How do we understand Jesus descending into Hell?

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I understand from the tradition and the catechism that Hell is the state of having turned away from God. That doesn’t make seem to make sense in this case. Surely the creed does not mean to imply that Jesus turned away from God before he rose again on the 3rd day.

Are we supposed to be (also) imagining some actual physical location, like the underworld in Greek mythology?
 
That was pretty awesome and fills in some cryptic comments at 633 in the Catech.

I mean, it still doesn’t make any sense in that all the souls there had not known God, and obviously Christ had, so it doesn’t solve my question. But interesting and informative nonetheless!

Thanks for the link.
 
I understand from the tradition and the catechism that Hell is the state of having turned away from God. That doesn’t make seem to make sense in this case. Surely the creed does not mean to imply that Jesus turned away from God before he rose again on the 3rd day.

Are we supposed to be (also) imagining some actual physical location, like the underworld in Greek mythology?
That is correct, there is no implication that Jesus was damned. The Jews of the time of 500 BC to 70 AD thought that Sheol (Hades) was the abode of both the righteous and the wicked, but partitioned for good and wicked.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains it:

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. 480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: 481 “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” 482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him. 483

634 “The gospel was preached even to the dead.” 484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

480 Cf. Phil 2:10; Acts 2:24; Rev 1:18; Eph 4:9; Pss 6:6; 88:11-13.
481 Cf. Ps 89:49; 1 Sam 28:19; Ezek 32:17-32; Lk 16:22-26.
482 Roman Catechism I, 6, 3.
483 Cf. Council of Rome (745): DS 587; Benedict XII, Cum dudum (1341): DS 1011; Clement VI, Super quibusdam (1351): DS 1077; Council of Toledo IV (625): DS 485; Mt 27:52-53.
484 1 Pet 4:6.
 
I understand from the tradition and the catechism that Hell is the state of having turned away from God. That doesn’t make seem to make sense in this case. Surely the creed does not mean to imply that Jesus turned away from God before he rose again on the 3rd day.

Are we supposed to be (also) imagining some actual physical location, like the underworld in Greek mythology?
In the OT, Sheoul was the place where the dead, righteous as well as the damned ended in before Christ redemptive work. As seen from the Lazarus and rich man parable, there is a divide between the righteous (Abraham’s Bosom) and hell proper.

In 1 Peter 3:19, Jesus did not preach to the spirits in hell proper ie. hell of the damned because they were already condemned. Hence, it is only logical to conclude he spoke to the spirits in Abraham’s Bosom.
 
The term hell, in English, comes from the Norse theory of the human underworld. While understandably grievous (it’s inmates wished they were alive), this hell was not a place of punishment per se.

The early creeds in English used the word hell in this sense. Only as theology developed did it come to mean the abode of spiritual punishment.

ICXC NIKA
 
That was pretty awesome and fills in some cryptic comments at 633 in the Catech.

I mean, it still doesn’t make any sense in that all the souls there had not known God, and obviously Christ had, so it doesn’t solve my question. But interesting and informative nonetheless!

Thanks for the link.
Jesus didn’t go to the hell of the damned. He went to the limbo of the fathers which was this natural paradise that the saints of the OT waited in for the coming of the Messiah. Like it says in the video in the olden days (old English) the word hell did not mean the place of the damned exclusively like we tend to use it today. It simply meant the underworld or the netherworld or the lower regions. Christ didn’t go there to suffer punishment,nor was he ever separated from God. He went there to liberate the souls of the OT saints. He never went to the place of the damned
 
That was pretty awesome and fills in some cryptic comments at 633 in the Catech.

I mean, it still doesn’t make any sense in that all the souls there had not known God, and obviously Christ had, so it doesn’t solve my question. But interesting and informative nonetheless!

Thanks for the link.
All men know God through their conscience. Communication with God depends on how well it is honed through a virtuous and responsive life.
 
All men know God through their conscience. Communication with God depends on how well it is honed through a virtuous and responsive life.
Yes, I don’t think you can say the OT saints didn’t know God. And many had the Holy Spirit.
 
The Lord descended into hell to shackle the devil, and preach the gospel to, and release the souls in Limbo. Here are some relevant supporting passages for preaching and releasing the souls in limbo.

