How do you fight liturgical abuse when

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James_2_24

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You flip on the television and see Papal masses that seem like concerts…

The other day I saw another Papal mass that turned my stomach. Right before the consecration there was a lot of clapping and screaming and whistling for the musicians as well as throughout the mass. If I closed my eyes at this time and listened I would’ve guessed there was a parade or concert going on.

When you compare this to the Eastern Rites or Tridentine… it almost doesn’t seem like the same religion anymore… but a religion that grew out of something that was at once authentic.

What are we suppose to do???
 
James_2:24,

Are you specifically referring to the recent papal Mass in Switzerland?

My wife and I were listening to EWTN’s taped coverage on it on our local Catholic radio station (89.1 FM, in Indianapolis).

Now when it comes to the style of music, I try to follow the old maxim non disputanda de gustibus (don’t argue about matters of taste).

But some styles of music frankly lend themselves to bringing attention to the people performing them. And I believe that the music used at that Mass was a perfect example of it.

However, considering how dated (as opposed to timeless) the music was, I was surprised that anyone did clap for it. The music for the Alleluia literally reminded me of music for theme songs from sitcoms in the early 1980s.
 
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SeanG:
James_2:24,

Are you specifically referring to the recent papal Mass in Switzerland?
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Yes… I believe that was it.

My wife and I were listening to EWTN’s taped coverage on it on our local Catholic radio station (89.1 FM, in Indianapolis).
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SeanG:
Now when it comes to the style of music, I try to follow the old maxim non disputanda de gustibus (don’t argue about matters of taste).
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I look paste “taste” when it comes to “music” in the Liturgy. I think the hymns during mass should not only be subjected totally to taste, but to what is right, dignifired, sacred, and proper for the liturgy

In any case, my main argument is the screaming and clapping in the Liturgy. Its sickening.

I don’t know how to remain a Latin Rite Catholic anymore and offer a pure Liturgy to God. Yes, we have a pure offering in the Eucharist in spite of the terrible irrreverence… but an overall pure and more perfected worship I will seek elsewhere…
 
correction… i may be able to remain latin rite if i go Tridentine… but i am also considering Eastern Rites…
 
I am almost sure that Our Lord is a fun loving God. He is not serious business 24/7. After all - He said bring the little children to me!
As long as Jesus in the center of the celebration (from our hearts) I know He will be pleased with our celebration using music. He created music!
 
James_2:24:
correction… i may be able to remain latin rite if i go Tridentine… but i am also considering Eastern Rites…
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The worse thing you can do when dissatisfied with liturgical abuse is to become Eastern Catholic. There’s a heck of a lot more to being an Eastern Christian than a cool liturgy. You could always just attend an Eastern parish, but no self-respective bishop will allow you to change Churches just because you like a particular style of liturgy.

I’ve heard stories of many “Tridentiners” trying to become Eastern, always with disasterous results. Eastern spirituality is just . . . different . . . even from the traditional Latin spirituality.

I don’t quite know how to explain it, except to say its like an American wanting to become Sicilian because he likes Italian food. It just doesn’t work that way.
 
John Of Cinci:
I am almost sure that Our Lord is a fun loving God. He is not serious business 24/7. After all - He said bring the little children to me!
As long as Jesus in the center of the celebration (from our hearts) I know He will be pleased with our celebration using music. He created music!
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I agree that Our Lord loves music and has no problem with our using all forms of music to express our faith. However, the purpose of the music used during the Mass is to help us focus on God and the Sacrifice in which we are partaking. The music is supposed to respect the tradition of the Church and is not to include secular music styles. This has been reiterated by the Congregation for Divine Worship in documents approved by the Pope! Just as the choir is supposed to be located in the choir loft and never in the sanctuary according to the current rules for the Mass, secular style music is not to be used for the Mass.

What do we do when the Pope seems to break the very rules he authorizes? Pray.
 
👋 As a 67-year old revert, I am constantly astounded by the pushing-of-the-enveloppe that I now find in the Church. His Holiness? Seems to me that he has not retreated on the really important doctrinal issues while distracting the “reformers” with morsels of discipline “arrangements”. A bit like the hiker who throws his backpack to the bear and runs away … to his real job.
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
The worse thing you can do when dissatisfied with liturgical abuse is to become Eastern Catholic. There’s a heck of a lot more to being an Eastern Christian than a cool liturgy. You could always just attend an Eastern parish, but no self-respective bishop will allow you to change Churches just because you like a particular style of liturgy.

