How Come?

[NonDenom]

Hi All
How is it that the Catholic church has no clue of how long purgatory is or what even happends to the soul in purgatory, but knows that a child that dies before Baptism
will “rest in the mercy of God. They will not be able to enjoy the beatific vision”, as you put it? Both of these senarios happen after death. Catholics use Matt 19:13-14 as a reason for Baptizing baby’s, then turn around and say that a baby who dies without Baptism can’t know the beatific vision of God, sounds like your KEEPING them from coming to Jesus as talked about in Matt 19.
In Him and Only Him.

 

[DeFide]

NonDenom:

Hi All
How is it that the Catholic church has no clue of how long purgatory is or what even happends to the soul in purgatory, but knows that a child that dies before Baptism
will “rest in the mercy of God. They will not be able to enjoy the beatific vision”, as you put it? Both of these senarios happen after death. Catholics use Matt 19:13-14 as a reason for Baptizing baby’s, then turn around and say that a baby who dies without Baptism can’t know the beatific vision of God, sounds like your KEEPING them from coming to Jesus as talked about in Matt 19.
In Him and Only Him.

Unbaptised infants not enjoying the beatific vision upon death is not defined Catholic teaching. This is an area of speculation.

For example, it may be possible that God allows the unbaptised to choose for or against Him at their death. We are bound by God’s sacraments, but God is not.

If the Church decided that a decision needs to be made in this area, that is Her call.

P.S. We do know something about what happens in Purgatory (i.e. purgation, cleansing)

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

NonDenom:

How is it that the Catholic church has no clue of how long purgatory is .

The Church doesn’t teach anything about purgatory taking time. Once we die we are outside of time and space so may not experience time in purgatory the same way we do while in the body.

Some say it could be the blink of an eye, some speculate hundereds of years. It’s important to understand that these are simply personal speculations and not actual Church teachings.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Lazerlike42]

Because the Catholic Church claims the least authority of any in the world. She teaches only that which was revealed to Her by the Lord Jesus Christ, and does not claim the authority to teach one bit beyond that truth which was given Her. She teaches no more than She does because She knows no more than She does, and She claims no authority to create doctrines by Her own will.

 

[Della]

Catholics use Matt 19:13-14 as a reason for Baptizing baby’s, then turn around and say that a baby who dies without Baptism can’t know the beatific vision of God, sounds like your KEEPING them from coming to Jesus as talked about in Matt 19.

I’m trying to understand you here. Are you saying that by merely postulating that unbaptized babies will not enjoy the beatific vision the Church is able to keep them from “coming to Jesus?” And just how could the Church do that? Either this concept is true or it isn’t.

The Church hasn’t made a definite declaration about it because we simply don’t know what happens to the souls of unbaptized infants. That’s hardly the same thing as “keeping them from coming to Jesus.”

 

[Flopfoot]

Catholic4aReasn:

The Church doesn’t teach anything about purgatory taking time. Once we die we are outside of time and space so may not experience time in purgatory the same way we do while in the body.

Some say it could be the blink of an eye, some speculate hundereds of years. It’s important to understand that these are simply personal speculations and not actual Church teachings.

In Christ,
Nancy

I thought that Purgatory was actually within the bounds of time? Can we get a good apologist/theologian to double check this? I thought I read it in AAA.

Anyway, to the OP, De Fide and Della are correct. Limbo (deied of the beatific vision but not going to hell) is speculation only, not official teaching. And no we are not keeping children from God. God does whatever He does. We are just trying to work out what that is. Hopefully unbaptised infant dead do go to Heaven.

 

[kleary]

NonDenom:

Hi All
How is it that the Catholic church has no clue of how long purgatory is or what even happends to the soul in purgatory, but knows that a child that dies before Baptism
will “rest in the mercy of God. They will not be able to enjoy the beatific vision”, as you put it? Both of these senarios happen after death. Catholics use Matt 19:13-14 as a reason for Baptizing baby’s, then turn around and say that a baby who dies without Baptism can’t know the beatific vision of God, sounds like your KEEPING them from coming to Jesus as talked about in Matt 19.
In Him and Only Him.