'Now that he ascended, what is it, but because he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended above all the heavens, that he might fill all things." Ephesians 4:9-10

'Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water." 1 Peter 3:18-20

“For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the spirit.” 1 Peter 4:6

The Apocryphal Gospel of Nicodemus, or Acts of Pontius Pilate; gives an elaborate story of the descent into hell, defeat of the devil, and rescue of Adam and others to heaven.😃
 
This is new to me. The Devil is still out there freely doing his things. I can’t see this in the references you provided also.
I don’t have a Biblical reference, though it is in the apocryphal work I mentioned. I believe some Saints have written on this concept, but again I can’t provide any.😊
 
This is new to me. The Devil is still out there freely doing his things. I can’t see this in the references you provided also.
Yes, from my understanding, Satan and the other fallen angels were cast down to earth (not hell), I believe its said they are ‘waiting within the elements’ until Jesus returns.

Satan and his angels will not be in hell until the 1000 yr reign of Jesus starts, and even then, it says he will be released for a short time again.
 
This is new to me. The Devil is still out there freely doing his things. I can’t see this in the references you provided also.
In this area there are many myths from outside of traditional Catholicism that aren’t actually in Scripture or orthodox Tradition. Many of these stories come from Dante’s great poetic work “Inferno” in the late Middle Ages - which in turn is based on ancient cosmology which was assumed as true (but was in fact overturned by Galileo and others).

This is not to say they are incompatible with Catholic Doctrine - its just that they go further than orthodox tradition.

Scripture has little or nothing to say wrt these stories - though some texts are interpreted/tortured (in more “recent” times) to accord with these stories (eg Isaiah and Ezekial).

The Fall of Satan in Catholic Doctrine is purely a moral one and not some sort of spatio-temporal fall from one of the sub-Empyrean “heavens” (there are 6) to the sub-lunar realm (ie “earth”). St Paul, a man of his times, assumes the demons have authority over “the air”. This represents the higher element of the sub-lunar realm (he is a master of the deepest mystical forces of the created order so, by nature, stands well above man but well below the angels and where he dwelt in natural goodness before his ill will caused him to become more “fleshly” and less ethereal … hence the fall to earth).

Dante has him chained beneath the earth (Hell) because it is as far away as is possible from God (who dwells in the most spiritual Emyprean Heaven, beyond the 7th celestial sphere) and therefore the most “material” of habitats. Materiality is degredation for an angel. Even the earth itself abhors Satan - Dante has him chained at the bottom of a crater. Every star is an angel, located like rivets on one of the 7 crystalline spheres that rotate around the earth (hence 7 choirs or grades of angels, those farthrest from earth are closest to God). Why 7 spheres - probably because the ancients knew there were 5-6 celestial bodies apart from the moon that revolved around the earth (including the sun) in differing orbits with some closer and some farther.

These spheres were eternal and perfect and without change (obviously) and moved in circles (as all perfect things do). The earth (ie the sphere beneath the orbit of the moon known as the sub-lunar realm) in contrast was all change and decay. The moon, even though more ethereal than earth (literally made of the spiritual 5th element “aether”), was also subject to some change/decay as its rough surface visible to the human eye demonstrated. But here decay begins to halt and beyond the moon increasing perfection and unchangability takes over as we enter the 1st celestial heaven (the lowest).

This cosmology explains a few theological difficulties we have with Satans alleged “physical” fall from heaven. We hold that once we are in heaven, seeing God face to face we cannot sin any more. So how did Satan, in heaven, sin?

In this ancient schema Satan was, by nature alone, the greatest of the angels and therefore belonged to the outer 7th celestial sphere. But this is not God’s heaven. Gods heaven is unapproachable and lies on the other side of the 7th heaven. It is the Empyrean Heaven. So Satan did not fall from Gods Heaven. He never made it there like the good angels could.

The cosmology goes on and on and is very coherent and beautiful.
However Galileo and the Enlightenment caused it all to fall apart and we longer think of God or angels or devils being scientifically and spatially present in the cosmos (neither literally above or below the earth) like this anymore. Galileo showed the 7 spheres were in fact the orbits of planets (plus the sun) just like the moon. And these planets were not perfect. They had craters, they had their own moons. And they moved in ellipses not circles.

Now we talk like this only as a metaphor to explain the place of angels and demons in the moral order and how they influence us. Heaven is not above us in the physical cosmos as we sense it, Hell is not inside the earth.

We are still trying to re-unite the beautiful unity of material and spiritual creation that seemed so real and obvious to the ancient “scientists.”
But we are still at sea with no clue how that can be anymore.
Hopefully one day we will find the connections again.

Sorry for the ramble, it is a lifelong interest.
 
Yes, from my understanding, Satan and the other fallen angels were cast down to earth (not hell), I believe its said they are ‘waiting within the elements’ until Jesus returns.