I’ve heard stories of many “Tridentiners” trying to become Eastern, always with disasterous results. Eastern spirituality is just . . . different . . . even from the traditional Latin spirituality.

I don’t quite know how to explain it, except to say its like an American wanting to become Sicilian because he likes Italian food. It just doesn’t work that way.
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I understand very much how big of a change it is… I have a few Orthodox friends and talk about their spirituality all the time. I know that I would be on a different calendar… have different traditions, spirituality, etc.
 
Would the Pope have set the ground rules for the Mass? Or was it more the fault of the local bishop?

I personally am far less offended in these particular matters than it appears others are. I understand the arguments. To me, I think there is too much quibbling about it. I happen to believe that contemporary praise and worship music, properly done, can be sacred.

At some point, sacred took on the meaning of a pipe organ and old. Or Gregorian chant.

All that is great and I appreciate it. I also understand that before there were pipe organs, had everyone demanded that music always be the same, we wouldn’t be using those today either.
 
gomer tree:
Would the Pope have set the ground rules for the Mass? Or was it more the fault of the local bishop?

I personally am far less offended in these particular matters than it appears others are. I understand the arguments. To me, I think there is too much quibbling about it. I happen to believe that contemporary praise and worship music, properly done, can be sacred.

At some point, sacred took on the meaning of a pipe organ and old. Or Gregorian chant.

All that is great and I appreciate it. I also understand that before there were pipe organs, had everyone demanded that music always be the same, we wouldn’t be using those today either.
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Gomer:

I’m not talking Gregorian Chant or Praise and Worship in this particular thread. I’m simply talking REVERENCE. I mean they were screaming and shouting for the musicians and clapping for them RIGHT in the middle of mass. At the immediate end of mass is bad enough, but this was right in the middle. This is just one aspect of irreverence… there are many other forms of it that go in…
 
James_2:24:
Gomer:

I’m not talking Gregorian Chant or Praise and Worship in this particular thread. I’m simply talking REVERENCE. I mean they were screaming and shouting for the musicians and clapping for them RIGHT in the middle of mass. At the immediate end of mass is bad enough, but this was right in the middle. This is just one aspect of irreverence… there are many other forms of it that go in…
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James 2:24 -

I think you point out an important thing. Reverence is a key. I think it is always a temptation in these discussions to blur the distinction between style preferences/differences, and abuses. Abuses CAN (I’m not directing this to you, but to all the readers) become a matter of what you do that I don’t like. Tain’t necessarily so. 🙂

Do liturgical abuses exist? Assuredly so.

Do confusions exist between likes and dislikes. Assuredly.

Is a style or a preference (i.e. “form”) to carry the same weight as the CONTENT (substance) of a liurgy? Assuredly not.

Part of the formula includes taking the log out of our own eyes before we go to work on the specks in someone else’s eyes.
 
Did the Pope condone the clapping and whistling? When the Pope travels it is up to bishop of that diocese to set everything up. The Church’s hierarchy doesn’t allow the Pope to come in and change things for his celebrations of Mass. If you have ever been to a Mass at St. Peter’s in the Vatican you would see how the Pope wants Mass celebrated. The Pope can expell all the air he wants but he is not going to stop people form clapping for him. Reverence is largely lost in groups that are that big. Even at St. Peter’s there was clapping when the Pope faltered, to encourage him on…albiet not during the conscecration of the Eucharist. You don’t see this sort of activity in Eastern or other churches as much because they tend to have much smaller Divine Liturgies.

Just give Pope John Paul II a break.
 
James_2:24:
Gomer:

I’m not talking Gregorian Chant or Praise and Worship in this particular thread. I’m simply talking REVERENCE. I mean they were screaming and shouting for the musicians and clapping for them RIGHT in the middle of mass. At the immediate end of mass is bad enough, but this was right in the middle. This is just one aspect of irreverence… there are many other forms of it that go in…
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I appreciate that. I did not see the Mass in question. I suggest the Pope had little to do with it.

I only make my comments because I hear a lot of opinions along the lines of “guitars and drums have no place in Mass.” And because that person has such an opinion, anyone who disagrees is often an irreverent schlub.

I happen to differ in that opinion. I agree that there is a reverence necessary in Mass. I alos note that Mass is about worship, praise, joy, and thanksgiving. It depends on the feast being celebrated, the season, the part of the Mass, etc. Of course the Liturgy of the Eucharist should always be very reverent, and applause directed towards “performers” is not appropriate. But I tend to get a little irked when the discussions about style of music start getting debated. Most people I know who enjoy more contemporary music also very much appreciate more traditional, sacred music. I find many of the traditionalists very judgmental and downright intolerant regarding more contemporary music, however.

