God's will be done

[Bradski]

I guess this relates to The Problem Of Evil but it came up originally in a discussion about the efficacy of prayer.

In an earlier thread it was argued that certain events occur because it is God’s will. The case in point was the killing of the Amelikites which God ordered (whether you believe this actually took place is not relevant but I assume that there wouldn’t be an argument that God actually has, does and will cause specific events to occur).

A point was made that said that either it didn’t happen or God ordered something that was evil. The counter argument to that was that, as we are not omniscient, we cannot know what the ultimate reason for the deaths were. All we can see, with our limited appreciation of events, is something that appears to be wrong but which, as was argued, must be ultimately good. God cannot order something that is evil.

Fair enough. But a more recent discussion talked about prayers for a sick child. Now this is not a matter about free will - whether we decide to kill or not, or whether it was a free will choice that resulted in harm. The child is sick through no-ones fault.

Now God could obviously decide on whether the child lives or dies. So whatever the outcome, is it valid to say that it is God’s will? Because I have heard arguments that say that it obviously is and although we cannot see any good coming from the death of a child, an omniscient God can. That it’s no good railing against God for what we, with our limited understanding, see as a meaningless and cruel death but which must have a greater meaning.

 

[zyzz]

The whole: “we are not omniscient and therefore we are not qualified to render judgment” is incorrect. Of course we are not omniscient, but that “deficiency” does not and should not prevent us from making a judgment based upon the available evidence. When we encounter a “seemingly” evil act, we do not try to whitewash it by arbitrarily declaring: “well maybe it is all for the best, if we would only be privy to more information”.

No!!! If something “looks” evil, we are qualified to declare it “evil”, until some actual argument to the contrary is presented (not just a “maybe”…). It is not us, the skeptics, who must “prove” that the “seemingly evil” act is “really evil”. We all rely on the duck principle: “if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and tastes like a duck, it is most probably a duck and not a crocodile in disguise”. It is the apologists’ job to show why a “seemingly evil” act is not really evil, that it is actually in the best interest of all the affected ones. But of course they cannot, since they have no extra information.

We all adhere to this principle in all our encounters - when we deal with other humans. However, the believers want to have God “exempt” form this principle. Sorry, it will not fly. Of course God would always be welcome to come and explain it to us, why is it in the best interest of that child to die in horrible pain. Why would it be a really “evil” act to call up that child painlessly, so he could enjoy that “eternal bliss”. But God is silent, so the onus is on you, the apologists to bring forth the explanation. Until that happens, the only rational conclusion is that God does not care.

 

[Cathoholic]

Bradski. You asked:

Now God could obviously decide on whether the child lives or dies. So whatever the outcome, is it valid to say that it is God’s will?

Given our fallen human nature, it’s OK Bradski to go naturally from this life into the next. Is THAT what you mean? Or is there something deeper you are trying to uncover?

---

(I think I see where you are going with this line of questioning.)

You list yourself as an “Atheist”.

You as an adherent to Atheism, almost certainly believe in truth consistent with reason—so do I.

You (hopefully) reject statements that VIOLATE reason (likewise, so do I).

But as an Atheist follower, you probably REJECT truths that are ABOVE human reason (what Catholics call “Mysteries”). You and I would differ here if this is the case.

If that is the situation, we are not going to be able to get much deeper with your line of questioning here because we are really discussing the effects of Original Sin here as well as the mystery of good and evil on this thread and not death and not merely why an innocent child sometimes naturally dies.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Peter_Plato]

We all adhere to this principle in all our encounters - when we deal with other humans. However, the believers want to have God “exempt” form this principle. Sorry, it will not fly. Of course God would always be welcome to come and explain it to us, why is it in the best interest of that child to die in horrible pain. Why would it be a really “evil” act to call up that child painlessly, so he could enjoy that “eternal bliss”. But God is silent, so the onus is on you, the apologists to bring forth the explanation. Until that happens, the only rational conclusion is that God does not care.