Satan and his angels will not be in hell until the 1000 yr reign of Jesus starts, and even then, it says he will be released for a short time again.
Hmmm, doesn’t make sense. Before Jesus came into human form, the devil was already on earth doing his thing. He was there tempting Jesus. And he is still around today doing his business. If the devil is on earth, then who is minding hell during his absence?😃
 
In this area there are many myths from outside of traditional Catholicism that aren’t actually in Scripture or orthodox Tradition. Many of these stories come from Dante’s great poetic work “Inferno” in the late Middle Ages - which in turn is based on ancient cosmology which was assumed as true (but was in fact overturned by Galileo and others).

This is not to say they are incompatible with Catholic Doctrine - its just that they go further than orthodox tradition.

Scripture has little or nothing to say wrt these stories - though some texts are interpreted/tortured (in more “recent” times) to accord with these stories (eg Isaiah and Ezekial).

The Fall of Satan in Catholic Doctrine is purely a moral one and not some sort of spatio-temporal fall from one of the sub-Empyrean “heavens” (there are 6) to the sub-lunar realm (ie “earth”). St Paul, a man of his times, assumes the demons have authority over “the air”. This represents the higher element of the sub-lunar realm (he is a master of the deepest mystical forces of the created order so, by nature, stands well above man but well below the angels and where he dwelt in natural goodness before his ill will caused him to become more “fleshly” and less ethereal … hence the fall to earth).

Dante has him chained beneath the earth (Hell) because it is as far away as is possible from God (who dwells in the most spiritual Emyprean Heaven, beyond the 7th celestial sphere) and therefore the most “material” of habitats. Materiality is degredation for an angel. Even the earth itself abhors Satan - Dante has him chained at the bottom of a crater. Every star is an angel, located like rivets on one of the 7 crystalline spheres that rotate around the earth (hence 7 choirs or grades of angels, those farthrest from earth are closest to God). Why 7 spheres - probably because the ancients knew there were 5-6 celestial bodies apart from the moon that revolved around the earth (including the sun) in differing orbits with some closer and some farther.

These spheres were eternal and perfect and without change (obviously) and moved in circles (as all perfect things do). The earth (ie the sphere beneath the orbit of the moon known as the sub-lunar realm) in contrast was all change and decay. The moon, even though more ethereal than earth (literally made of the spiritual 5th element “aether”), was also subject to some change/decay as its rough surface visible to the human eye demonstrated. But here decay begins to halt and beyond the moon increasing perfection and unchangability takes over as we enter the 1st celestial heaven (the lowest).

This cosmology explains a few theological difficulties we have with Satans alleged “physical” fall from heaven. We hold that once we are in heaven, seeing God face to face we cannot sin any more. So how did Satan, in heaven, sin?

In this ancient schema Satan was, by nature alone, the greatest of the angels and therefore belonged to the outer 7th celestial sphere. But this is not God’s heaven. Gods heaven is unapproachable and lies on the other side of the 7th heaven. It is the Empyrean Heaven. So Satan did not fall from Gods Heaven. He never made it there like the good angels could.

The cosmology goes on and on and is very coherent and beautiful.
However Galileo and the Enlightenment caused it all to fall apart and we longer think of God or angels or devils being scientifically and spatially present in the cosmos (neither literally above or below the earth) like this anymore. Galileo showed the 7 spheres were in fact the orbits of planets (plus the sun) just like the moon. And these planets were not perfect. They had craters, they had their own moons. And they moved in ellipses not circles.

Now we talk like this only as a metaphor to explain the place of angels and demons in the moral order and how they influence us. Heaven is not above us in the physical cosmos as we sense it, Hell is not inside the earth.

We are still trying to re-unite the beautiful unity of material and spiritual creation that seemed so real and obvious to the ancient “scientists.”
But we are still at sea with no clue how that can be anymore.
Hopefully one day we will find the connections again.

Sorry for the ramble, it is a lifelong interest.
This reminds me of something that I heard or read once that religions that can not adapt to a change in cosmology have all failed.

I was learning about this history of cosmology once. The idea of cosmology that Genesis paints with the floodgates in the sky under a dome was already no longer accepted by the 4th century. Their cosmology had already shifted by then. Even St. Augustine writes in the 4th century that Christians should not interpret everything in Genesis as literal, so as to appear foolish to the world.
 
Yes, from my understanding, Satan and the other fallen angels were cast down to earth (not hell), I believe its said they are ‘waiting within the elements’ until Jesus returns.