OK, maybe I’ve gone on a tangent. Sorry.
 
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Mjohn1453:
Did the Pope condone the clapping and whistling? When the Pope travels it is up to bishop of that diocese to set everything up. The Church’s hierarchy doesn’t allow the Pope to come in and change things for his celebrations of Mass. If you have ever been to a Mass at St. Peter’s in the Vatican you would see how the Pope wants Mass celebrated. The Pope can expell all the air he wants but he is not going to stop people form clapping for him. Reverence is largely lost in groups that are that big. Even at St. Peter’s there was clapping when the Pope faltered, to encourage him on…albiet not during the conscecration of the Eucharist. You don’t see this sort of activity in Eastern or other churches as much because they tend to have much smaller Divine Liturgies.

Just give Pope John Paul II a break.
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My problem with your position is that the Pope never seems to punish, or even admonish, bishops who persistently fail to adhere to the liturgical laws; even at the liturgies they set up at which HE will preside. If he did, I would expect to see less of this happening. I also disagree that it is necessarily the case that there will necessarily be less reverence at Masses with huge congregations; even if the overwhelming majority of them are young.
 
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theMutant:
even if the overwhelming majority of them are young.
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You do not give enough credit to the “young” I am 25 years old and been back actively in the Church since 17. The younger crowd seems to put the middle-aged, older crowd to shame in terms of reverence. Many of us are going Eastern or Tridentine due to so many Latin Rite N.O. liturgies being hijacked.
 
Have we abused the word “abuse” enough, or should we flail on it some more?

Like the Pope approved of the clapping and whistles?
Hardly.

Like the Bishop had anything to do with it, or any means of controlling it or preventing it?
Hardly.

The people who were irreverant were probably poorly catechised. Shame on their teachers.

Shame on them? They were at the Mass, which can’t be said for something like 60 to 70% of Catholics.
Hoorah for them.

Things were better before Vatican II, more holy, more reverent?
Either you weren’t there, or you have an extremely selective memory.

Will most people do better if they are properly catechised, led, and shown what to do? In my humble experience, they will. Especially if those catechizing, leading, and showing do it with humility and kindness.

But if by those who are judgemental, proud, haughty, then not likely.
 
I think we have to remember that this occured in a country that is only something like 1% Catholic, and so secular they make the 9th Circuit court look like Fundamentalists. It’s great that these people even showed up for the Papal Mass. I’m sure they haven’t been catechized nearly as much as we have here in the U.S., which is pitiful. They were excited to see the Pope, and don’t know how to act. Could the Pope foresee that they were going to behave like that? No. Could the Bishop? Probably not. And we don’t know if the Bishop or faithful were “scolded” or not. They may have been. Why assume they weren’t just because it wasn’t reported? Was the Pope supposed to stop the Mass to yell at them? I think we need to clean up our own liturgical abuses before we worry about another country (with a different culture).
 
Surely the Pope’s advisers could tell the bishop who organized the ‘Mass’ that there was not to be a carnival atmosphere. Like the president of the US or the queen of England goes somewhere and just puts up with whatever ceremony is put together. There exists an established protocol for official events and visits. Why the Vatican is permitting the laity to be scandalized by such ‘Masses’ and then putting out documents like Redemptionis Sacramentum which deal with abused of the Mass and expecting them to be obeyed? It looks like a case of say one thing and do another. :mad:

Lex orandi lex credenti - as you pray so you believe.
 
]I am almost sure that Our Lord is a fun loving God. He is not serious business 24/7. After all - He said bring the little children to me!
As long as Jesus in the center of the celebration (from our hearts) I know He will be pleased with our celebration using music. He created music!

The Mass is both a sacrifice and a sacred banquet and we Catholics do have music apt for Mass. It is just that this Catholic, who grew-up with the old Rite is doomed to never hearing such sacred music, because despite the fact that nearly two score years after Vat 2 promised to give Gregorian Chant pride of place, we Catholics are chastised by hearing the St. Louis Jebbies.
The only place I can hear real Christian music is by driving 90 miles one way to an Indult Mass or listening to Palestrina’s Missae Papae Marcellus on my CD player in my car.
I guess it’s the new springtime or something…
 
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