Well, no, it is the “only” rational conclusion if you ignore the whole lot that God has revealed and spoken about himself – namely that he took on human nature, taught, healed, suffered, died and was resurrected. He provided ample evidence in his teaching and his actions that suffering is redemptive.

“Rational” conclusions are only plausibly drawn when ALL the evidence is considered, not when much of it is ignored.

God hasn’t been “silent” unless, of course, you ignore 3500 years of Judeo-Christian history, the life of Christ, the lives of saints and the teaching of the Church. Personally, I find more of God’s spoken words available than I can possibly have time to wrap my brain around.

I suppose there would be an impression of “silence” if one turns a deaf ear or makes absolute determinations about what can possibly count as God-speak – i.e., restricted only to what one selectively chooses to permit God to say.

 

[Bradski]

Well, no, it is the “only” rational conclusion if you ignore the whole lot that God has revealed and spoken about himself…

If the death is God’s will, then there will be a reason which we cannot fathom. It would look, as zyzz says, wrong to us, but we are not all knowing. There must be some good to come from it. God cannot will something bad (notwithstanding the concept that you cannot justify the means with regard to the ends which seems not to apply here). In which case I cannot see the purpose in asking Him for a particular result. You would be asking for God to act in a way that is not good.

The only alternative as I see it is to claim that God neither wills the death or the survival of the child, but let’s the chips fall where they may. In which case, asking Him for a particular result will have no effect. He will let the matter run it’s course.

 

[Peter_Plato]

No!!! If something “looks” evil, we are qualified to declare it “evil”, until some actual argument to the contrary is presented (not just a “maybe”…). It is not us, the skeptics, who must “prove” that the “seemingly evil” act is “really evil”. We all rely on the duck principle: “if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and tastes like a duck, it is most probably a duck and not a crocodile in disguise”. It is the apologists’ job to show why a “seemingly evil” act is not really evil, that it is actually in the best interest of all the affected ones. But of course they cannot, since they have no extra information.

I guess the obvious question, then, is: “What does evil look like?”

I mean if evil merely had two legs, feathers and made annoying quacking sounds, then we might be justified in observing that if it “looks like evil, walks like evil, quacks like evil, and tastes like evil, it most probably is evil and not a duck in disguise.”

So before we get too carried away attempting to make duck soup or confit de canard, perhaps we ought to immerse ourselves in the prerequisite taxonomic enterprise of working out the specifics of phylogenetics, cladistics, and systematics to fully determine if, indeed, we understand what it takes to make -]a duck/-] evil, -]a duck/-] evil in the first place.

In other words, lay down a definition or description of “evil” that we can all use to know with certainty that what it is that you might choose to parade before us to test our taxonomy skills is, indeed, a specimen of “evil” and not a duck in disguise.

Assume we are clueless clods or alien visitors with absolutely no idea what it is that could possibly fit the nomination or description of the word, “evil.” We are here to learn, you see.

Does evil have feathers? Does it quack? Does it have a bill? Does taste good with peaches and tarragon?

How would we even KNOW “evil” if it were staring us in the face?

 

[Bradski]

Hang on guys…

If it can be agreed that evil is something harmful done with intent to cause that harm then we are not talking about evil. On the other hand, if you want to class a child’s death from illness as evil, then so be it.

God either wills the child to die, He wills her to live or He lets things run their course and does nothing.

If it’s the first, then for the sake of avoiding a long and fruitless discussion on the matter, can we assume that God cannot will something evil, so the death must be, in ways we cannot understand, a good thing.

 

[Cathoholic]

Bradski. You said:

If the death is God’s will, then there will be a reason which we cannot fathom. It would look . . . wrong to us, but we are not all knowing. There must be some good to come from it. God cannot will something bad . . .

You are not far from the Kingdom. Keep up the good work!