Satan and his angels will not be in hell until the 1000 yr reign of Jesus starts, and even then, it says he will be released for a short time again.
We do know that the Devil is a fallen angel and his abode is Hell. Angels do not have bodies since they are pure spirits. Angels and fallen angels have influence. From Modern Catholic Dictionary:

ANGEL. A pure, created spirit, called angel because some angels are sent by God as messengers to humans. An angel is a pure spirit because he has no body and does not depend for his existence or activity on matter. The Bible tells us that the angels constitute a vast multitude, beyond human reckoning. They differ in perfection of nature and grace. Each is an individual person. According to Christian tradition, they form three major categories in descending order. The word “angel” is commonly applied only to those who remained faithful to God, although the devils are also angels by nature. Moreover, “angel” is the special name for the choir of angelic spirits, from whom guardian angels are sent to minister to human needs. The existence of angels has been twice defined by the Church: at the Fourth Lateran Council (Denzinger 800) and the First Vatican Council (Denzinger 3002). (Etym. Latin angelus, an angel; Greek angelos, messenger.)

DEVIL. A fallen angel or evil spirit, especially the chief of the rebellious angels, Lucifer or Satan (Matthew 25). Adorned at his creation with sanctifying grace, he sinned by pride and along with many other angelic beings was denied the beatific vision. His abode is hell and he does not enjoy the benefits of Christ’s redemption. Yet the devil remains a rational spirit, confirmed in evil, who is allowed by God to exercise some influence on living and inanimate creatures. (Etym. Greek diabolos, slanderer.)
 
We do know that the Devil is a fallen angel and his abode is Hell. Angels do not have bodies since they are pure spirits. Angels and fallen angels have influence. From Modern Catholic Dictionary:

ANGEL. A pure, created spirit, called angel because some angels are sent by God as messengers to humans. An angel is a pure spirit because he has no body and does not depend for his existence or activity on matter. The Bible tells us that the angels constitute a vast multitude, beyond human reckoning. They differ in perfection of nature and grace. Each is an individual person. According to Christian tradition, they form three major categories in descending order. The word “angel” is commonly applied only to those who remained faithful to God, although the devils are also angels by nature. Moreover, “angel” is the special name for the choir of angelic spirits, from whom guardian angels are sent to minister to human needs. The existence of angels has been twice defined by the Church: at the Fourth Lateran Council (Denzinger 800) and the First Vatican Council (Denzinger 3002). (Etym. Latin angelus, an angel; Greek angelos, messenger.)
We have to be careful not to take all words literally when reflecting on pure spirits.

DEVIL. A fallen angel or evil spirit, especially the chief of the rebellious angels, Lucifer or Satan (Matthew 25). Adorned at his creation with sanctifying grace, he sinned by pride and along with many other angelic beings was denied the beatific vision. His abode is hell and he does not enjoy the benefits of Christ’s redemption. Yet the devil remains a rational spirit, confirmed in evil, who is allowed by God to exercise some influence on living and inanimate creatures. (Etym. Greek diabolos, slanderer.)
It seems the CTC uses the word “abode” metaphorically. To say hell is their dwelling place doesn’t make sense as immaterial things cannot be located in place as this is a property only of matter in the English meaning of these words.
Hell for devils and disembodied souls is a state of being where we experience eternal absence and loss of union with God.
To say Satan was thrown to Earth and dwells “in the air” as a Power is also metaphorical.
It would appear to mean God allows him to interfere and have some dominion in the affairs of men for the worse.

In this way we can see Satan in fact abides in both hell and on earth at the same time.
These phrases are metaphorical and in fact just mean different things but appear contradictory as they both literally speak of different things places.
In fact, at a literal level, we could say Satan is in three places: hell, earth, the air/sky (which is also validly translated as “heaven” because the Latin for heaven and sky are the same).
 
It seems the CTC uses the word “abode” metaphorically. To say hell is their dwelling place doesn’t make sense as immaterial things cannot be located in place as this is a property only of matter in the English meaning of these words.
Hell for devils and disembodied souls is a state of being where we experience eternal absence and loss of union with God.
To say Satan was thrown to Earth and dwells “in the air” as a Power is also metaphorical.
It would appear to mean God allows him to interfere and have some dominion in the affairs of men for the worse.

In this way we can see Satan in fact abides in both hell and on earth at the same time.
These phrases are metaphorical and in fact just mean different things but appear contradictory as they both literally speak of different things places.
In fact, at a literal level, we could say Satan is in three places: hell, earth, the air/sky (which is also validly translated as “heaven” because the Latin for heaven and sky are the same).
Not the air but the *power of the air *(NABRE):

Ephesians 2:2 in which you once lived following the age of this world,[a] following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the disobedient.
 
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