that we are. ##

and after. If God is in time in some fashion, then he, like us hooman beans, is a being in process (becoming).

God may be “in” time in some sense - but not because time can contain Him. We are in our clothes - they do not modify our nature, nor are they related to our nature. If anything, our nature is related to them by being the nature of the bodied inviduals who are the wearers of clothes. If we are naked, we are still be fully human - but not clothed.​

If we are not modified in nature by what we put on our bodies - why should being in time alter the transcendent God who invented the state of being “in time” ? ##

How is this compatible with God’s omnicient knowing of the future. For us, the future is potential and not actual or determined. How can He be all-knowing of the future, even our future, if becoming involves freedom and choice?

just wondering…

kordially,

karl

Because all creation is open to Him: including all possible states of all creatures, whether actual or possible. Besides, they - we - are so utterly dependent on God that we could neither be nor continue in being without Him. Our freedom is His work, & all our states and possibilities, are his work. (Damnation does not count, because that is our self-inflicted pseudo-reality; which is why it is so hellish; we are made for God Who is Real; not for our own pseudo-real nightmares)​

 

[masterjedi747]

I really hate to be the one saying this…but I think you’re overreaching way too far here.

empacae:

God created space:
X coordinate, Y coordinate, Z coordinate

With only 3 dimensions, yes. But that doesn’t mean that’s all there is. Time itself is actually considered another dimension that we move through…although it’s not necessarily “the fourth” dimension. Physicists believe that our universe actually contains of at least 11 dimensions.

empacae:

God created matter:
Solid, Liquid, and Gas

And plasma…the fourth state of matter.

empacae:

and if you can see the pattern already… the Triune was in affect since the beginning.

If you really want to find reflections of the Trinity, try looking at the human person:

1. Self, knowledge of self (self-knowledge), and love of self.
2. The self-gift (love) of two persons united in marriage creates a third person.

 

[empacae]

masterjedi747:

I really hate to be the one saying this…but I think you’re overreaching way too far here.
With only 3 dimensions, yes. But that doesn’t mean that’s all there is. Time itself is actually considered another dimension that we move through…although it’s not necessarily “the fourth” dimension. Physicists believe that our universe actually contains of at least 11 dimensions.

And plasma…the fourth state of matter.

If you really want to find reflections of the Trinity, try looking at the human person:

1. Self, knowledge of self (self-knowledge), and love of self.
2. The self-gift (love) of two persons united in marriage creates a third person.

Food for thought indeed.

Though the Trinity always takes me back to when I was a kid and Saturday morning cartoons and School House Rock… 3 is a magic number. :dancing:

emp

 

[Krebsbach]

Hey all,

Maybe we should define time. Paul’s “movement of objects through space” isn’t adequate. It is more fundamental to say that time is the succession of events. One ting after anudder.

Now we can imagine the cosmos as one grand series of events starting ex nihilo and continuing into the future. the past is fixed and determined. the present is what we creatures experience in the process of becoming, the now. The future is unactualized potential. It isn’t determined yet. this is time for us mre creatures.

God, as the creator of space/time certainly transcends it. But I wonder if the standard characterization of God being outside time or timeless is true. Revelation teaches that God does stuff. He is active, both in the Trinitarian life and in his creation. To be timeless is to be changeless and to be changeless is to be doing nuttin and ultimately nonexistent. By my way of thinking anyway.

kordially,

karl.

 

[thistle]

Krebsbach:

Hey all,

Maybe we should define time. Paul’s “movement of objects through space” isn’t adequate. It is more fundamental to say that time is the succession of events. One ting after anudder.

Now we can imagine the cosmos as one grand series of events starting ex nihilo and continuing into the future. the past is fixed and determined. the present is what we creatures experience in the process of becoming, the now. The future is unactualized potential. It isn’t determined yet. this is time for us mre creatures.

God, as the creator of space/time certainly transcends it. But I wonder if the standard characterization of God being outside time or timeless is true. Revelation teaches that God does stuff. He is active, both in the Trinitarian life and in his creation. To be timeless is to be changeless and to be changeless is to be doing nuttin and ultimately nonexistent. By my way of thinking anyway.

kordially,

karl.

I assume from your profile you are mocking the Catholic Church by stating you are a Catlik. I guess you must be an atheist!

 

[Krebsbach]

No, I am Catlik and come from an area where there are lots of Chermans from Russia. round here we got lots of Catliks and Luderans. and a few 'ssembly uff Gott and Eefanchelikels.

 

[Krebsbach]

and I wonder whether God can be conceived of as a being in process, albeit the ultimate, supreme and transcendent being. to be sure we poor, pititful hooman beans exist in a limited realm of only 4 dimensions, apparently, and the arrow of time for us seems to go only in one direction. Might God have a timeline, albeit one which is not so limited, and couldn’t this explain things like his omniscience of the future? Living in the “eternal present” just doesn’t compute for me, especially since we say that God is an active and creative being.

Scriptures (St. Pete) do say that for God there is no time, but maybe that means for God he is not limited by our created time, but he experience his own exalted time because he is a being in process himself.

 

[Krebsbach]

Would it be heretical to suggest that God has a past, present and future? To stay orthodox, we have to say that within God’s time he has access to our future and that of the whole cosmos. But if God is the all-encopassing reality that we think he is, then he has an existence and life beyond his creation. He’s doing stuff other than just maintaining the cosmos or created universe.