 

[eazyduzit]

If the death is God’s will, then there will be a reason which we cannot fathom. It would look, as zyzz says, wrong to us, but we are not all knowing. There must be some good to come from it. God cannot will something bad (notwithstanding the concept that you cannot justify the means with regard to the ends which seems not to apply here). In which case I cannot see the purpose in asking Him for a particular result. You would be asking for God to act in a way that is not good.

The only alternative as I see it is to claim that God neither wills the death or the survival of the child, but let’s the chips fall where they may. In which case, asking Him for a particular result will have no effect. He will let the matter run it’s course.

Hi Bradski, thanks for the question. It is actually the most common complaint about God because it’s obvious. Most Christians try to apologize for God, but He doesn’t need it. Truth is, death and disease are NEVER God’s will. Jesus died to overcome sin, death, and all disease. He hates these things. Please just read a few chapters of Matthew from 8 thru 12 and see that Jesus always healed everyone. He never went to a funeral where the corpse remained dead. Jesus sent his disciples to heal the sick, cast out demons, and raise the dead. Real disciples do the same today, but there aren’t enough of them.As an example see this story of a true disciple of Christ John G Lake,as you may not be familiar with such people
youtube.com/watch?v=pIwBn3fTLLQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Shalom,
Jerry

 

[Bradski]

You are not far from the Kingdom. Keep up the good work!

As you were, Cathoholic. If I say ‘God does this’ or ‘God cannot do that’, then I am simply stating a position as I see Christians would understand it. I expect either to be corrected or to have the statement accepted and the discussion to continue. But I don’t believe it myself.

 

[Bradski]

Truth is, death and disease are NEVER God’s will. Jesus died to overcome sin, death, and all disease. He hates these things. Please just read a few chapters of Matthew from 8 thru 12 and see that Jesus always healed everyone. He never went to a funeral where the corpse remained dead.

I wonder why he stopped. Healing everyone, that is.

The question is, will He heal someone if you pray for them and not if you don’t. Or is it His will either way which cannot be changed by prayer.

 

[roseofshannon]

The best explanation I’ve found for the dilemma of why a loving God allows evil is:

Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence

Two other personal accounts that have helped my understanding of this difficult to grasp concept have been:

A story by Sister John Vianney (Bedridden for 20 years, she received many visitors to seek her wisdom. Her stories were recorded on tape)

A woman came to see her saying that she was so upset and couldn’t eat or sleep. “You see, I killed a little girl, Sister.”
In pouring down rain a little girl, age 11, had run out between two cars and the woman couldn’t stop in time. Sister told her to go visit the girl’s family and when she did she found a house in disrepair with a drunken father asleep on the sofa in the middle of the day. The mother of the little girl however, told the lady not to despair because God had taken her daughter at just the right time.
“You see, we live in such a difficult circumstances and my daughter had already fallen into a life of sin; but on the day she died she came to me with a radiant face and told me not to worry about her. She had been to confession and was on her way to noon Mass to receive Jesus. Then she ran out between two parked cars and was hit.”

The second account was from some Sisters who visited my Mother in law. They lived a life of poverty and so had to ask people for gifts of food or whatever they could give. My Mother in law asked if it wasn’t difficult for them to ask people for such things.
“Oh no! We are helping others by doing so. We are giving them opportunities to make an act of charity and this helps them on their path to Heaven.”

While I certainly don’t believe everyone should become “freeloaders”, lol, this made me realize that every person in need does cause a chain reaction. Even if we are just in a so called “vegetative state”, (not in need of extraordinary measures like a breathing machine, but food, water, medicine and the basic care one would give a sick baby) we can help others to grow in holiness just by lying there. People will say our life has no meaning but in reality we are helping others to grow in love, and acts of love are exponential in nature.

Since I am homebound with a chronic illness this has helped to give great meaning to my life and counter the feelings of being a burden and uselessness.