How is it that people like yourself claim that all revealed truth is in Scripture yet the revealed truth of God that tells us what is Scripture is not in there.

Ken

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Flopfoot:

I thought that Purgatory was actually within the bounds of time? Can we get a good apologist/theologian to double check this? I thought I read it in AAA.

Anyway, to the OP, De Fide and Della are correct. Limbo (deied of the beatific vision but not going to hell) is speculation only, not official teaching. And no we are not keeping children from God. God does whatever He does. We are just trying to work out what that is. Hopefully unbaptised infant dead do go to Heaven.

I’ve heard of the CCC but not the AAA. What is that?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Reformed_Rob]

I believe it’s safe to infer, in light of the Church’s teaching, that that there is some element of time involved in Purgatory. Let me explain:

2 main elements regarding Purgatory:

1. There is a state where souls of the just receive the unpaid temporal punishments of sin after death.
2. Those souls are helped by the prayers of the faithful.

Now, let me link what I’m saying… St. Thomas Aquinas says, and it’s a basic Catholic understanding, that…

I answer that, Some venial sins cling more persistently than others, according as the affections are more inclined to them, and more firmly fixed in them. And since that which clings more persistently is more slowly cleansed, it follows that some are tormented in Purgatory longer than others, for as much as their affections were steeped in venial sins.

Now, we don’t necessaryily have to believe everything he taught regarding Purgatory. But, regarding time, I’d say that since some are detained longer than others, there is an element there regarding time. I say that because the souls are helped by our prayers, helping their release to be “sooner.” And that’s a universally held understanding of Purgatory. The Church teaches that.

Some visions of saints, seeing friends who “visit” them from Purgatory, tell of the pain there being so intense that they think they’ve been there for years, when in reality they’ve only been deceased for a few days or so. Such stories aren’t to be taken as “Gospel truth” by any means. I just include that to hint at the time perhaps, either due to the extreme purification, or by some dimensional aspect to Purgatory itself, may very well seem different than what we consider as “real time.” But it can still be measured “sooner” and “longer” which are qualities regarding time.

That we don’t know any more than that is not surprising. How can we? Who is able to put a price on the debt God demands for venial sins, and who can know all their sins to add it up?? Perhaps that was a disadvantage of the “days” system.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Catholic4aReasn:

I’ve heard of the CCC but not the AAA. What is that?

In Christ,
Nancy

:tiphat:

HaHa, you know, AAA, come on!!

You’re gonna say “Oh yeah, of course!!”

It’s “Ask An Apologist”

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Ohhhhhhh! Never heard it called that. How funny!

HaHa, you know, AAA, come on!!

You’re gonna say “Oh yeah, of course!!”

It’s “Ask An Apologist”
[/quote]

 

[Fidelis]

NonDenom:

Hi All
How is it that the Catholic church has no clue of how long purgatory is or what even happends to the soul in purgatory, but knows that a child that dies before Baptism
will “rest in the mercy of God. They will not be able to enjoy the beatific vision”, as you put it? Both of these senarios happen after death. Catholics use Matt 19:13-14 as a reason for Baptizing baby’s, then turn around and say that a baby who dies without Baptism can’t know the beatific vision of God, sounds like your KEEPING them from coming to Jesus as talked about in Matt 19.
In Him and Only Him.

First of all, your question is posing a false dichotomy. You are asking about how the Church knows something is necessary (baptism for salavation) and comparing it to knowing how time is measured in the afterlife where, it is widely acknowledged, time does not exist as we now know. So the first thing you need to do is reform your questions in a way that compares apples to apples, not apples to oranges.

Secondly, as has been pointed out, the Church does not teach that unbaptized babies necessarily “do not enjoy the beatific vision.” If you are thinking of the medieval speculation called “limbo” (which was NEVER an official teaching of the Church) you need to do a little more studying and update your info on the Church.

Hope that helps.