 

[roseofshannon]

In terms of why didn’t Jesus heal everyone:

1. His healings were not only a means of showing his mercy, but also a way for giving proof of the power God had given Him to the witnesses of the healings.
2. Even the people he healed or rose from the dead eventually died.
3. As it’s so eloquently explained in Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence, we can’t always know what is best for us in the way God, who knows the big picture, can. So we pray for what we want but always include, “If it is your will, Lord.”

It’s like a kid asking for ice cream for breakfast. His Dad loves his kid and loves seeing his face light up when he eats ice cream, but Dad knows that in the long run it’s not what is best. We are called to have this childlike faith in our Heavenly Dad, while still having a relationship with him where we can ask him for what we desire and He can lovingly indulge us when the time is right.

I find it helps me if rather than viewing God as Santa Claus, I view Him as my personal trainer. He is helping to chisel my spiritual form into a thing of beauty and perfection. He balances painful and pleasant exercises that will help me become my personal best if I cooperate with His plan. Sometimes I cry out for a rest and He says, “No…go for the burn! Keep going…what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger…you can do it and I’m here with you! Here’s a sport drink for refreshment and a towel to dry your face (sometimes provided by earthly friends )…but you still have a long haul ahead and I know you can do it and you will be pleased with the personal growth in the end.”

 

[roseofshannon]

I wonder why he stopped. Healing everyone, that is.

The question is, will He heal someone if you pray for them and not if you don’t. Or is it His will either way which cannot be changed by prayer.

I saw a quote that I can’t find now from C.S Lewis. Maybe someone else can help?

Anyway, he explained that our prayers do in fact influence God’s decisions when they don’t conflict with His will—which is our holiness and salvation. While His decisions were known to Him before the world was made, He also knew that we would say the prayer.

 

[Bradski]

The best explanation I’ve found for the dilemma of why a loving God allows evil is:

Thank for that, Rose. I hope you are well. This part of the link seems to give me an answer:

“We ought to carry our conformity to God’s will to the point of accepting our death. That we shall die is a decree against which there is no appeal. We shall die on the day and at the hour and in the manner that God decides, and it is this particular death we should accept, because it is the one most becoming His glory.”

It would seem that the author believes that his death will be the will of God. One would assume that all deaths would be so that if your child is dying then it you ‘ought to carry your conformity to God’s will to the point of accepting her death’.

That would seem to preclude offering prayers for her to be saved.

 

[roseofshannon]

No, you would do everything in your power to save a life, including prayer.

In fact you would seek friends and family to pray and ask a priest to give her the Annointing of the Sick.

All this would be done with the complete confidence that God has the power to heal the little girl, and still the resignation to accept God’s will if He sees that it is the best of all possible times for her to die.

Accepting death and other calamities is the most rational and healthy outlook one can have anyway. It is the final stage of grief.

Still, there is plenty of medical proof that miracles do happen!

 

[josh987654321]

I guess this relates to The Problem Of Evil but it came up originally in a discussion about the efficacy of prayer.

In an earlier thread it was argued that certain events occur because it is God’s will. The case in point was the killing of the Amelikites which God ordered (whether you believe this actually took place is not relevant but I assume that there wouldn’t be an argument that God actually has, does and will cause specific events to occur).

A point was made that said that either it didn’t happen or God ordered something that was evil. The counter argument to that was that, as we are not omniscient, we cannot know what the ultimate reason for the deaths were. All we can see, with our limited appreciation of events, is something that appears to be wrong but which, as was argued, must be ultimately good. God cannot order something that is evil.

Fair enough. But a more recent discussion talked about prayers for a sick child. Now this is not a matter about free will - whether we decide to kill or not, or whether it was a free will choice that resulted in harm. The child is sick through no-ones fault.

Hi Bradski,

As far as some of the stuff in the Old Testament goes, I think if they had it all figured out than the Old Testament would not have needed to be fulfilled with Christ in the New Testament, where he certainly spoke directly against many practices in their,

Such as the sermon on the mount “You have heard” “But I say” and “Moses allowed it because of your heard hearts, but in the beginning it was not so” and “Lest he who is without sin cast the first stone” etc so I certainly take the Old Testament with a grain of salt.

Anyway, I haven’t studied enough of the Old Testament.

As for God’s will, I believe everything that happens is either directly willed by God to happen or is permitted by God’s will to happen (our free will).

Now God could obviously decide on whether the child lives or dies. So whatever the outcome, is it valid to say that it is God’s will? Because I have heard arguments that say that it obviously is and although we cannot see any good coming from the death of a child, an omniscient God can. That it’s no good railing against God for what we, with our limited understanding, see as a meaningless and cruel death but which must have a greater meaning.

I think that’s valid. I think the perfect example would be the crucifixion of Christ, one can only imagine how meaningless, senseless and cruel such a death would have been at the time. How could God come to save His people and end like that? And yet in a divine way it’s turned upside down to show in the greatest splendor the Glory of God, His redemptive suffering, which testifies to His love and mercy for man.

I believe prayer makes a large difference, however, it’s generally “Please X, but nevertheless, thy will be done.” and if God sees it fit, he will do X, if not, “thy will be done” and “Jesus I Trust in You.”

I also believe prayer is not only about asking for X, Y or Z, but also about helping us endure what must happen, if He does not see it fit to grant X, Y or Z.

As through prayer, I believe much light Is granted to the soul and it is strengthened and fortified.

Anyway, just some of my thoughts. I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

I view Him as my personal trainer. He is helping to chisel my spiritual form into a thing of beauty and perfection. He balances painful and pleasant exercises that will help me become my personal best if I cooperate with His plan. Sometimes I cry out for a rest and He says, “No…go for the burn! Keep going…what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger…you can do it and I’m here with you! Here’s a sport drink for refreshment and a towel to dry your face (sometimes provided by earthly friends )…but you still have a long haul ahead and I know you can do it and you will be pleased with the personal growth in the end.”

I think that’s a good analogy.

God Bless.

Josh

 

[fhansen]

I guess this relates to The Problem Of Evil but it came up originally in a discussion about the efficacy of prayer.

In an earlier thread it was argued that certain events occur because it is God’s will. The case in point was the killing of the Amelikites which God ordered (whether you believe this actually took place is not relevant but I assume that there wouldn’t be an argument that God actually has, does and will cause specific events to occur).

A point was made that said that either it didn’t happen or God ordered something that was evil. The counter argument to that was that, as we are not omniscient, we cannot know what the ultimate reason for the deaths were. All we can see, with our limited appreciation of events, is something that appears to be wrong but which, as was argued, must be ultimately good. God cannot order something that is evil.

Fair enough. But a more recent discussion talked about prayers for a sick child. Now this is not a matter about free will - whether we decide to kill or not, or whether it was a free will choice that resulted in harm. The child is sick through no-ones fault.

Now God could obviously decide on whether the child lives or dies. So whatever the outcome, is it valid to say that it is God’s will? Because I have heard arguments that say that it obviously is and although we cannot see any good coming from the death of a child, an omniscient God can. That it’s no good railing against God for what we, with our limited understanding, see as a meaningless and cruel death but which must have a greater meaning.

Suffering in this life is temporary. And physical death isn’t the end of the line anyway, And goodness and love prevail in the end. Every tear shall be wiped away.

 

[Dorothy]

No, you would do everything in your power to save a life, including prayer.

In fact you would seek friends and family to pray and ask a priest to give her the Annointing of the Sick.

All this would be done with the complete confidence that God has the power to heal the little girl, and still the resignation to accept God’s will if He sees that it is the best of all possible times for her to die.

Accepting death and other calamities is the most rational and healthy outlook one can have anyway. It is the final stage of grief.

Still, there is plenty of medical proof that miracles do happen!

roseofshannon,

I thank you and the Holy Spirit for all of your posts.